Is fellowship possible between Calvinists and Arminians?
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R
Free will is libertarian and a gift given by God because he honors the relationship between him and those who freely accept this gift of salvation, as they are enabled by prevenient grace. It is all God..its not a thing we do on our own. Once again, stick with what is said..I never said we do anything of our own.
The arminian believes God is sovereign, of course if you make the definition of sovereignty to be obligatorily lumped together with Divine determinism..then according to that limitation of the definition then yes. But can God be sovereign without making everything that happens in this world be his fault and doing? I say yes he can. No..i never said i am against the bible. Do not place words in my mouth that i never said. And if you ever read some books on what calvinism actually teaches or do a little research on the soteriology you identify with..you will see that double predistination is what Calvin taught after building upon what Augustine taught, which was single predestination. Which in an essence means that some were forordained and predetermined unto salvation, and others according to Calvin, were passed over..for God's good pleasure supposedly..and yet this damning those who were withheld and not given this enabling grace to do anything more than what they had been doing somehow makes it right and just to then punish these same ones who would have been better off not being alive since they were predetermined to a hell and never given the grace to have any other option. Tell me grandpa, how is this biblical? In the light of romans 9 halfway through the chapter and not starting at verse one i guess you could come up with this conclusion. But i doubt you do a full study of the bible, seeing as you accuse me of not believing the bibe because i reject Determinism and compatibilism..what of the early church? I guess they not having Augustine and Calvin to teach them the 'gospel' they too did not believe the bible according to this opinion of yours.
The arminian believes God is sovereign, of course if you make the definition of sovereignty to be obligatorily lumped together with Divine determinism..then according to that limitation of the definition then yes. But can God be sovereign without making everything that happens in this world be his fault and doing? I say yes he can. No..i never said i am against the bible. Do not place words in my mouth that i never said. And if you ever read some books on what calvinism actually teaches or do a little research on the soteriology you identify with..you will see that double predistination is what Calvin taught after building upon what Augustine taught, which was single predestination. Which in an essence means that some were forordained and predetermined unto salvation, and others according to Calvin, were passed over..for God's good pleasure supposedly..and yet this damning those who were withheld and not given this enabling grace to do anything more than what they had been doing somehow makes it right and just to then punish these same ones who would have been better off not being alive since they were predetermined to a hell and never given the grace to have any other option. Tell me grandpa, how is this biblical? In the light of romans 9 halfway through the chapter and not starting at verse one i guess you could come up with this conclusion. But i doubt you do a full study of the bible, seeing as you accuse me of not believing the bibe because i reject Determinism and compatibilism..what of the early church? I guess they not having Augustine and Calvin to teach them the 'gospel' they too did not believe the bible according to this opinion of yours.
R
That is true. How many true Calvinist are on here? I know of a few. but not many.. And this chat room is far from Calvinistic. Just most of us believe in the eternal security of the soul based on the grace of God.
Was it not said not long ago in this very thread that most calvanists believe anyone who does not believe in osas is arminian? I guess what we see here is most arminians believe anyone who believes in eternal security is calvanist.
Was it not said not long ago in this very thread that most calvanists believe anyone who does not believe in osas is arminian? I guess what we see here is most arminians believe anyone who believes in eternal security is calvanist.
R
It means to constantly work on being sensitive to God's leaning and his spirit and to grow in sanctity and to be a better christian each day..It certainly does not mean throwing up the grace card the night after you got sloshed at the bar on new years..or whatever other thing you chose to justify. Yes..one can be struggling/tempted..but there is a means of escape from temptation. Sounds like you simply want to trick me into saying your licentious advocacy is better than living in holiness which God clearly says in his word it is his will for us. So, who do i listen to..you or God?
R
how ironic
Just wondering..
R
I wouldn't worry about anything that Red says. If Red is right and I'm wrong then everything is perfectly fine. After all, if "once saved always saved" is good for the goose then it is good for the gander.
However, if I'm right and Red is wrong, then he and his buddies are going to have a very hard time trying to explain to Jesus just how and why they thought His divine words and actions justified sin and very poor treatment of others.
By their fruit you shall know them. May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls...
However, if I'm right and Red is wrong, then he and his buddies are going to have a very hard time trying to explain to Jesus just how and why they thought His divine words and actions justified sin and very poor treatment of others.
By their fruit you shall know them. May the Lord have mercy on their poor souls...
All we can do is pray..Those who make a mockery of Holiness living are simply hating the standard God gives us, not that one is 100 percent perfect and does not have a spotty instance here and there..but since these others are too focused and too into meditating on their sin than on fixing their minds on whatsoever is pure,lovely..of good report..they fix their minds on sin. So obviously the grace card is thrown up in their defence of cheap grace,which is not real grace.
R
Not true..the hero of Calvinism is Calvin, who's hero was Augustine. The father of arminianism is Arminius,who at one time a calvinist himself, further studying the word, realized the inconsistencies of determinism and calvinism and while he never blatantly renounced calvinism, could not be considered a calvinist according to five point calvinism.
Yes, both could possibly fellowship if both parties choose to focus on common ground. It can be an issue when one has a friend who shapes all their views of life according to determinism..because then every response to that friend has to become a rebuttal against calvinism and determinism and you must be ready to respond to why you could never be a calvinist..which is what i have had to do with a friend, whom I love like a bro, but is a relentless 5 point high calvinist, he loves the Lord..i know, but his theology shapes every minute detail of his life..how he views the lost(sadly its not with compassion or concern many times),and how he views even those in the church. On the positive note, being his friend helped me discover the alternative, classical arminianism..so all is not lost! I thank God for my calvinist friend, who knows..id still probably be a charismatic if it were not for him! (shudders)
Yes, both could possibly fellowship if both parties choose to focus on common ground. It can be an issue when one has a friend who shapes all their views of life according to determinism..because then every response to that friend has to become a rebuttal against calvinism and determinism and you must be ready to respond to why you could never be a calvinist..which is what i have had to do with a friend, whom I love like a bro, but is a relentless 5 point high calvinist, he loves the Lord..i know, but his theology shapes every minute detail of his life..how he views the lost(sadly its not with compassion or concern many times),and how he views even those in the church. On the positive note, being his friend helped me discover the alternative, classical arminianism..so all is not lost! I thank God for my calvinist friend, who knows..id still probably be a charismatic if it were not for him! (shudders)
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R
Yes..it seems the high calvinist has almost reverted to hyper calvinist..having a disdain and hatred for the world,and a snubnosed looking down attitude upon those who do not accept and receive their message. Sadly its people like this who turn people off from the message of the true gospel,which we see in john3:16,and emphasis is on verse 17! these 'good calvinists' are simply being genuine, unlike the new calvinists who must be not sincere about their true beliefs..who when they become extreme look far too similar to their hyper calvinist contemporaries, the westboro baptists..and as whack as the westboros are, they're merely being sincere, constistently faithfull to the high calvinist and hyper calvinist message. Why is anyone shocked anymore by what they say?
C
That's why I don't mind placing people on ignore. If someone has a genuine question about something I've said, I don't mind answering them at all. However, there's no need to defend your perspective when those who are questioning your perspective are closed minded and just want to argue.
If I want drama, I'll watch daytime television.
If I want drama, I'll watch daytime television.
uh....i'd get over the hookah bar thing once and for all, and not tar everybody according to that experience?
hookah dude prolly doesn't even know what calvinism is...maybe by this time next year he'll be a JW
~
the 'ironic' remark was because you had a dual objection going on...one was concerning charismaticism. i just found it ironic that you were having a nice discussion about wretched calvinists with a charismatic and you prolly didn't even know it
its interesting how we can get along if:
1) we don't peer into every element of someone else's life/theology snapshot by snapshot and assume it means everything there will ever be to them/their theology.
or
2) we can change our spots depending on to whom we are speaking.
anyways, peace to you in Christ's Name, rauleetoe
zone.
hookah dude prolly doesn't even know what calvinism is...maybe by this time next year he'll be a JW
~
the 'ironic' remark was because you had a dual objection going on...one was concerning charismaticism. i just found it ironic that you were having a nice discussion about wretched calvinists with a charismatic and you prolly didn't even know it
its interesting how we can get along if:
1) we don't peer into every element of someone else's life/theology snapshot by snapshot and assume it means everything there will ever be to them/their theology.
or
2) we can change our spots depending on to whom we are speaking.
anyways, peace to you in Christ's Name, rauleetoe
zone.
rauleetoe,
maybe ppl are focusing on sin (and trying to defend, or at least give Grace an honorable mention) because ppl are accusing them day and night of licentiousness, antinomianism, lawlessness, sin, sin and more sin...
ppl they've never met
that's the part i don't get. maybe we need new hobbies now and then.
love zone
maybe ppl are focusing on sin (and trying to defend, or at least give Grace an honorable mention) because ppl are accusing them day and night of licentiousness, antinomianism, lawlessness, sin, sin and more sin...
ppl they've never met
that's the part i don't get. maybe we need new hobbies now and then.
love zone
???
what is all God?
what is not a thing we do on our own?
you mean you can't do anything until God grants you the gift of libertarianism?
where's that in scripture...like as 'a gift'? in Ephesians?
maybe i don't get it yet.
Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology.[1] It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.
Prevenient grace is embraced primarily by Arminian Christians who are influenced by the theology of Jacob Arminius or John Wesley. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation. Wesley typically referred to it in 18th-century language as prevenient grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning.
wiki
uh-oh...Uncle Auggie again!
why is he involved in everything?
mind you, Wesley had some krazy ideas.
how much of Wesley do you accept, rauleetoe?
what is all God?
what is not a thing we do on our own?
you mean you can't do anything until God grants you the gift of libertarianism?
where's that in scripture...like as 'a gift'? in Ephesians?
maybe i don't get it yet.
Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology.[1] It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.
Prevenient grace is embraced primarily by Arminian Christians who are influenced by the theology of Jacob Arminius or John Wesley. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation. Wesley typically referred to it in 18th-century language as prevenient grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning.
wiki
uh-oh...Uncle Auggie again!
why is he involved in everything?
mind you, Wesley had some krazy ideas.
how much of Wesley do you accept, rauleetoe?
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R
uh....i'd get over the hookah bar thing once and for all, and not tar everybody according to that experience?
hookah dude prolly doesn't even know what calvinism is...maybe by this time next year he'll be a JW
~
the 'ironic' remark was because you had a dual objection going on...one was concerning charismaticism. i just found it ironic that you were having a nice discussion about wretched calvinists with a charismatic and you prolly didn't even know it
its interesting how we can get along if:
1) we don't peer into every element of someone else's life/theology snapshot by snapshot and assume it means everything there will ever be to them/their theology.
or
2) we can change our spots depending on to whom we are speaking.
anyways, peace to you in Christ's Name, rauleetoe
zone.
hookah dude prolly doesn't even know what calvinism is...maybe by this time next year he'll be a JW
~
the 'ironic' remark was because you had a dual objection going on...one was concerning charismaticism. i just found it ironic that you were having a nice discussion about wretched calvinists with a charismatic and you prolly didn't even know it
its interesting how we can get along if:
1) we don't peer into every element of someone else's life/theology snapshot by snapshot and assume it means everything there will ever be to them/their theology.
or
2) we can change our spots depending on to whom we are speaking.
anyways, peace to you in Christ's Name, rauleetoe
zone.
By the way,I do not hate charismatics actually, or even calvinists..i hate what calvinism does, it misrepresents God. And as far as charismatics, i like a good charismatic, i may not pray in tongues with them..or flow in the 'prophetic', etc(I came out of this charismatic/pentecostal background) But my issue is things more often than not are not done in order regarding the gifts for one, and two, the issues i have with them are more about beliefs than persons(charismatics) I feel they over emphasize the gifts of the spirit and only emphasize that, and are a bit way too grace oriented, as are some baptists,many calvinists,etc.. I can even break bread with a catholic,whom most of them believe that Christ died for all men and seem to believe more of the bible than some protestants(case in point,calvinists) do. I have no vitriol or hate towards any christian, my utmost disgust is with the reform theology persuation, and not the person who believes it. There are even some good people who may have been raised this way or for whatever reason, adhere to reform theology. I do not get why the calvinist is so anti catholic when the one who started the theological emphasis that was built upon to get calvinism was from a catholic himself, the greatest catholic of them all, Augustine. So how can you hate that which you should clearly be thankfull to and for,without catholicism there would be no reformed theology. Which should be actually called, revised theology, more than reformed theology. As it is a revision of what Augustine taught.
R
???
what is all God?
what is not a thing we do on our own?
you mean you can't do anything until God grants you the gift of libertarianism?
where's that in scripture...like as 'a gift'? in Ephesians?
maybe i don't get it yet.
Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology.[1] It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.
Prevenient grace is embraced primarily by Arminian Christians who are influenced by the theology of Jacob Arminius or John Wesley. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation. Wesley typically referred to it in 18th-century language as prevenient grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning.
wiki
uh-oh...Uncle Auggie again!
why is he involved in everything?
mind you, Wesley had some krazy ideas.
how much of Wesley do you accept, rauleetoe?
what is all God?
what is not a thing we do on our own?
you mean you can't do anything until God grants you the gift of libertarianism?
where's that in scripture...like as 'a gift'? in Ephesians?
maybe i don't get it yet.
Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology.[1] It is divine grace that precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.
Prevenient grace is embraced primarily by Arminian Christians who are influenced by the theology of Jacob Arminius or John Wesley. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation. Wesley typically referred to it in 18th-century language as prevenient grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning.
wiki
uh-oh...Uncle Auggie again!
why is he involved in everything?
mind you, Wesley had some krazy ideas.
how much of Wesley do you accept, rauleetoe?
Salvation, the gift of God, is through Jesus..its in romans 6:23. Libertarian grace is biblical, and it is a grace given by God, to man because he wants relationship with man to be genuine. If you are forced into a relationship with someone, is it a genuine relationship? Or is it an abusive and unloving thing, almost a slavery if you may call it that.
thanks for your reply rauleetoe.
i wouldn't be pressured into a bar or anywhere else by anybody (calvinist or hippie humanist, etc)...no matter what they wanted to convince me of. if i felt like going in, i would.
so, classical arminianism is the true faith delivered once for all then?
or you just really hate sin?
not sure of your take on the Augster. he was kinda on track with Arminius.
thing is always, which came first, the chikin or the egg kinda thing.
anyways, i'm a Confessional Lutheran (we confess that we are sinners, but have a very high view of the Law)
so...would it be accurate to say my choice of church tradition and theology would fall within the purview of your utmost disgust?
dunno
^ cool movie ^
i wouldn't be pressured into a bar or anywhere else by anybody (calvinist or hippie humanist, etc)...no matter what they wanted to convince me of. if i felt like going in, i would.
so, classical arminianism is the true faith delivered once for all then?
or you just really hate sin?
not sure of your take on the Augster. he was kinda on track with Arminius.
thing is always, which came first, the chikin or the egg kinda thing.
anyways, i'm a Confessional Lutheran (we confess that we are sinners, but have a very high view of the Law)
so...would it be accurate to say my choice of church tradition and theology would fall within the purview of your utmost disgust?
dunno
^ cool movie ^
R
thanks for your reply rauleetoe.
i wouldn't be pressured into a bar or anywhere else by anybody (calvinist or hippie humanist, etc)...no matter what they wanted to convince me of. if i felt like going in, i would.
so, classical arminianism is the true faith delivered once for all then?
or you just really hate sin?
not sure of your take on the Augster. he was kinda on track with Arminius.
thing is always, which came first, the chikin or the egg kinda thing.
anyways, i'm a Confessional Lutheran (we confess that we are sinners, but have a very high view of the Law)
so...would it be accurate to say my choice of church tradition and theology would fall within the purview of your utmost disgust?
dunno
^ cool movie ^
i wouldn't be pressured into a bar or anywhere else by anybody (calvinist or hippie humanist, etc)...no matter what they wanted to convince me of. if i felt like going in, i would.
so, classical arminianism is the true faith delivered once for all then?
or you just really hate sin?
not sure of your take on the Augster. he was kinda on track with Arminius.
thing is always, which came first, the chikin or the egg kinda thing.
anyways, i'm a Confessional Lutheran (we confess that we are sinners, but have a very high view of the Law)
so...would it be accurate to say my choice of church tradition and theology would fall within the purview of your utmost disgust?
dunno
^ cool movie ^
R
Dear Zone,
nope..I have not read any of Augustine yet, But from what i hear he didnt finish well..as was the case with Calvin, and sadly even Luther got caught up in the spread of the gospel by force, and at least the case with Calvin, and i heard possibly with Luther(must look into it, and even with Augustine) that they were murderers. I know for a fact Calvin was of at least one person(Serventus) And there was no proof of Calvin ever mentioning his born again,new birth experience..what it seen however is his pointing to his catholic baby baptism(it seems as if Calvin held onto much of the catholicism he allegedly hated, sounds confusing to me)
But yes, i saw that luther movie..it was good. And God used a highly flawed man like Luther during the reformation. Sadly many protestants are all too proud to be protestants in identity but hardly christian in lifestyle, so i have noticed. Just saying..
nope..I have not read any of Augustine yet, But from what i hear he didnt finish well..as was the case with Calvin, and sadly even Luther got caught up in the spread of the gospel by force, and at least the case with Calvin, and i heard possibly with Luther(must look into it, and even with Augustine) that they were murderers. I know for a fact Calvin was of at least one person(Serventus) And there was no proof of Calvin ever mentioning his born again,new birth experience..what it seen however is his pointing to his catholic baby baptism(it seems as if Calvin held onto much of the catholicism he allegedly hated, sounds confusing to me)
But yes, i saw that luther movie..it was good. And God used a highly flawed man like Luther during the reformation. Sadly many protestants are all too proud to be protestants in identity but hardly christian in lifestyle, so i have noticed. Just saying..
right then.
well, maybe we'll have a discussion about that sometime.
Re: Is fellowship possible between <Lutherans> and <Wesleyans>?
cool.
no, to begin with he wasn't antisemitic at all...his rants came after he found the Talmud.
please know your Reformation figures and timelines.
and Talmud.
thank you.
how can you not have any issues with Lutheranism, or specifically my being monergist?
i thought Arminians were 100% freewillers?
or...summink....
um....the arminian is dead in trespasses and sins but God is Gracious and Merciful and grants a free gift of a straight and righteous will, pure freewill so the arminian can reject Him?
i don't get it.
hmmm.....lemme sleep on it.
i'm feeling inspired already
wesley doubted being saved before his death, eh? tsk....that's tragic. no assurance in spite of all that holiness and second blessing and stuff.
he said in a letter to his bro Charles that he never really believed.
at all.
quite a sinner he was too....he liked married women.
sad.
ttyl.
well, maybe we'll have a discussion about that sometime.
Re: Is fellowship possible between <Lutherans> and <Wesleyans>?
cool.
no, to begin with he wasn't antisemitic at all...his rants came after he found the Talmud.
please know your Reformation figures and timelines.
and Talmud.
thank you.
how can you not have any issues with Lutheranism, or specifically my being monergist?
i thought Arminians were 100% freewillers?
or...summink....
um....the arminian is dead in trespasses and sins but God is Gracious and Merciful and grants a free gift of a straight and righteous will, pure freewill so the arminian can reject Him?
i don't get it.
hmmm.....lemme sleep on it.
i'm feeling inspired already
wesley doubted being saved before his death, eh? tsk....that's tragic. no assurance in spite of all that holiness and second blessing and stuff.
he said in a letter to his bro Charles that he never really believed.
at all.
quite a sinner he was too....he liked married women.
sad.
ttyl.