Come Let Us Reason Together

Skinski7 · Dec 18, 2012

I sent this question out to all the churches in a particular which had a website online.

Here a reply which is very typical of the answers I received back.

The above is pretty much the general consensus view held by the vast majority of pastors in the church system. It does not matter which denomination these answers come from, they all pretty much answer in the same way.

They will say that mercy and forgiveness is not contingent on the sinful conduct being forsaken but is rather contingent on surrendering to Jesus and accepting Him as savior. These pastors will always state that the sin can continue but that the sinner will have a desire to stop at some stage.

Due to this view these pastors will never teach the people in their congregation that the forgiveness of God is conditional on the forsaking of sinful behaviour.

The vast majority on the Christian Chat Bible Forums hold the same view I fear.

I have indeed noticed a pattern after corresponding and communicating with literally hundreds of pastors. The pattern is clearly that they are preaching the Gospel in a far different manner than that of the early church and they are also preaching a completely different message than the early church preached. They may espouse Christian terminology but the meanings are very different from what I clearly see in Scripture.

Yet is this what the Bible really teaches?

Let us reason together. What does the Bible actually teach?

These scriptures do exist in the Bible...

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Those scriptures clearly state, without question, that the conduct of a sinner must change BEFORE God grants mercy and forgiveness. Those scriptures clearly do teach that.

Jesus clearly taught that people must repent or perish.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

The above does, without question, teach that Jesus Christ himself taught that if one does not repent then they will most certainly perish.

The question we have to ask ourselves is what did Jesus mean by repentance? Did Jesus mean that the wicked must forsake his way and that the unrighteous must forsake their thought and return to the Lord that they not perish?

In Matthew 12:41 Jesus clearly referred to Nineveh as an example of repentance.

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

If you turn to the Book of Jonah we can find reference to what Jesus was talking about. In Chapter 3 it says...

Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

In this passage we clearly see that the people of Nineveh actually believed God (in regards to the preaching of Jonah) and that they proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth. Even the king took off his robe and put on sackcloth and sat in ashes. The king then made sure it was proclaimed and published throughout his kingdom that the people should fast and they should turn from their evil ways.

It is also clear that in doing this the king did not presume that God would grant them a reprieve of their impending doom for he said, "who can tell of God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not."

The passage also demonstrates God seeing the deeds of these people, that they turned from their wicked ways, and God in His mercy decided to not to destroy them.

Clearly those in Nineveh "repented" and thus did not "perish."

Jonah Chapter 3 clearly lines up with Proverbs 28:13, Jer 26:13, Isa 55:7 and Isa 1. The evil conduct had to be forsaken before mercy was granted.

Is this what is being taught in the church system today? Clearly it is not because the above response from the pastor above is very typical. I have literally contracted hundreds of pastors with very similar questions and they all respond in basically the same way. I have only found FOUR exceptions who "appeared" to state that the sin must stop. Only TWO of these FOUR, upon further query, were clear and steadfast that all known evil conduct must cease before God will grant forgiveness.

I know of two other Pastors whom I did not approach by email but have actually spoken to who have told me that the all known rebellion to God must cease before forgiveness is granted.

Jesus spoke about the lost sheep and repentance in Luke Chapter 15.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Jesus then spoke of the woman who diligently searches for the lost coin and how she rejoices when she finds that coin. Jesus connects this example to the joy in presence of the angels due to the repentant sinner who is found by God.

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Luk 15:9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

After all God is very patient and does not want any sinners to perish, He would prefer they all come to repentance. Repent or perish just like in Luke 15.

2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

As we look further in Luke 15 we see Jesus then give the parable of the Prodigal Son. In the parable the son was lost and dead (Luk 15:32) yet he was found and made alive (Luk 15:32).

When the prodigal son was in his dead state did he do anything that could be related to this repentance we looked at so far? Let's take a look.

We first see that at the start of the parable that the son is with the father yet he wants to go and do his own thing (Luk 15:12). Thus he leaves his father and goes far away and wastes his substance with riotous living (Luk 15:13). Due to this lifestyle he ends up in a mess and finds himself in a pig pen, an especially filthy outcome in the context of a Jewish parable because swine is considered unclean.

Yet what happened then? Well let's take a look at what Jesus said...

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

In the above passage we see that the son had a change of mind. He came to his senses. He recognised that he was in a mess and that he would have been much better off had he stayed with his father, even the servants had it better than he did.

He then made a decision to do something. What did he decide to do? He decided that he would go back to his father and confess his sinful conduct and that we was not worthy to be called his son, he would plead to be made a lowly servant.

Is this all that happened? Let's read on as Jesus continues...

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

The son actually got up out of the pig pen and went back to the father. Yet when he was still a great way off the Father responded. The Father did not wait for him to come all the way home, the father saw what the son was doing and responded with mercy and then restored him.

Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Does this parable fit the pattern of Ninveh? Does this parable fit the pattern of Isa 55:7, Jer 26:13, Isa 1, Pro 28:13? Does this parable fit the context of the first few verses of Luke where Jesus speaks about that which is lost being found? Did that which was lost have to do anything?

I think the answer to all those questions is self evident. The answers are very obvious.

Yet if you bring this message into the church system, the message that a sinner must forsake their rebellion and return to God (yield to Him) as a CONDITION THAT MUST BE MET in order that forgiveness be granted by God you will be met with very strong resistance.

The modern Church System objects to this message because they do not preach repentance in this way. They preach repentance in such a way that a sinner simply must have a "desire" to forsake their sin and thus the actual forsaking of the evil conduct is not a condition that must be met before mercy is granted.

One of the common objections I find is people will accuse me of trying to establish my own righteousness and therefore this teaching of "having to forsake all known rebellion in repentance" actually nullifies or cancels out the grace of God. A common view is that if one were able to actually forsake their rebellion (like the prodigal son) then they would not need Jesus.

Is the above paragraph an accurate representation of the repentance I have clearly illustrated above with Scripture? Is the forsaking of rebellion to God as a condition for forgiveness to be granted really an act of self-righteousness?

Many will often quote Isa 64:5 which says this...

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

That verse is used to support the premise that ANYTHING you try to do is as a filthy rag before God. Is that true?

Is Isaiah speaking in the context of Abel of whom the Bible says this...

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

Was the offering of Abel to God as filthy rags in His sight?

Abel obtained witness that he was righteous by his faith as did Abraham..

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
...
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Both Abel and Abraham were justified by a FAITH THAT WORKED or in other words a WORKING FAITH.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I think it is pretty clear the that Isa 64:6 is in the context that when men try to establish their own righteousness APART from the righteousness of God then it is as filthy rags. God is the source of righteousness and not ourselves, hence rebellion to God is unrighteous.

Yet what about Rom 4:2,4 and 6 which state that justification/righteousness is not of works...

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Skinski7 · Dec 18, 2012

Yet James speaks of FAITH AND WORKS...

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Many stumble over this apparent contradiction. Yet is there really a contradiction?

There is no contradiction if you understand that FAITH WORKS. Paul taught that faith works...

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Paul even stated the principle by which it works...

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

There is no contradiction between "we are saved by faith" and "we are not saved by works" and "by works a man is justified." The contradiction only exists due to a misunderstanding of faith in the minds of men.

What did Abraham find pertaining to the flesh?

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

He found that the works of the flesh apart from the grace of God were worthless. Anyone who tries to establish their righteousness apart from God is partaking in a vain endeavour. Anyone who tries to cover their own sin via their own works is partaking in a vain endeavour. True righteousness is wrought through yielding to God and the forgiveness of sins is purely by the grace and mercy of God. This is what Romans Chapter 4 is teaching.

If Romans 4 is teaching that we have to "do nothing whatsoever" then it is in complete contradiction with the rest of the Bible.

I have found that many of these pastors I communicate with will quote Romans 4:1-6 as a proof passage that we do not have to do anything except "accept Jesus" and "trust in Him." Yet NONE of these men have EVER quoted these two verses to me...

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

I have not had one pastor EVER quote Romans 4:12 which clearly speaks that righteousness is imputed to those who WALK in the steps of the faith of Abraham.

Why is that do you think?

The reason is that is completely refutes what they are teaching because Romans 4:12 specifically implies that FAITH = DOING. They simply cannot teach that.

Here is another passage that I have NOT EVER had a single pastor quote me...

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Never will they use that passage because to them faith is simply trusting in the provision Jesus made on the cross, faith is not you doing anything.

The truth is that faith is the dynamic by which true righteousness is established in the heart through believing and thus submitting to God. Faith works by love and it is this love that estalbishes the righteousness of the law in the heart. This is why those who walk after the Spirit fulfill the law.

Carefully compare these scriptures and really think about the connection.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The above is how this verse is fulfilled...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So is it really self-righteousness to obey God? No. It is what God command us to do. God is the author of salvation of those who obey Him, he does not author the salvation of those who remain defiant in their rebellion.

Is it really self righteous to forsake your sin? No. It is what God commands us to do.

Does forsaking rebellion to God mean you save yourself? No, without the shedding of blood there is no remission and without God raising us up to newness of life we would still be dead to God. When the prodigal son left the pig pen he did not obtain the ring or the robe of his own accord, the father gave them to him, yet this being so did not negate his ability to forsake the pig pen through changing his mind (repentance).

The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom. In the following passage Paul describes the unrighteous by their deeds. He lists certain conduct which will disqualify people from the kingdom.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The unrighteous above never repented. They never forsook their rebellion but persisted in it.

John warned us to not be deceived.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

God bless.

Indubitably · Dec 18, 2012

Most serious questions have very simple answers: in this case it's repentence. To repent is not only to be sorry for, but to turn away from your sin. If you repent, you stop the sin. If you do not stop the sin, the repentence is not true repentence, but only saying you are sorry.

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Acts 2.
We are commanded to repent for the forgiveness of our sins; not just say we are sorry.

kenisyes · Dec 18, 2012

What if someone can't stop?

Jon4TheCross · Dec 18, 2012

Everyone can stop, easily, and here is the answer (which again points to all things common).

Accountability. Dont pee by yourself, don't go anywhere by yourself, but always have another minister (all Christians are ministers/everlasting priesthood) right there with you. It's so easy, but then a person has to give up their life completely to this accountability. It's an easy decision, but does anyone really want to be that accountable? This is not unrealistic either, you just have to agree that it's more profitable to never sin, then it is to have privacy. In truth, we have no privacy anyways, because God is, and I don't want any privacy, I want more of God forever.

Grandpa · Dec 18, 2012

What if they still can't stop.

Jon4TheCross · Dec 18, 2012

Grandpa said:

You really think someone will do this right in front of the body of Christ? It's about accountability, no excuses. I have never met anyone who could not do all things through Christ who strengthens them, it's just that the body of Christ is not too interested in this type of strengthening, with total accountability. We're going to be with God forever, and all the time, we might as well get used to being with a part of the body of Christ all the time.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

The question is simply, do we really want to die, and no longer be an individual, but an individual part of a constantly connected body?

Col_3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Skinski7 · Dec 19, 2012

kenisyes said:

Grandpa said:

It is not a case of "CAN'T", rather, it is a case of "WON'T."

James so very clearly describes how sin works in the 1st chapter of his Epistle.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. Then it is this enticing lust that conceives and brings forth sin which in the end brings forth death.

This temptation is common to mankind.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jesus even suffered this temptation in exactly the same manner as all other men.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Why didn't Jesus sin? Jesus did not yield to temptation. Jesus did not yield to sin. Jesus was not a slave of sin because he did not obey the lusts of his flesh which if He did so would give birth to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God calls all men to repentance where those lusts of the flesh are crucified once and for all. Those who are Christ's have crucified those the flesh with the passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If the flesh has been crucified with the affections an lusts it simply means that the individual is not being ruled by the natural passions of their body.

The reason many WON'T stop sinning in this fashion is simply because THEY DO NOT WANT TO CRUCIFY THEIR FLESH.

Jesus plainly taught that...

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

There is a denial of self involved in following Jesus Christ. The passions and desires of the flesh, which when yielded to produce sin, must be denied. They must be crucified.

Jesus said this...

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Jesus taught that those who would follow Him must die. Jesus also made the statement at the beginning of Mar 8:35 that those who will seek to save their life (not die) will actually lose it. The simple reason that people "won't stop" is the refusal to crucify the flesh in repentance.

Paul taught it like this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The service of sin CEASES when our old man is crucified with Christ whereby the body of sin is destroyed. He that has died in this way has been set free from the bondage of sin.

Does the pastor in my opening post teach this? No he does not. His gospel message entirely neglects the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires in repentance. Like most other pastors I have communicated with, they preach a gospel which has completely removed the crucifixion of the old man. In their mind the verses which speak of it are referring to a "positional abstract crucifixion" and not something which actually occurs in reality bearing a direct relation to a ceasing of being ruled by the lusts of the body.

Jesus made this statement...

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

A kernal of wheat will cannot produce fruit unless it first fall to the ground and die. Yet if it dies then it brings forth much fruit. Here Jesus is clearly speaking of this death followed by a rebirth.

The modern gospel has completely eliminated it. They teach a rebirth without the need for the death and thus those who are converted under this theology are still in bondage to the lusts of their flesh. They still yield to the lusts of the flesh in the fashion which James describes, they are drawn away by the lusts of their flesh, sin is then conceived which then brings forth death.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Yet this gift of eternal life is only accessible to those who DIE WITH CHRIST. The Old Man MUST die in order that one may live.

Modern Christianity, in general, is a vain attempt to reform the old man by process. It cannot happen, the old man must be put to death, it cannot be reformed.

Peter made this statement...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We have been given ALL THINGS that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It is by the exceeding and great promises that we MIGHT (it is not a done deal) be partakers of the divine nature but FIRST we have to have ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

One cannot be submitting themselves to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God and be a partaker of the divine nature. It doesn't work that way, one MUST DIE first. Only through dying with Christ can we be raised up to newness of life whereby we can then add to our faith and grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

The pastors are not teaching this. They have no clue. They don't preach repentance for they have never repented for themselves otherwise they would understand these very basic fundamentals of the scripture.

One does not need to be some sort of genius or a learned theologian to understand any of this. It is very simply laid out in the scripture all over the place. The whole New Testament is written in the context of the sinner dying with Christ to the lusts of their flesh and then growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as they yield to Him. Rebellion is out of the question if one is going to enter into the kingdom and that is why AUTHENTIC REPENTANCE IS KEY.

If an individual has repentance wrong and they never crucify their old man, if they never die like a grain of wheat, they will never produce the fruit of righteousness and they will be cut off. Do not be deceived for this is what the Bible plainly teaches.

Jesus taught it Himself....

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

When Jesus spoke of repentance in Luke 13 he told a parable right after.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

The parable is speaking about the fruit of righteousness which is borne through abiding in Jesus Christ which is only possible following a genuine repentance experience.

This parable is a direct correlation to 2nd Peter Chapter 1 where Peter speaks of adding to our faith. Peter clearly stated that we MIGHT be partakers of the divine nature because he understood the necessity of bearing the fruit of righteousness. Very carefully read what he wrote...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

When Israel was set free from the bondage of Egypt they entered into the wilderness. Many perished in the wilderness due to unbelief.

God has given us lessons in the natural which describe the spiritual. Israel being delivered from their bondage in Egypt and passing through the Red Sea is a picture of the baptism of repentance whereby one ceases their rebellion to God and is made clean by the blood. This puts an individual in a position whereby they MIGHT be partakers of he divine nature IF THEY CONTINUE IN THE FAITH by yielding to the instruction of God as little children.

Those who never left Egypt in the first place (never repented) and those who turned back to Egypt (turned back to sin) due to unbelief perished, they did not enter into the Promised Land. God disciplines those who He rescues from Egypt for He wants them to be moulded into the image of Jesus Christ, He wants them to be partakers in the divine nature.

When someone repents they are not perfect. God has to do a work in them and they have to yield to that work by adding to their faith. The speaks of this perfecting of the saints in Ephesians.

Yet this perfecting of the saints has nothing whatsoever to do with "rebelling less" which is the error predominant in the modern church system. Due to modern theology not preaching Biblical repentance they do not preach the death of the old man and thus the converts remain double-minded and in rebellion to God. In the Bible the person who has truly repented is no longer in rebellion to God. They have ceased living according to the lusts of their flesh and instead they yield to the will of God as it is revealed to them. They have died with Christ and they have been raised up by the power of God to newness of life.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

The Bible does not present a context of those who CANNOT forsake their sin, rather, it presents a context of those who WILL NOT forsake their sin.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Dear reader, will you?

Skinski7 · Dec 19, 2012

It was so beautiful the day that I stumbled across the following video on Google.

To this day I do not know who this man is, the video was about 5 or 6 years old yet here was a man preaching from his heart who understands the simplicity of the Gospel. It is a beautiful and edifying message and yet it is a plea to those who have not repented to get right with God and beware of the mass deception which abounds within false Christianity.

I was compelled to rip it and put it on my Youtube account so that his message not be lost in the sea of information we call the internet.

True Faith to Inherit Eternal Life

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]

God bless.

kenisyes · Dec 19, 2012

Skinski7 said:

It is not a case of "CAN'T", rather, it is a case of "WON'T."

James so very clearly describes how sin works in the 1st chapter of his Epistle.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. Then it is this enticing lust that conceives and brings forth sin which in the end brings forth death.

This temptation is common to mankind.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jesus even suffered this temptation in exactly the same manner as all other men.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Why didn't Jesus sin? Jesus did not yield to temptation. Jesus did not yield to sin. Jesus was not a slave of sin because he did not obey the lusts of his flesh which if He did so would give birth to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God calls all men to repentance where those lusts of the flesh are crucified once and for all. Those who are Christ's have crucified those the flesh with the passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If the flesh has been crucified with the affections an lusts it simply means that the individual is not being ruled by the natural passions of their body.

The reason many WON'T stop sinning in this fashion is simply because THEY DO NOT WANT TO CRUCIFY THEIR FLESH.

Jesus plainly taught that...

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

There is a denial of self involved in following Jesus Christ. The passions and desires of the flesh, which when yielded to produce sin, must be denied. They must be crucified.

Jesus said this...

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Jesus taught that those who would follow Him must die. Jesus also made the statement at the beginning of Mar 8:35 that those who will seek to save their life (not die) will actually lose it. The simple reason that people "won't stop" is the refusal to crucify the flesh in repentance.

Paul taught it like this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The service of sin CEASES when our old man is crucified with Christ whereby the body of sin is destroyed. He that has died in this way has been set free from the bondage of sin.

Does the pastor in my opening post teach this? No he does not. His gospel message entirely neglects the crucifixion of the flesh with its passions and desires in repentance. Like most other pastors I have communicated with, they preach a gospel which has completely removed the crucifixion of the old man. In their mind the verses which speak of it are referring to a "positional abstract crucifixion" and not something which actually occurs in reality bearing a direct relation to a ceasing of being ruled by the lusts of the body.

Jesus made this statement...

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

A kernal of wheat will cannot produce fruit unless it first fall to the ground and die. Yet if it dies then it brings forth much fruit. Here Jesus is clearly speaking of this death followed by a rebirth.

The modern gospel has completely eliminated it. They teach a rebirth without the need for the death and thus those who are converted under this theology are still in bondage to the lusts of their flesh. They still yield to the lusts of the flesh in the fashion which James describes, they are drawn away by the lusts of their flesh, sin is then conceived which then brings forth death.

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Yet this gift of eternal life is only accessible to those who DIE WITH CHRIST. The Old Man MUST die in order that one may live.

Modern Christianity, in general, is a vain attempt to reform the old man by process. It cannot happen, the old man must be put to death, it cannot be reformed.

Peter made this statement...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We have been given ALL THINGS that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It is by the exceeding and great promises that we MIGHT (it is not a done deal) be partakers of the divine nature but FIRST we have to have ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

One cannot be submitting themselves to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God and be a partaker of the divine nature. It doesn't work that way, one MUST DIE first. Only through dying with Christ can we be raised up to newness of life whereby we can then add to our faith and grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

The pastors are not teaching this. They have no clue. They don't preach repentance for they have never repented for themselves otherwise they would understand these very basic fundamentals of the scripture.

One does not need to be some sort of genius or a learned theologian to understand any of this. It is very simply laid out in the scripture all over the place. The whole New Testament is written in the context of the sinner dying with Christ to the lusts of their flesh and then growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as they yield to Him. Rebellion is out of the question if one is going to enter into the kingdom and that is why AUTHENTIC REPENTANCE IS KEY.

If an individual has repentance wrong and they never crucify their old man, if they never die like a grain of wheat, they will never produce the fruit of righteousness and they will be cut off. Do not be deceived for this is what the Bible plainly teaches.

Jesus taught it Himself....

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

When Jesus spoke of repentance in Luke 13 he told a parable right after.

Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

The parable is speaking about the fruit of righteousness which is borne through abiding in Jesus Christ which is only possible following a genuine repentance experience.

This parable is a direct correlation to 2nd Peter Chapter 1 where Peter speaks of adding to our faith. Peter clearly stated that we MIGHT be partakers of the divine nature because he understood the necessity of bearing the fruit of righteousness. Very carefully read what he wrote...

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

When Israel was set free from the bondage of Egypt they entered into the wilderness. Many perished in the wilderness due to unbelief.

God has given us lessons in the natural which describe the spiritual. Israel being delivered from their bondage in Egypt and passing through the Red Sea is a picture of the baptism of repentance whereby one ceases their rebellion to God and is made clean by the blood. This puts an individual in a position whereby they MIGHT be partakers of he divine nature IF THEY CONTINUE IN THE FAITH by yielding to the instruction of God as little children.

Those who never left Egypt in the first place (never repented) and those who turned back to Egypt (turned back to sin) due to unbelief perished, they did not enter into the Promised Land. God disciplines those who He rescues from Egypt for He wants them to be moulded into the image of Jesus Christ, He wants them to be partakers in the divine nature.

When someone repents they are not perfect. God has to do a work in them and they have to yield to that work by adding to their faith. The speaks of this perfecting of the saints in Ephesians.

Yet this perfecting of the saints has nothing whatsoever to do with "rebelling less" which is the error predominant in the modern church system. Due to modern theology not preaching Biblical repentance they do not preach the death of the old man and thus the converts remain double-minded and in rebellion to God. In the Bible the person who has truly repented is no longer in rebellion to God. They have ceased living according to the lusts of their flesh and instead they yield to the will of God as it is revealed to them. They have died with Christ and they have been raised up by the power of God to newness of life.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

The Bible does not present a context of those who CANNOT forsake their sin, rather, it presents a context of those who WILL NOT forsake their sin.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Dear reader, will you?

You're missing the point. The same thing happens with pornography, drinking, drug addiction, and several other situations that involve a chemical or psychological dependence of long standing duration.

Every Scripture you quote is correct, but none has provided a solution. Your solution of saying the person is just choosing not to stop assumes he can do so. Doing so often requires healing, and gaining understanding, as well as salvation. 2 Cor. 10 states you have a way to escape, not the power to resist. James 1 is quite useful, since it makes it like a 4 step process: 1. enticed by lust 2. lust conceives 3. sin 4. death. At which step are we to stop the process? You say avoid sin, does that mean we should also avoid lust? If so, should we also avoid being enticed? AA recommends that for drinking, but we know it only works sometimes. If an addict requires chemicals to balance something, the lack of balance entices him automatically. He cannot stop being enticed without correcting the imbalance. It's easy to say "Jesus can heal anything", but experience shows that while He heals many cancers, there are many people who die of them in spite of prayer also. In pornography especially, are we really to tell a single man he is never to think of women again, so he can avoid being enticed? Or an addict that he will just have to live with a lifetime of feeling purposeless and rejected, without doing anything to help him realize his true call in Christ?

James also says that we can't just tell a person "keep warm and well fed", but this is what we are doing when we say "Jesus delivered you, from now on, just stop", if he really needs some other help to do so. Mark 8, Rom 6, John 12 all reflect that a person must die to himself, and rise new in Christ. But none of these tells a particular person what in him is part of the new plant, and what must die; without that, and with just the command "stop", many people can't do it. You say "authentic repentance" is the key. "authentic repentance must surely include repenting of all sin, but not repenting of what God has called you to do. How does any of the Scriptures you posted help an addicted person know what part of the needs he is fulfilling the wrong way, are part of God's plan for his life?

Skinski7 · Dec 19, 2012

kenisyes said:

Am I really missing the point? There is a solution and it is in the crucifixion of the flesh.

The solution is not in simply 'deciding" to stop sinful deeds. A true repentance and thus a genuine conversion is wrought through a broken godly sorrow which produces all the aspects needed for the clearing of wrong doing to take place. The godly sorrow produces the desire change, a fear of God, zeal and vehement desire to do what it right, indignation over sin, the desire to make right the wrongs done where possible (offer restitution) etc. It leads to a complete surrender of self to God whereby all the self-willed rebellion stops once and for all. This is not being taught in the churches. The grain of wheat must die, it is a very painful thing, the flesh does not want to be crucified.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

You completely omit the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires in your response. You state that all the scriptures I mention are "true" but then it appears you basically cast them aside and make an exception for sin in regards to addiction. Does the Bible really teach such an exception?

Your initial response of "what if they cannot stop" appears to imply that you believe that there are people who are "saved" who still cannot stop and thus the scriptural teaching that actual forsaking of the sinful deeds is a precondition for forgiveness does not apply in these cases. Where is this exception in Scripture?

If one believes that the sinful conduct can continue (due to addiction) then how can it mean anything but a rejection of Isa 55:7, Pro 28:13, Jer 26:13 and Jesus teaching on repentance? Those scriptures clearly state the opposite of those who make an allowance for a continuation of sin. Even if one is to make an appeal to the fact that we all make mistakes and fall short in ignorance and thus try and connect non-presumptuous sin with the sins of selfishly yielding to the lusts of the flesh, one is still having to reject the forsaking of sin scriptures and the repent or perish message of Jesus.

I think it very important to understand that one cannot possibly discuss the cessation of yielding to the lusts of the flesh unless it is in the context of how it is actually done.

It is very true that sinful habits are a very powerful force to be reckoned with, for the predisposition to sin becomes hard-wired within an individual through long practiced habit. Sinners are "by nature" children of wrath and thus need deliverance from their bondage. The "nature" is a condition of the heart but also has physical characteristics as well. Both pornography and cocaine addiction for neuron pathways in the brain inducing dependency. We all know there are physical aspects involved with heroin and alcohol addiction.

In regards to the heart Jesus taught this...

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

In regards to the physical aspect the Bible teaches this...

Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The root of iniquity is within the heart and the Bible clearly lays out the method by which the heart can be made clean and that method is through repentance and the crucifixion of the flesh. When God sees that a sinner has truly forsaken their rebellion through a broken godly sorrow God will raise that person up with the same power that raised Jesus from the dead.

The Creator of the universe will break the hard-wired bonds of the flesh in those who forsake their rebellion to God.

Paul gave this warning to Timothy...

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If this scripture does not fit what is commonly taught in the church system today I don't know what does. So many professing Christian's have a "form" or an appearance of godliness but they DENY THE POWER.

G3446
Form - morphōsis
From G3445; formation, that is, (by implication) appearance (semblance or [concretely] formula): - form.

The Christian does not have an appearance of godliness but rather a transformation actually takes place, a metamorphosis.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
...
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

G3339
Changed - metamorphoō
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively “metamorphose&#8221

: - change, transfigure, transform.

This change occurs as a result of a genuine repentance and the application of genuine faith by which God responds and raises an individual to newness of life. Of course their is an ongoing transformation after this as one grows in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and comes more and more into the image of Christ. Yet this ongoing transformation is not in the context of an continuing addiction to the lusts of the flesh which will stop at some stage in the future.

Most people I speak to truly believe that the ongoing growth in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as we are conformed more and more into His image is in the context of rebelling less and less. Thus they believe that salvation is not really being set free from the bondage of sin but is rather a position one holds initially and that the actual redemption from all iniquity is something that takes place in the future. If that is truly the case then the scriptures which clearly teach that forgiveness is conditional on the forsaking of wicked conduct have to be thrown out.

If the rebellion continues after salvation then it means that the unrighteous can indeed inherit the kingdom which directly contradicts many scriptures. I have though tabout this in the context of the "imputed righteousness of Christ" doctrine and it seems apparent to me that this particular doctrine was created in order to deal with this contradiction. Thus you can be MANIFESTLY unrighteous and yet POSITIONALLY righteous. That is EXACTLY what the gnostics taught yet modern Christian theology teaches the same thing today.

The early church did not teach that the obedient track record of Jesus is credited to the believers account. They did not teach that the righteousness of Jesus cloaks the unrighteousness of the sinner. The early church clearly preached a message of purity and holiness whereby he who does what is right is righteous, exactly as John taught in his first epistle. Outward deeds are a reflection of the inward condition of the heart. That is what the Bible clearly teaches from cover to cover.

Here is another response from a pastor I received in regards to the question in my original post...

Practically every pastor believes in this abstract provision of salvation which a believer possesses while they still continue on in their sin. Thus they totally disconnect "deeds" from "salvation."

I have spoken at length about this with Mike DeSario because it was him and a man called Dan who initially came up with the idea of specifically asking a cross section of pastors about sin, salvation and forgiveness. One of the questions which they asked really blew the lid off of this deception and exposed it for what it is was the child molester question. It was quite an offensive sounding question and Mike did not think pastors would answer it. Yet they did, they responded by the hundreds.

As horrible as it sounds the pastors were clearly admitting that they truly believed that a child molester could enter the kingdom of heaven whilst still engaged actively in that sin.

State of Emergency

When I first came across that article it blew my mind for it began to unravel for me what was going on in the church system. I began to see that salvation was being preached in an abstract manner and that these pastors were in fact teaching that YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE.

The very first lie of Satan is the bedrock of modern Christian theology today.

How did this happen? It has happened as a result of Satan perverting the preaching of repentance whereby the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires has been completely eliminated. Thus converts are coming into the faith still in bondage to their sin as they remain double-minded walking in the flesh with an outward form of godliness.

Thus, due to this, the entire Gospel message has been redefined to fit around the continuation of sin. Scriptures like Romans 7, 1Cor 3, 1Joh 1:8 are all used to support ongoing sin. Yet if one is to read early church writings one will not find the scriptures being used in this fashion. In fact I cannot find a single reference to Romans 7 being the present Christian walk until after Augustine in the 4th century.

We have the Didache (50-120 A.D.)
Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

Polycarps letter to the Philippians (110-140 A.D.)
Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

Clement of Rome letter to the Corinthians (80-140A.D.)
First Clement: Clement of Rome

Irenaeus of Lyons (175-185 A.D.) who wrote a lot of material which is still available today.
Irenaeus of Lyons

As well as quite a few other writings from men who were actual students of the apostles. Polycarp for example was taught by John. Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp. Tradition puts Clement of Rome a contemporary of Paul.

While these writings are not canonical they paint a very clear picture of how the Gospel was preached in the first 100 years of the church. These men all preached that you stopped sinning, they preached holiness, they preached that you had to be diligent and remain steadfast in the faith in order to enter the kingdom. None of them preached the message that is being preached today. That message simply did not exist. None of them taught that Chrisitan's sinned in through word and deed every day, none of them taught that a Christian was carnal and sold under sin, none of them taught that a Christian is sinning and that if they deny it they are liars. They did not use the scriptures in that way.

They certainly taught that the sins of the flesh must cease before forgiveness is granted, which is a very different message than what is commonly preached today in the system, yet few really seem to care.

I have audio of seminary lectures where the lecturer is speaking directly against what the early church taught and calls them ignorant people who taught a works based salvation. God forbid that holy living is mandatory in regards to the outcome of one's salvation, such teaching is considered heresy in most churches today. It is simply amazing how watered down and perverted the church system has become.

cfultz3 · Dec 19, 2012

kenisyes said:

You're missing the point. The same thing happens with pornography, drinking, drug addiction, and several other situations that involve a chemical or psychological dependence of long standing duration.

Every Scripture you quote is correct, but none has provided a solution. Your solution of saying the person is just choosing not to stop assumes he can do so. Doing so often requires healing, and gaining understanding, as well as salvation. 2 Cor. 10 states you have a way to escape, not the power to resist. James 1 is quite useful, since it makes it like a 4 step process: 1. enticed by lust 2. lust conceives 3. sin 4. death. At which step are we to stop the process? You say avoid sin, does that mean we should also avoid lust? If so, should we also avoid being enticed? AA recommends that for drinking, but we know it only works sometimes. If an addict requires chemicals to balance something, the lack of balance entices him automatically. He cannot stop being enticed without correcting the imbalance. It's easy to say "Jesus can heal anything", but experience shows that while He heals many cancers, there are many people who die of them in spite of prayer also. In pornography especially, are we really to tell a single man he is never to think of women again, so he can avoid being enticed? Or an addict that he will just have to live with a lifetime of feeling purposeless and rejected, without doing anything to help him realize his true call in Christ?

James also says that we can't just tell a person "keep warm and well fed", but this is what we are doing when we say "Jesus delivered you, from now on, just stop", if he really needs some other help to do so. Mark 8, Rom 6, John 12 all reflect that a person must die to himself, and rise new in Christ. But none of these tells a particular person what in him is part of the new plant, and what must die; without that, and with just the command "stop", many people can't do it. You say "authentic repentance" is the key. "authentic repentance must surely include repenting of all sin, but not repenting of what God has called you to do. How does any of the Scriptures you posted help an addicted person know what part of the needs he is fulfilling the wrong way, are part of God's plan for his life?

solution: He who has suffered in the flesh has overcome sin. Today: he who undergoes withdrawel pangs has overcome sin.

twofeet · Dec 19, 2012

God gave man free will. Satan cannot over ride it, he can ONLY tempt. Addictions come from a deep need in a persons spirit, a longing, a relief from pain, a way to blot out the world. When a person sets their will to seek God for healing rather than taking up the "quick fixes" habbits and addictions are broken. When GODS way is MORE important than how a person feels (dying to self, not an easy thing) then addictions are broken. There is no such thing as "cant stop", God does not overide a persons will and makes people submit, Satan cannot over ride a persons will to make them sin. No one can make us do anything we dont want to.

Grandpa · Dec 19, 2012

Skinski7 said:

Yes, you are. About 800 posts worth of missing the point.

You are not the one that cleanses your own heart. This is not the work of people. This is Gods work. If you think that you generate Godly sorrow inside yourself and you generate your own clean heart with the desire to Love God and you are the one who crucifies your own flesh by the will of your own carnal mind, YOU'VE MISSED THE ENTIRE BOAT NOT JUST THE POINT.

You must come to Christ to lay your burdens down. It's an echange. If you don't believe in Him but only in yourself you're lost before you have even started. All good things come from God. We have nothing to offer Him except empty hands and a broken and contrite spirit.

You are describing the process whereby the man saves his own self. I wouldn't have a problem with anything you say if you would emphasize coming TO CHRIST!!!

People are going to be pretty disappointed when they find out they went through your 8 step process and they still fail. There is a better Way!

Matthew 9:12-13
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Ezekiel 36:25-28
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

cfultz3 · Dec 19, 2012

Where does a contrite heart come from, a product of a guilty conscience or a work of the Spirit? Verses?

(Psa 34:18) The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

(Psa 51:17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

(Isa 57:15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

(Isa 66:2) For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Grandpa · Dec 19, 2012

twofeet said:

I can go along with this, for the most part.

This, not so much.

There is such a thing as can't stop.

What is a broken heart and contrite spirit? Did you give it to yourself? Did you manufacture it from your own will?

No one can make us do anything we don't want to do... LOL

DavEtheBravE · Dec 19, 2012

Skinski7 said:

It was so beautiful the day that I stumbled across the following video on Google.

To this day I do not know who this man is, the video was about 5 or 6 years old yet here was a man preaching from his heart who understands the simplicity of the Gospel. It is a beautiful and edifying message and yet it is a plea to those who have not repented to get right with God and beware of the mass deception which abounds within false Christianity.

I was compelled to rip it and put it on my Youtube account so that his message not be lost in the sea of information we call the internet.

True Faith to Inherit Eternal Life

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]

God bless.

Thank you and bless for this link this is too inciteful

kenisyes · Dec 19, 2012

cfultz3 said:

And tomorrow, he who has had the help of the church instead of just telling him that he isn't repenting hard enough will overcome sin.

cfultz3 · Dec 19, 2012

kenisyes said:

Sorry, thought everyone knew that 'he who suffered in the flesh, has overcame sin' was a verse in Scripture.

kenisyes · Dec 19, 2012

Skinski7 said:

1. The trouble with the crucifixion image is that Jesus was crucified and the nails did not come out of His hands automatically when He was done dying.

2. Repentance is metanoia - change of thoughts, not of actions. That is the Greek definition. Your whole argument is that it means change of actions. Hence your whole argument is based on a mistranslation. You are correct, there is sorrow according to God and sorrow according to the world, and it is this distinction that is worded into the Didache, and the other early writings you are quoting from. One does not know God enough to change his actions upon accepting Jesus. That's why Rom. 12:2, we need to be transformed by the renewal of mind. More in #9.

3. I'm not implying that. The pastors I have worked with over 30 years in such ministries are saying it flat out. You CANNOT get the change in behavior without external help to renew the mind. This is not a one day operation, and is seldom something one can do on his own.

4. Only Jeremiah mentions actions. And he mentions it second, after the mind is repaired. Jesus' teachings, unless you find one I missed, are for metanoia, the mental change.

5. Of course, just like He will heal all our illnesses, some today, some tomorrow, and some in the Thousand Year Reign.

6. You are attempting to apply vs. 5 to those who say, from experience, that some healings take time and help from the outside. You cannot do this, as this is not listed in the verses around it. Vs. 3 specifically lists false accusers, and that is what someone who says "you are doing things you say you do not want to do solely because your repentance is defective."

7. You have yet to quote a Scripture that in the original language supports this. As I said, you are misinterpreting metanoia, and that changes the statement of pretty much every Scripture you are using.

8. This is completety correct. Metanoia implies a choice to let Jesus continue to heal you and a choice to accept every grace He presents. It does not imply that someone other than Jesus can judge when the graces have been sufficient.

9.I'm glad you brought up the Didache. Let's read it all. Where is your baptism sponsors, the prophetic discernment, and the fasting for each person, before he accepts salvation? Where is the wandering prophet and apostle? We have destroyed the early church and their prophetic and apostolic structure of power. Our churches today are mostly weekly repeats of the same non-participational presentation (that's what #6 really applies to). Are you willing to make the commitment to live as the First Century Church? You have put yourself in a position of insisting on the miracles they lived by, without the structure to permit them, and then blaming innocent people who set forth to follow God with the only structure we have, and need help they cannot receive. And please try to understand that thousands of people have started with all the enthusiasm for the word of God, read in English, that you have now, and matured the hard way. You are also in a position of blaming the ministers with lifetimes of experience, who took a step out of the structure to try to get the healings, and matured also, all of whom can quote all your Scriptures by the page.

It's terribly hard to answer walls of text, and to select significant portions to try to highlight the differences in our points of view. I have tried to do so, and hope I did not miss anything important to you.

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