Error in the Church System: The Root of the Problem

[Skinski7]

Being "born with a sin nature" is myth. We are born subject to the natural passions and desires of the flesh. Sin is when we reject God and "go our own way" in order to fulfill the passions and desires unlawfully. Jam1:14-15 clearly speaks of how it is the "lusts of the flesh" that draw people into sin, NOT A SIN NATURE. In Genesis 3:6 we see Eve being drawn into disobedience by the lusts of her flesh.

Repentance is when one changes their mind about submitting to the flesh in disregard to the righteousness of God. Thus a true repentance necessitates a true conversion where the action changes.

An individual who has repented has literally forsaken the life of yielding to the lusts of their flesh in disobedience to God and now lives in accordance with the leading of God. Hence a Christian walks after the Spirit and not the flesh.

When the "willful submission to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God (ie. going our own way)" is ignored as the basis for sin and is replaced with an inherited "sin nature" the Gospel message must be preached in a way that caters to the "inborn sin nature" and thus treats sin as a "disease" instead of the crime which it actually is.

Due to the teaching of being "born a sinner" the Gospel must by necessity be twisted into a CLOAK for the "natural state of man" which is "born a sinner." Thus the aspect of the cross where WE DIE WITH CHRIST whereby OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED and the BODY OF SIN DESTROYED is completely eliminated from the Gospel message. It has to be eliminated because an "inborn sin nature" CANNOT be crucified or "laid aside."

One CANNOT repent of a "birth nature" because repentance is a change of mind leading to a change of action within the context of OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART (Rom 6:17). If men are "by nature sinners" then the change of mind and actions can only be made on a superficial level. Yet Jesus taught that the good seed falls on a "an honest and good heart" (Luk 8:15) which clearly harmonises with "yielding from the heart" which totally contradicts the existence of an "inborn sin nature" as being part of the "natural constitution of man."

An "inborn sin nature" depicts the fundamental constitution of man "as evil" and thus there is no possible way for the seed to fall upon an "honest and good heart" because there would be no such thing, that alone should raise eyebrows in regards to the teaching of Total Depravity. Yet if sin is a CHOICE and the SIN NATURE of Eph 2:3 is the result of "habitual sinning" becoming "hardwired" into the flesh (formation of neuron pathways/pleasure receptors etc.) then being in "bondage to lust" makes perfect sense. Human beings are not in bondage to a "sin nature" but rather are in bondage to their "natural lusts" and this bondage could be termed as the present "natural state" depicted in Eph 2:3. This natural state is not something one is born into, rather one sells themselves into it via the choices they make.

Rom 2:14 speaks of those who "by nature" do the things contained in the law and are thus a "law unto themselves" showing the "law written on their hearts." Rom 2:14 has a "nature" doing good while Eph 2:3 has a nature doing evil. Under the teaching of an "inborn sin nature" whereby the internal constitution of man "is naturally predisposed to evil" such a contrast does not make sense.

The simple truth is that man is not "born" with a sin nature. Man is born in a neutral state but is subject to the natural passions and desires of the flesh. A young child is neither righteous nor unrighteous. As the reasoning faculties develop children have the CHOICE as to whether yield to the light of God and do what is right or to reject the light of God and do what is evil. Yielding to one or the other will develop a growing natural predisposition towards certain behaviour. Thus when men choose to sin it begets more sin and becomes engrained in the character as well as physically as the brain develops (as studies on habits/addiction demonstrate). This is how sin brings bondage. It is also why Peter would write that to be a partaker in the "divine nature" one must FIRST have escaped the "corruption in the world through lust." Parallelisms to this line of thought in the Scripture would be things like how once cannot serve two masters and one cannot walk in both the flesh and the spirit at the same time.

Notice this scripture...

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The doctrine of being "born a sinner" necessitates ongoing bondage as long as one exists in a fleshly body. Hence scriptures like 1Joh 1:8 and the Romans 7 wretch are pulled out of context to support an ongoing life of yielding to the flesh in disobedience to God because any alternative is deemed impossible due to sin being viewed as a malady of the flesh as opposed to a "yielding to lust." Inborn sin negates choice thus negating free-will.

As I mentioned earlier this redefines the Gospel into being a cloak for this ongoing sinful state. Thus being "in Christ" is merely a position of IDENTITY as opposed to being a STATE IN PRACTICE. Therefore when a professing Christian is seen to be living in accordance to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God they have an IDENTITY PROBLEM and not a SALVATION PROBLEM. Positionally they are viewed as saved but practically they are viewed to be still in bondage. Thus salvation has NOTHING to do with actually being set free from the bondage of sin according to this kind of theological system.

One of the most powerful scriptures which refutes this false theology is 1Joh chapter 3 where it is written...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

They key word above is MANIFEST in verse 10. The manifest conduct of the children of God being righteousness completely refutes any conjecture that a child of God can be walking in the lusts of the flesh and sinning. It is the children of the devil who walk in the lusts of the flesh working unrighteous conduct. Jesus put it like this...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Manifest conduct matters for you can know a tree by its fruit.

 

[Enow]

An individual who has repented has literally forsaken the life of yielding to the lusts of their flesh in disobedience to God and now lives in accordance with the leading of God. Hence a Christian walks after the Spirit and not the flesh.

They can only do this by faith in the Son of God, but there is one aspect you are overlooking. There will always be temptations just as sin will come about only if we are not on guard against those things that can serve as weights or provisions for the flesh which can be anything around us which is why it is a race of continually looking to the author and finisher of our faith to lay aside every weight & sin to follow Him and thus continuing in His words to be His disciples by faith in the Son of God.

When the "willful submission to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God (ie. going our own way)" is ignored as the basis for sin and is replaced with an inherited "sin nature" the Gospel message must be preached in a way that caters to the "inborn sin nature" and thus treats sin as a "disease" instead of the crime which it actually is.

How would you apply what Paul was saying about his sinful nature under the law of what the law could not do by him doing the best he can to not sin?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Seems to me that Paul was referring to his sinful state like a disease rather than a purposeful willful crime, and it was Jesus Christ that set him free from the bondage to sin and to death.

Due to the teaching of being "born a sinner" the Gospel must by necessity be twisted into a CLOAK for the "natural state of man" which is "born a sinner." Thus the aspect of the cross where WE DIE WITH CHRIST whereby OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED and the BODY OF SIN DESTROYED is completely eliminated from the Gospel message. It has to be eliminated because an "inborn sin nature" CANNOT be crucified or "laid aside."

To be His disciple in running that race, there is still a continuous laying aside of sins but we do so by looking to the author & finisher of our faith.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If anyone believes they can never sin again, and so when they do sin, they do not call it sin or confess that they had sin, that would be the same thing as living a lie.

This is why Jesus Christ is our Good Shepherd and not just our Saviour. Because wwe will sin while in this corruptible flesh, we need Him to help us to follow Him to lay aisde every weight and sin to be His disciple.

1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Brother, if you are needing the law to be heavy because you sin, then you need to let go and trust Jesus Christ to deliver you from your bondage to sin so that sin will no longer have dominion over you. Trust Him to do what you cannot do which is never sin again. This si how you get to know Him and the power of His resurrection when you see Him working in your life after seeing sin no longer dominating you.

So stop berating yourself for sinning here or there, and just trust Him to forgive you and that He will help you not to do it again by His grace.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

This is why His yoke is easy and His burden is light because we are entrusting Him to do what we could not do by doing the best we can not to sin by the deeds of the law.

Please believe Him. Please trust Him. He will set you free from sin to follow Him but by grace through faith in Him. We will be thanking Him more than just for having saved us, but for helping us to live as His by faith in the Son of God in us. Amen.

 

[crossnote]

notice the word 'AND', so we see both...

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; AND were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I hope you don't say Adam and Eve were by nature 'children of wrath' before they fell.

 

[Skinski7]

Enow,

I am overlooking the fact that there will always be temptations? What gives you that idea.

Paul wrote that temptation is common to man but God will not suffer us to be tempted above what we can handle and that there is always the way of escape. The questions is do we take that way of escape or not? Those who have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires and patiently continue in doing good take the way of escape every single time.

Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. God judges us by the choices we make. Temptation is there to test our faith, do we really love God or not.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Don't be deceived into believing you can yield to temptation and sin and still enter the kingdom. That sort of conduct must cease. The disobedient receive wrath.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


In Romans 7 Paul is referring to being in bondage to the lusts of the flesh. Do you really believe that being "Carnal and Sold Under Sin" is the state of a Christian who has been "redeemed from all iniquity"? Do you really believe that?

Jesus did say that if the eye is single the whole body shall be full of light. Is someone who is "carnal and sold under sin" singly eyed on the Lord? Of course not.

The wretch in Romans 7 cries out for deliverance in verse 24. Being delivered from this state lies in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) whereby one fulfills the righteousness requirements of the law by walking after the Spirit (Rom 8:4) by a faith that has established the law in their heart (Rom 3:31).

Yet you believe those who are in Christ are "carnal and sold under sin?" You had better reconsider that position because you are holding to "salvation in sin." God does not "set someone free" only to "leave them in bondage." That is ridiculous.

The death of Jesus Christ is not some provision which you just trust in while you remain enslaved to corruption. Come on, think man.

Peter clearly teaches that we are to add to our faith (to partake in the divine nature) AFTER we have escaped the corruption in the world through lust. Where is that in your Gospel? It isn't because it contradicts the philosophy that "sin is a substance of the flesh that you are born with."

Your Gospel completely ELIMINATES the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires. Your Gospel completely ELIMINATES being set free from lust. Your Gospel teaches that men will serve lust till death because the flesh, in and of itself, is evil.

Thus you cannot teach this...

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I am not sure how you would explain the above comment made by Jesus because you CANNOT pluck out a sinful nature you were born with. Here is Jesus teaching that one must cast off wicked conduct yet your doctrine would teach it cannot be done.

You say...

Because we will sin while in this corruptible flesh, we need Him to help us to follow Him to lay aisde every weight and sin to be His disciple.

And you cling to this verse as proof...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin to you is a disease and not a crime and this repentance is confession of the disease. Thus the Gospel is a CLOAK for the ongoing diseased condition. Satan has fooled you big time.

Yet John wrote this...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood cleanses on the condition that you walk in the light as He is in the light and that means with NO DARKNESS AT ALL (verse 5).

WALKING is what you do. Your deeds are your walk.

You claim that you'll always be sinning thus the "walking in the light, as he is in the light" must have some mystical abstract application in your mind. It simply must have because you believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to literally walk in the light, as He is in the light.

1Joh 1:8-10 are REPENTANCE VERSES. One cannot approach God without first confessing that they have sin to their account. John is writing so that his readers will have fellowship with each other AND WITH THE FATHER. He explains HOW to get this fellowship.

John IS NOT teaching "the sin never stops." In fact in 1Joh2:1 he says IF. He does not say WHEN.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He then proceeds to say this...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If someone is sinning then they ARE NOT walking as He walked are they? They are not KEEPING His commandments are they?

WE KNOW that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. That is what John PLAINLY states. It is not complicated, it means what it says.

When we keep His commandments we are PROVING that we love God. We are proving that we are not putting SELF on the throne.

Look at this...

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Joy might be full? Keeping Commandments? It is a PARALLEL to 1st John.

If we TRULY love God we will keep His commandments. We'll abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ. We'll be DOERS of the word.

Does any of this nullify our dependency on God? No. Does it nullify our need for God as many imply? No. Those are fallacies which are used to divert attention away from what the scriptures PLAINLY state.

Who is talking about the "deeds of the law" here? That is another fallacy. If we are led by the Spirit we ARE NOT under the law because the works of righteousness (which the law illustrates) will be naturally manifested through faith. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW.



The doctrine of an inherited sin nature a pure gnostic heresy which was introduced into Christian orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo. The early church DID NOT teach it. Neither should you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

 

[Trax]

Being "born with a sin nature" is myth.

No one ever teaches a child to lie. They come up with it on their own, because they are sinners, born
sinners. This neutral concept says Jesus died on the cross for no reason, since there would be those who died outside the sin state and could get to the Father without Jesus. And you CAN repent from a birth nature. Its called being "born again." Jesus chose His words correctly.

 

[Blain]

Enow,

I am overlooking the fact that there will always be temptations? What gives you that idea.

Paul wrote that temptation is common to man but God will not suffer us to be tempted above what we can handle and that there is always the way of escape. The questions is do we take that way of escape or not?

Those who have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires and patiently continue in doing good take the way of escape every single time.

Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. God judges us by the choices we make. Temptation is there to test our faith, do we really love God or not.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Don't be deceived into believing you can yield to temptation and sin and still enter the kingdom. That sort of conduct must cease. The disobedient receive wrath.

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


In Romans 7 Paul is referring to being in bondage to the lusts of the flesh. Do you really believe that being "Carnal and Sold Under Sin" is the state of a Christian who has been "redeemed from all iniquity"? Do you really believe that?

Jesus did say that if the eye is single the whole body shall be full of light. Is someone who is "carnal and sold under sin" singly eyed on the Lord? Of course not.

The wretch in Romans 7 cries out for deliverance in verse 24. Being delivered from this state lies in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) whereby one fulfills the righteousness requirements of the law by walking after the Spirit (Rom 8:4) by a faith that has established the law in their heart (Rom 3:31).

Yet you believe those who are in Christ are "carnal and sold under sin?" You had better reconsider that position because you are holding to "salvation in sin." God does not "set someone free" only to "leave them in bondage." That is ridiculous.

The death of Jesus Christ is not some provision which you just trust in while you remain enslaved to corruption. Come on, think man.

Peter clearly teaches that we are to add to our faith (to partake in the divine nature) AFTER we have escaped the corruption in the world through lust. Where is that in your Gospel? It isn't because it contradicts the philosophy that "sin is a substance of the flesh that you are born with."

Your Gospel completely ELIMINATES the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires. Your Gospel completely ELIMINATES being set free from lust. Your Gospel teaches that men will serve lust till death because the flesh, in and of itself, is evil.

Thus you cannot teach this...

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

I am not sure how you would explain the above comment made by Jesus because you CANNOT pluck out a sinful nature you were born with. Here is Jesus teaching that one must cast off wicked conduct yet your doctrine would teach it cannot be done.

You say...



And you cling to this verse as proof...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin to you is a disease and not a crime and this repentance is confession of the disease. Thus the Gospel is a CLOAK for the ongoing diseased condition. Satan has fooled you big time.

Yet John wrote this...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood cleanses on the condition that you walk in the light as He is in the light and that means with NO DARKNESS AT ALL (verse 5).

WALKING is what you do. Your deeds are your walk.

You claim that you'll always be sinning thus the "walking in the light, as he is in the light" must have some mystical abstract application in your mind. It simply must have because you believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to literally walk in the light, as He is in the light.

1Joh 1:8-10 are REPENTANCE VERSES. One cannot approach God without first confessing that they have sin to their account. John is writing so that his readers will have fellowship with each other AND WITH THE FATHER. He explains HOW to get this fellowship.

John IS NOT teaching "the sin never stops." In fact in 1Joh2:1 he says IF. He does not say WHEN.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He then proceeds to say this...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If someone is sinning then they ARE NOT walking as He walked are they? They are not KEEPING His commandments are they?

WE KNOW that we know Him IF we keep His commandments. That is what John PLAINLY states. It is not complicated, it means what it says.

When we keep His commandments we are PROVING that we love God. We are proving that we are not putting SELF on the throne.

Look at this...

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Joy might be full? Keeping Commandments? It is a PARALLEL to 1st John.

If we TRULY love God we will keep His commandments. We'll abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ. We'll be DOERS of the word.

Does any of this nullify our dependency on God? No. Does it nullify our need for God as many imply? No. Those are fallacies which are used to divert attention away from what the scriptures PLAINLY state.

Who is talking about the "deeds of the law" here? That is another fallacy. If we are led by the Spirit we ARE NOT under the law because the works of righteousness (which the law illustrates) will be naturally manifested through faith. LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW.



The doctrine of an inherited sin nature a pure gnostic heresy which was introduced into Christian orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo. The early church DID NOT teach it. Neither should you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

I don't know who taught you these things But you are wasting your time with this, those of us who truly know god know better than to believe these things you say. Instead of focusing on sin why don't you focus on obtaining a much deeper relationship with god and help others to obtain it as well? I don't know if you are teaching these things because you are trying to help people or because you are pushing you beliefs on people but either way i think it's a wste of your time because you are not helping anyone and you cannot push your beliefs on people and expect them to believe you. I fear you are going to ruin a new believers faith with what you teach

 

[damombomb]

I agree with Blain on this. If I was a new believer i would think, there is no way i can ever be saved or forgiven, and how could i ever measure up to all these rules. But if some one showed
me the fruit of the spirit, id be more apt to think differently

 

[Skinski7]

No one ever teaches a child to lie. They come up with it on their own, because they are sinners, born
sinners. This neutral concept says Jesus died on the cross for no reason, since there would be those who died outside the sin state and could get to the Father without Jesus. And you CAN repent from a birth nature. Its called being "born again." Jesus chose His words correctly.

No-one ever teaches a glutton to overeat either. A glutton has simply submitted himself to hunger without restraint.

Lying and gluttony are simply the result of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. No need of being "born" with a sin nature nor is there any need to be taught it.

 

[Skinski7]

I agree with Blain on this. If I was a new believer i would think, there is no way i can ever be saved or forgiven, and how could i ever measure up to all these rules. But if some one showed
me the fruit of the spirit, id be more apt to think differently

Jesus and the apostles all preached repentance and faith. If you somehow translate it into "measuring up to rules" then that is a figment of your mind.

Rom 6:17 speaks of obeying from the heart. A broken and contrite soul simply yields to God and lets God work through them. We walk in faith by love. It is not a burden.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[zone]

No-one ever teaches a glutton to overeat either. A glutton has simply submitted himself to hunger without restraint.

Lying and gluttony are simply the result of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. No need of being "born" with a sin nature nor is there any need to be taught it.

no need of being BORN AGAIN if you're not DEAD already.

eh....heretics

Matthew 8:22
And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

 

[dashadow]

Don't overthink matters. If you really want to understand His Word, just submit to His Will and let His Holy Spirit guide you.

 

[Skinski7]

no need of being BORN AGAIN if you're not DEAD already.

eh....heretics

Matthew 8:22
And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

Actually to be born again one must die first.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Jesus also taught that being born "AGAIN" is in the context of the first birth being of the flesh or the natural man, not in the context of being born dead to God as you believe. There is not a single scripture which states that you are "born dead to God."

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Abiding]

Skinski why would it be given to us that there will continue to be a war inside
from the flesh....

the list of the fleshs desires are naming depraved actions only(our nature)
why on earth do we need told while we walk in the spirit we will till our
final state have this war that WILL NOT stop?

What moves or motivates the war and why is it all listed, not naming one virtue?
And why the need for grace? Or the power of the HolySpirit?

 

[zone]

Jesus also taught that being born "AGAIN" is in the context of the first birth being of the flesh or the natural man, not in the context of being born dead to God as you believe. There is not a single scripture which states that you are "born dead to God."

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

how many births are there Skinski?

one?
or two?

this is a multiple choice question. you have a 50-50 chance of getting it wrong.

now, how many deaths are mentioned?

one
two
or
three?

and please address why Jesus gives two births. one of flesh and one of spirit to a man who has already been born once.
he didn't know the answer either, Skinski.
like i said....you like judaism.
you figure it out.

 

[crossnote]

Skinski,

were you born with the same nature that unfallen Adam had?