The Fixed Earth

[MahogonySnail]

Adam was a Christian.

Scripture? How it is possible for Adam to follow Christ before Christ was even born of human flesh. Christ sinned, Christ fell. You are saying that a sinner such as Adam was following Christ?

No your incorrect again 'Snail, the Earth is not described as being flat, Now considering that Enoch spoke with God personally in Heaven, I think he would know what shape the earth was.

You haven't read the book of Enoch then, obviously. Stating it is saying things which it does not say.
So you must be saying that God gave Enoch the correct shape of the earth, that being flat.

Throughout Church history there are various people who knew the world to be a sphere.

Any before Aristotle or Ptolymy? No.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Scripture? How it is possible for Adam to follow Christ before Christ was even born of human flesh. Christ sinned, Christ fell. You are saying that a sinner such as Adam was following Christ?

What are you talking about, you little devil?

The Lord Jesus has appeared thoughout the history of mankind, Jesus Christ is eternal, there has never been a time when He did not exist, notwithstanding that he did appear to Adam in the Garden of Eden, that is scripture beyond the scope of this thread, but Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jesus Christ is the 'seed of the woman' this is prophecy given by God to Adam, who believed, it is without seeing Christ, this is what makes Adam a Christian, it is by faith in the unseen, 'the promise of things to come'!

Christ never sinned, Christ neved fell!

You haven't read the book of Enoch then, obviously. Stating it is saying things which it does not say.
So you must be saying that God gave Enoch the correct shape of the earth, that being flat.

I have read the Book of Enoch several times, in fact I have it in front of me right now! Book of Enoch never describes the Earth as flat, it does however desribe the orbit of the sun, moon and stars around a stationary earth, the Book of Enoch is evidence of a Geocentric system.

Any before Aristotle or Ptolymy? No.

The 'Church' is the body of Christ! Like I said Isaiah prophecised the coming of Christ, that makes him a Christian, he preached a spherical earth in the 9th Century B.C., what about Job? Moses? Abraham? all prophets of God, long before any Aristotle walked the earth.

 

[Slepsog4]

The term Christian was given first to the disciples of Christ in Antioch (Acts 11:26). It is only used three times and that only in the NT.

No one prior to Jesus' resurrection could have been a Christian (Acts 2:36).

Adam was not a Christian, nor was Abraham, nor Moses, nor Elijah, not even John the Baptist.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

The term Christian was given first to the disciples of Christ in Antioch (Acts 11:26). It is only used three times and that only in the NT.

No one prior to Jesus' resurrection could have been a Christian (Acts 2:36).

Adam was not a Christian, nor was Abraham, nor Moses, nor Elijah, not even John the Baptist.

Is Christ the seed of the woman? Did Christ appear to Abraham? John the Baptist was a Christian when he was still in his mother's womb!

You obviously have not grasped what Christianity is.

 

[Slepsog4]

Christianity is THE FAITH once for all delivered (Jude 3). It is based upon the atoning work of Jesus Christ (ie, the gospel). The name Jesus was not applied to the second member of the Godhead until he became flesh. The title Christ was not completely accurate in its fullest sense until the resurrection and ascension.

Christianity is the "religion" of the New Covenant of Christ. It did not and could not have existed before.

I would agree that there were a number of pre-incarnate appearances of God the Son during the days of the OT. But he was not yet Jesus or the Christ.

 

[MahogonySnail]

The Lord Jesus has appeared thoughout the history of mankind, Jesus Christ is eternal, there has never been a time when He did not exist, notwithstanding that he did appear to Adam in the Garden of Eden, that is scripture beyond the scope of this thread, but Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Jesus Christ is the 'seed of the woman' this is prophecy given by God to Adam, who believed, it is without seeing Christ, this is what makes Adam a Christian, it is by faith in the unseen, 'the promise of things to come'!

Christ never sinned, Christ neved fell!

The 'Church' is the body of Christ! Like I said Isaiah prophecised the coming of Christ, that makes him a Christian, he preached a spherical earth in the 9th Century B.C., what about Job? Moses? Abraham? all prophets of God, long before any Aristotle walked the earth.

Wrong.
How could they follow someone who had not yet been born? and they did not even know who He was or would be? Jesus did not pre-exist. There were types of Christ throughout the Old Testament, but this is not Jesus Christ, who was born 2000 years ago, as a human being.

The term Christian was given first to the disciples of Christ in Antioch (Acts 11:26). It is only used three times and that only in the NT.

No one prior to Jesus' resurrection could have been a Christian (Acts 2:36).

Adam was not a Christian, nor was Abraham, nor Moses, nor Elijah, not even John the Baptist.

Amen, thanks for the confirmation. I always knew Cup-of-Ruin's kookiness didn't stop just at geocentricism or NASA conspiracies.

I have read the Book of Enoch several times, in fact I have it in front of me right now! Book of Enoch never describes the Earth as flat, it does however desribe the orbit of the sun, moon and stars around a stationary earth, the Book of Enoch is evidence of a Geocentric system.

It's quite obvious to me you haven't really read the Book of Enoch at all. Enoch certainly doesn't describe the earth as spherical.

1 Enoch. The dome.

The portals (or windows) through the sky dome:

In two months the moon sets with the sun: in those two middle portals the
6
third and the fourth. She goes forth for seven days, and turns about and returns again through the portal where the sun rises, and accomplishes all her light: and she recedes from the sun, and in eight


The description of the mountains surrounding the flat earth, and the place where the sky dome firmanent (heavens) meets the flat earth, enoch describes coming to this ends of the earth :


9,10
throne was of sapphire. And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards


Further descriptions of this place (end of the earth) where the sky-dome firmament meets the ends of the flat earth.

And to the east of those beasts I saw the ends of the earth whereon the heaven
2
rests, and the portals of the heaven open. And I saw how the stars of heaven come forth, and
3
I counted the portals out of which they proceed, and wrote down all their outlets, of each individual star by itself, according to their number and their names, their courses and their positions, and their
4
times and their months, as Uriel the holy angel who was with me showed me. He showed all things to me and wrote them down for me: also their names he wrote for me, and their laws and their companies



Recommend reading A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19
By Kelley Coblentz Bautch

Which you can read on google books.

In there it says, 1 enoch only allows one to travel so far before reaching the ends of the earth.

At the ends of the earth Enoch encounters water first, then darkness. The firmament of heaven meets the earth and is where there are the storehouses of the winds.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

The angel Uriel guided Enoch in most of his travels. They made several trips to the ends of the earth, where the dome of heaven came down to the surface. For instance, Enoch says:

I went to the extreme ends of the earth and saw there huge beasts, each different from the other and different birds (also) differing from one another in appearance, beauty, and voice. And to the east of those beasts, I saw the ultimate ends of the earth which rests on the heaven. And the gates of heaven were open, and I saw how the stars of heaven come out...(1 Enoch 33:1-2).​

There's a nice picture here showing Enoch's description of the Earth:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Christianity is THE FAITH once for all delivered (Jude 3). It is based upon the atoning work of Jesus Christ (ie, the gospel). The name Jesus was not applied to the second member of the Godhead until he became flesh. The title Christ was not completely accurate in its fullest sense until the resurrection and ascension.

Christianity is the "religion" of the New Covenant of Christ. It did not and could not have existed before.

I would agree that there were a number of pre-incarnate appearances of God the Son during the days of the OT. But he was not yet Jesus or the Christ.

God does not change, Jesus Christ has always existed, by Him all things were created, there is nothing new under the sun, have you not read this, or are you arguing for the sake of it!

Why do you say that his title is not accurate until His resurrection, because you do not believe, He said that He would raise His body in three days! He said on the cross 'it is finished', before He was resurrected, FAITH! That is why it is not your faith that counts, and thank Christ for that, it is His Faith, Christ's Faith has been imputed to you, free of charge, your faith does not count, it is was His Faith that counted! "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God (who is the word?) so that the things which are seen were NOT made of things which do appear" Hebrews 11:3

Hebrews 6:20, 7:1-3

"Whither the Forerunner is for us entered even Jesus, made an High Priest forever after the Order of Melchisedec. For this Melchisedek, King of Salem, priest of the Most High God who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings; to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all: first being by interpretation king of righteousness, and after that also king of Salem, WHICH IS TH KING OF PEACE! Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life. But made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

You are beginning to conflict with what the word says, you may want to consider your position.

 

[MahogonySnail]

God does not change, Jesus Christ has always existed, by Him all things were created

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. Jesus Christ existed only after the Word became flesh (John 1:14). Before that He was the Word. Scripture says that Jesus was the son of David and son of Abraham. If Jesus pre-existed then Jesus would not be David's or Abraham's son. Jesus was the promised seed, as promised even far back as Genesis. He did not exist until born, not as Jesus Christ.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Wrong.
How could they follow someone who had not yet been born? and they did not even know who He was or would be? Jesus did not pre-exist.

Yes He did! Jude 1:25 "to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord before all ages, now and forever! Amen."

Colossians 1:17 "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together"

John 8:58 " I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham I was!"

I could just go on and on, with scripture proving the pre-existence of Christ!

It's quite obvious to me you haven't really read the Book of Enoch at all. Enoch certainly doesn't describe the earth as spherical.

Enoch never describes the earth as flat! Why would? You are saying that he did not know what shape the earth was, even though he went to heaven and spoke with God about it personally. I think he would know.

It's like a sunday school kid thinking that a snake gave Eve a rosy red apple, you could think that, if you wanted to, the Bible deoes not actually say that, neither does it say that the earth is "flat", that is you saying that to bear as false witness against God's word, that is all you are doing.

Enoch XLI. 3-5

"And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed, and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, and how they do not leave their orbit, and they add nothing to their orbit, and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they are bound together."

Now according to the Book of Enoch the sun and moon are in "orbit", that agrees with the Bible and it agrees with the geocentric structure of the universe, Enoch never says that the earth is flat, you and other profane humans and devils may want to claim that he does with poor and crude misinterpretations, that does not change what is written, that is why Christians should always follow the sure word of God and not humans!

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. Jesus Christ existed only after the Word became flesh (John 1:14). Before that He was the Word. Scripture says that Jesus was the son of David and son of Abraham. If Jesus pre-existed then Jesus would not be David's or Abraham's son. Jesus was the promised seed, as promised even far back as Genesis. He did not exist until born, not as Jesus Christ.

Yea but you are not a Christian you are a devil 'snail, of course you are going to deny the pre-existence of Jesus...

 

[MahogonySnail]

Enoch never describes the earth as flat! Why would? You are saying that he did not know what shape the earth was, even though he went to heaven and spoke with God about it personally. I think he would know.

In a previous argument you discounted the dream in Daniel being figurative, because it did not describe the earth as you would have it. Perhaps the same applies here.

It's like a sunday school kid thinking that a snake gave Eve a rosy red apple, you could think that, if you wanted to, the Bible deoes not actually say that, neither does it say that the earth is "flat", that is you saying that to bear as false witness against God's word, that is all you are doing.

Neither does it say it is spherical. But logically if you reach the ends of the earth where the heaven (firmanent) meets the earth, you are describing a flat earth, not a round one in which the heaven does not touch the earth at all. Enoch's description matches closely with the flat-earth cosmologies of ancient times.

Enoch XLI. 3-5

"And I saw the chambers of the sun and moon, whence they proceed, and whither they come again, and their glorious return, and how one is superior to the other, and their stately orbit, and how they do not leave their orbit, and they add nothing to their orbit, and they take nothing from it, and they keep faith with each other, in accordance with the oath by which they are bound together."

Now according to the Book of Enoch the sun and moon are in "orbit", that agrees with the Bible and it agrees with the geocentric structure of the universe, Enoch never says that the earth is flat, you and other profane humans and devils may want to claim that he does with poor and crude misinterpretations, that does not change what is written, that is why Christians should always follow the sure word of God and not humans!

Geocentric universe and flat earth are two different issues. But you ignore the verses that describe portals and windows in the heavens, consistent with a flat-earth cosmology. You are human aren't you? In that case we most definitely shouldn't follow quacks such as yourself who can't interpret the bible properly and believe strange doctrines and conspiracy theories about NASA etc.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Yea but you are not a Christian you are a devil 'snail, of course you are going to deny the pre-existence of Jesus...

You shouldn't call a Christian a devil, that's a type of blasphemy.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

In a previous argument you discounted the dream in Daniel being figurative, because it did not describe the earth as you would have it. Perhaps the same applies here.

Dreams are figurative, it's a dream, there is obviously a difference between a dream and reality, do actual real trees grow from the earth up into heaven? Can you imagine if you went round telling people that your dreams were real, be a bit silly wouldn't it. Again you do not understand the art and science of Hermeneutics, do hills skip? do rivers clap? Well no, of course not, i cannot take that literally, but ascribing human attributes to non-human phenomena is a Biblical device and a literary device, with philsophical and metaphysical connotations! Did Jesus die on a wooden cross, or is that just a figurative symbol of something else? No Jesus did die on wooden cross, that is real, that happened, see that is discernment, that is rightly dividing the word, and to rightly divide the word you need the Holy Spirit, you do not have that spirit 'Snail, therefore you cannot understand what the Bible is saying...

Geocentric universe and flat earth are two different issues. But you ignore the verses that describe portals and windows in the heavens, consistent with a flat-earth cosmology.

It says 'Portal' not a window, mean do you think that Enoch is talking about actual glass opening widows up in heaven, like I said you do not know how to read the Bible, only a Christian can read the Bible and understand the real meaning, you must be led by the spirit.

 

[Slepsog4]

I have not contradicted scripture in anyway. The name "Jesus" did not come into play until He became flesh. Prior to His incarnation He did exist from all eternity, but the Bible says He was the Word (ie, Logos) who was with God and was God.

As the Prophet foretold by Moses He was called Christ. But His ultimate expression of being the Anointed One is His role as both High Priest and King. He did not take these roles until after the resurrection. This is why Peter said what he did on Pentecost (Acts 2:36).

NOTE: The Bible NO where teaches that Christ's faith is imputed to us.

 

[Astronut]

OK, so the digital SLR is connected to your Meade telescope is that right? And on these photos you are not using the DSI at all?

That is correct. So do you accept their validity?

 

[EmersonWolfe]

Yea but you are not a Christian you are a devil 'snail, of course you are going to deny the pre-existence of Jesus...

Okay, now you're making me angry... this has been entertaining to read, but I must say this: MahogonySnail has not been arguing against the Bible, he's been arguing against your point of view on what the Bible says. Calling him a devil is highly inappropriate. Can you not see that even though he fully disagrees with you, he obviously loves God and desires to live in the way God wants him to? Do not accuse him. That ticks me off to the max when people say things like that about people who obviously love the Lord.

Another point: Even IF a person is ACTUALLY arguing against the Bible (which MahogonySnail isn't doing), that STILL doesn't make them a devil... just decieved and lost. God loves and wants to save all people... he doesn't want to save demons.

Meh.. done ranting

 

[MahogonySnail]

Dreams are figurative, it's a dream, there is obviously a difference between a dream and reality, do actual real trees grow from the earth up into heaven? Can you imagine if you went round telling people that your dreams were real, be a bit silly wouldn't it. Again you do not understand the art and science of Hermeneutics, do hills skip? do rivers clap? Well no, of course not, i cannot take that literally, but ascribing human attributes to non-human phenomena is a Biblical device and a literary device, with philsophical and metaphysical connotations! Did Jesus die on a wooden cross, or is that just a figurative symbol of something else? No Jesus did die on wooden cross, that is real, that happened, see that is discernment, that is rightly dividing the word, and to rightly divide the word you need the Holy Spirit, you do not have that spirit 'Snail, therefore you cannot understand what the Bible is saying...

Well here's the thing. You take the verses on a fixed earth literally. Yet all commentaries I have read on those verses ascribe a spiritual meaning to it.
It is but an expression that "the earth is fixed and cannot be moved" to mean God's promises are eternal and will always come to pass. Yet in true fashion with the amateur that you are, you take it literally as if it is the best source of scientific knowledge since the wheel was invented. Well if that was true there would be no NASA and no scientific programs today, every scientist and medicine man would be reading the bible.

It says 'Portal' not a window, mean do you think that Enoch is talking about actual glass opening widows up in heaven, like I said you do not know how to read the Bible, only a Christian can read the Bible and understand the real meaning, you must be led by the spirit.

Openings, it may as well be a window, that is the meaning. Enoch identifies a specific number eg 6 portals in which the sun rises, proving that it does indeed mean sorts of windows in the hard sky-dome firmament which open up at various times to allow the sun, moon, stars, etc to shine through, the wind to blow , rain to fall, etc etc. This is consistent with the old testament which describes this firmanent from which the rain falls, the descriptions in Job and elsewhere about a sort of hard firmanent that God "beat out" like beating out a bronze mirror. Regardless of how we interpret 'portals', what should be obvious is that the description of the earth given in Enoch is not exactly the spherical earth you claim it teaches. If enoch didn't even know that wind does not come out of storehouses, and didnt know what creates wind, and that there aren't portals in the sky that open and shut, what makes you think he got anything else right.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

That is correct. So do you accept their validity?

What I am going to tell you now, is something that will call into question everything you have ever believed, you will find it disturbing, it is a very unsettling feeling to be faced with a powerful cosmology that is in total opposition to everything you have ever leant or been told about life and the universe, to be confronted with revelation of truth is something that many men cannot handle, for the revelation of truth is the casting of light onto the darkness and obscurity of lies and illusion; it is not so much the truth that is painful to accept, it is that men find it difficult to let go of their own lies and illusions, to throw down everything you have ever known and accept truth is simply too painful, for an entire life to be revealed as a fraud and a lie in one moment of revealed truth is too much for most minds to bear; they close up and reject and run back to the cosy cover of darkness and lies, they cannot let go of the familiar...


What you are presenting as images of 'galaxies' - clusters of stars in various stages of development, are not that at all, what you think is a 'galaxy', your understanding and concept of what a 'galaxy' is, is false, you are not seeing an image of a cluster of stars millions or billions of light years away, the astronomical image that is seen through your telescope and photographed by your camera, galaxies are illusions, optical illusions that are due to the bending of light, sometimes referred to as a 'gravitational image', it is a visual impression, that is artificially enhanced by several technologically sophisticated techniques. The analogy is the mirage which can be observed due to the relationship of atmospheric temperature and hieight above ground; a rapidily changing refractive index produces inverted images that appear to be floating in the air.

This is what a 'multiple image' is, it is an illusion, an optical illusion produced by a very powerful 'gravitational' force that warps light to create a galatic image that appears in the heavens, its not real, it's an illusion, created by a powerful invisible force. What you are photographing is light deflection, light from a distant star is being redshifted and blueshifted, some of the light is losing energy and some is gaining as it passes through this 'lens' effect, creating a mirage, distortions of light passing through a energy field form a light display, a galatic mirage in space.

 

[Astronut]

What you are presenting as images of 'galaxies' - clusters of stars in various stages of development, are not that at all, what you think is a 'galaxy', your understanding and concept of what a 'galaxy' is, is false, you are not seeing an image of a cluster of stars millions or billions of light years away, the astronomical image that is seen through your telescope and photographed by your camera, galaxies are illusions, optical illusions that are due to the bending of light, sometimes referred to as a 'gravitational image', it is a visual impression, that is artificially enhanced by several technologically sophisticated techniques. The analogy is the mirage which can be observed due to the relationship of atmospheric temperature and hieight above ground; a rapidily changing refractive index produces inverted images that appear to be floating in the air.

This is what a 'multiple image' is, it is an illusion, an optical illusion produced by a very powerful 'gravitational' force that warps light to create a galatic image that appears in the heavens, its not real, it's an illusion, created by a powerful invisible force. What you are photographing is light deflection, light from a distant star is being redshifted and blueshifted, some of the light is losing energy and some is gaining as it passes through this 'lens' effect, creating a mirage, distortions of light passing through a energy field form a light display, a galatic mirage in space.

So first it was my computer or camera that was faking the images, now the excuse is a mirage. If you really believed any of this you wouldn't be changing your explanation with each post. Also, if it were a mirage, the stars in clusters shouldn't all be perfect little round dots, and galaxies wouldn't assume consistent structures and dust bands. Come back when you have a consistent explanation, and more importantly, a shred of evidence.

 

[Slepsog4]

Cup,

Are you saying that everything we see in the sky is merely an illusion? Are you suggesting that there are no other galaxies at all in the entire universe?

Would you add to this that the constellations are illusions as well?

What is the point of your assertions? Oh, and where is your evidence?