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Well rather than go over all of your post, what is your understanding of the following two verses?
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom 3:31
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace(through faith)
Rom6:14
Concerning Rom7:7-11, can I put something to you?
A child is given rules by their parents. One rule maybe, don't touch electrical sockets, another don't touch the telephone, another do not touch the computer. What happens once the child is given these rules? Huge excitement is stirred in them to break the rules they have been given, it is basic human nature(sin if you like for an adult). Now if they were not given the rules, they would sometimes, inevitabley be drawn to touch that which they should not touch, but the allure would not be so great to do so. And the power of rules is in the punikshment that follows if you are caught breaking them
Now try and relate that to the following:
Whar shall we say then? Is the law sin? Nay, I had not known sin but by the law: for I had not known lust except the law had said. 'Thou shalt not covet'
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead
For I was alive without the law once, but when the comamndment came sin revivied and I died.
And the commandment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment deceived me, and by it slew me
Bear in mind constantly Rom6:14& Rom3:31
It is not hard to see then what Paul is telling us
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It is a new law.
It is something that causes the believer to walk in His Statutes.
It is what fulfills the Law.
The Lord Jesus Christ has given us a brand new way.
Love. The Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
It is something that causes the believer to walk in His Statutes.
It is what fulfills the Law.
The Lord Jesus Christ has given us a brand new way.
Love. The Holy Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
No, not for the sincere Christian
The Israelites had the written law, but their hearts were hard. God told Moses to tell the people to circuimcise their hearts, but they did not do so, their hearts were far away, but the new covenant is very different to the old one, our herarts are not hard, because:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh
And I will put my spirtit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
Ezekiel 36:26&27
And circumcision is circumcision by the Spirit, not by the written code
Rom 2:29
Now, in relation to the quote from Ezekiel:
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declartes the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawlwess deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17
Do you not see, the Lord has softened our hearts so that we want to obey, unlike the Israelites of the OT, therefore, we need have no fear of punishment for Christ died for our imperfections, we are free to serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code
The Israelites had the written law, but their hearts were hard. God told Moses to tell the people to circuimcise their hearts, but they did not do so, their hearts were far away, but the new covenant is very different to the old one, our herarts are not hard, because:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh
And I will put my spirtit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
Ezekiel 36:26&27
And circumcision is circumcision by the Spirit, not by the written code
Rom 2:29
Now, in relation to the quote from Ezekiel:
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declartes the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawlwess deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:16&17
Do you not see, the Lord has softened our hearts so that we want to obey, unlike the Israelites of the OT, therefore, we need have no fear of punishment for Christ died for our imperfections, we are free to serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code
Rather than go over all my post? Have you properly gone over any of it? What version are you working with anyway? Its quite crude for theological discussions. I like many versions, but the one you're using sorely lacks finnesse.
You want two verse? Does your attention span last long enough to go over even one? Lets see with Romans 3:31:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law.
Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Read the first sentence though. The question is this:
Do we abolish the law? Do we loose the effect of the law? Does the law vanish? Does the Law fail? Is the law done away with?
Howver you want to phrase it thats what is asked.
And the answer?
NO
However you read it, the question is 'is the law gone?' and the answer is 'no'.
And the post note?
We establish the law.
Said other ways:
We Abide by the law. We hold fast to the Law. We Present people with the law. We continue the law. We keep the law.
It is a comparison contrast using antonyms. By our faith we keep the law. Without faith we will be an enemy of the law, and want to tear it down, but in faith, we will keep it. This is the essence of this whole section of scripture.
That's not even an 'understanding' of the passage. That's what it says no matter how you slice it or re-translate it.
Lay aside your presuppositions and whatever weirdness you've been indoctrinated with and just read the passage. Does faith mean we cancel the law? NO! It means we keep the law.
Ah, you're basing your assumptions on being so much better than Israel. Remember what I said about hubris?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
You need to stop boating against the Israelite. That is said plainly.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
You need to stop boating against the Israelite. That is said plainly.
I'm afraid you will ignore any warning of scripture, no mater how plainly it is written. Nor will you consider and think about the things said to you. I can offer you only one more thing.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Listen to what he said, listen to what he said about the commandments, listen to what he asked his people to do. You cannot say you serve someone without actually doing what they say! Don't just hear, do, learn what he wants and do it. It really is your only hope, it is everyone's only hope.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
Listen to what he said, listen to what he said about the commandments, listen to what he asked his people to do. You cannot say you serve someone without actually doing what they say! Don't just hear, do, learn what he wants and do it. It really is your only hope, it is everyone's only hope.
Once again
Read Rom 3:31 & Rom 6:14
And tell me, do you not invite friends and relatives home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, and blind, so that you may recieve your reward from your Father in Heaven?
Please answer honestly
Only as you stress obediance to the law/commandments I assume you must
Read Rom 3:31 & Rom 6:14
And tell me, do you not invite friends and relatives home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, and blind, so that you may recieve your reward from your Father in Heaven?
Please answer honestly
Only as you stress obediance to the law/commandments I assume you must
I said quite plainly what Romans 3:31 meant. Romans 3:31 is as plain a passage as you can get. You didn't so much as give a decent reply to that, but replied in pride and ignorance.
Romans 6:14 is almost as simple, though like all scripture it benefits enormously from the surrounding context.
But you know what? I already dealt with this in a previous post you didn't address.
The verse is different but the concept is the same.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
When you are the carnal man sin dominates you. And the law convicts you. The sentence is death. That is the power of the law, to bring conviction and death. If you are under its power, you are convicted. When you are no longer under its power, but under the power of Grace, you can be made alive again, and convicted no more.
Now, continue reading, remembering what I said about context:
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Since we will no longer die for breaking the law should we sin? (Remember, Sin is a transgression of the law). The question here is should we now break the law because we won't die for breaking the law? The answer is the same as last time:
NO!
God forbid, if we do that we don't understand grace at all.
Romans 6:14 is almost as simple, though like all scripture it benefits enormously from the surrounding context.
But you know what? I already dealt with this in a previous post you didn't address.
The verse is different but the concept is the same.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
When you are the carnal man sin dominates you. And the law convicts you. The sentence is death. That is the power of the law, to bring conviction and death. If you are under its power, you are convicted. When you are no longer under its power, but under the power of Grace, you can be made alive again, and convicted no more.
Now, continue reading, remembering what I said about context:
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Since we will no longer die for breaking the law should we sin? (Remember, Sin is a transgression of the law). The question here is should we now break the law because we won't die for breaking the law? The answer is the same as last time:
NO!
God forbid, if we do that we don't understand grace at all.
A couple of years ago, my mother was given threee months to live. My wife and I looked after her as she lay dying. During this time I did not covet what was hers, steal from her, want to murder her, I did not bear false witness against her, and I honoured her.
Did I have to think of the ten Commandemts to treat her this way? No!
It was because I loved her.
Please try and understand
You understand here up to a point, that is good, but what you seem unable to understand is that by God writing his laws on our hearts and minds, this means that in our hearts we want to obey, so why do you keep stressing what the Christian already wants to do, obey God/his laws, you are not understanding this part of the new covenant I am afraid
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M
Precisely, but there is a catch 22
There is only one who was righteous enough not to sin.
Therefore contrary to what some preach and believe, we still have Gods law as a measure of our iniquities, unless a person never sins that is the only circumstance they are not under the law
and if one is not under the law they are acting ABOVE the law.
Unless of course we find another alternative, a middle ground.
To not be under or above, but IN LINE WITH THE LAW.
We havent been given the authority to remove Gods law, or his commandments.
Only the lawMAKER has this authority
And Christ said All Authority in earth and heaven has been given to him.
And he also said that he came not to abolish the law.
We may not be under the law of eye for an eye or stoning people to purge sin.
God can act as he sees fit and make changes accordingly. Any changes to the previous law were outlined by Christ.
Its like the parable Christ told about some workers working all day and some arriving at the end of the day but getting the same wage for less work done.
The master delegates how generous he feels to be ...or not. And its not for us to complain whine or grumble over our particular lot in life which many people dont seem to understand.
Its better to know what one is created for and do the very best they can in the circumstances they have been assigned to.
(the ones who continue to sin anyway didnt know what sin was were it not for the law)
So how does a current day sinner know their own sin and come to the realization they need Christ if there is no longer any law.
Are we to govern ourselves?
Certainly not! since each person would make up their own rules principles and laws to suit themselves which would introduce chaos....wait I seem to see a lot of churches in chaos due to trying to remove certain things from the bible,,,, such as the law
Yeah I know, once were saved theres no longer condemnation
This doesnt mean there isnt rules and guidlines to adhere to and follow.
Who would erroneously ever consider Gods kingdom to not be run with order?
Perfect harmonious order that has very little to do with making oneself happy but instead to be joyous in what the Lord has given as well as what he has asked of them.
The more I read Gods word, the more it becomes evident.
It could be considered that ALL of Gods word, his teachings what pleases him and what doesnt
Is law
If not, then by what standards would we get judged by on the great day of judgment. how would anyone suspect Gods righteous decree has been abolished,
Why would Christ say if you love me you will Obey my Commands.
The word command is indicative of do it or else there is repercussion, consequences, lessons still to be learned through more difficult ways than would have been learned had one just listened the first time.
And Obey doesnt mean do it if ya feel like it, when ya get around to it or when ya get the chance.
In Ecclesiastes we are told the conclusion:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man.
Weve been given a duty.
If it is assumed we no longer have a duty then we no longer have a purpose. And if one no longer has a purpose they would revert back to serving the self.
If Im wrong, I tend to err on the safer side of the fence.
Im a believer not just in Christ, but what he stands for, that is how I show him I am a follower and he is the leader
That is how I show him I love him as well as respect him.
Im under the law because Im still a sinner.
There is only one who was righteous enough not to sin.
Therefore contrary to what some preach and believe, we still have Gods law as a measure of our iniquities, unless a person never sins that is the only circumstance they are not under the law
and if one is not under the law they are acting ABOVE the law.
Unless of course we find another alternative, a middle ground.
To not be under or above, but IN LINE WITH THE LAW.
We havent been given the authority to remove Gods law, or his commandments.
Only the lawMAKER has this authority
And Christ said All Authority in earth and heaven has been given to him.
And he also said that he came not to abolish the law.
We may not be under the law of eye for an eye or stoning people to purge sin.
God can act as he sees fit and make changes accordingly. Any changes to the previous law were outlined by Christ.
Its like the parable Christ told about some workers working all day and some arriving at the end of the day but getting the same wage for less work done.
The master delegates how generous he feels to be ...or not. And its not for us to complain whine or grumble over our particular lot in life which many people dont seem to understand.
Its better to know what one is created for and do the very best they can in the circumstances they have been assigned to.
(the ones who continue to sin anyway didnt know what sin was were it not for the law)
So how does a current day sinner know their own sin and come to the realization they need Christ if there is no longer any law.
Are we to govern ourselves?
Certainly not! since each person would make up their own rules principles and laws to suit themselves which would introduce chaos....wait I seem to see a lot of churches in chaos due to trying to remove certain things from the bible,,,, such as the law
Yeah I know, once were saved theres no longer condemnation
This doesnt mean there isnt rules and guidlines to adhere to and follow.
Who would erroneously ever consider Gods kingdom to not be run with order?
Perfect harmonious order that has very little to do with making oneself happy but instead to be joyous in what the Lord has given as well as what he has asked of them.
The more I read Gods word, the more it becomes evident.
It could be considered that ALL of Gods word, his teachings what pleases him and what doesnt
Is law
If not, then by what standards would we get judged by on the great day of judgment. how would anyone suspect Gods righteous decree has been abolished,
Why would Christ say if you love me you will Obey my Commands.
The word command is indicative of do it or else there is repercussion, consequences, lessons still to be learned through more difficult ways than would have been learned had one just listened the first time.
And Obey doesnt mean do it if ya feel like it, when ya get around to it or when ya get the chance.
In Ecclesiastes we are told the conclusion:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man.
Weve been given a duty.
If it is assumed we no longer have a duty then we no longer have a purpose. And if one no longer has a purpose they would revert back to serving the self.
If Im wrong, I tend to err on the safer side of the fence.
Im a believer not just in Christ, but what he stands for, that is how I show him I am a follower and he is the leader
That is how I show him I love him as well as respect him.
Im under the law because Im still a sinner.
You seem to not understand that there are more Christian views than dispensationalism.
But what I'm stressing is that there are many, many times Christians do not want to obey or do not know what to do. In those situations we need to tell them what they ought to do and why. It's part of teaching and discipleship.
It seems the things you assume I don't understand reflect only on the things you actually do not understand...
But what I'm stressing is that there are many, many times Christians do not want to obey or do not know what to do. In those situations we need to tell them what they ought to do and why. It's part of teaching and discipleship.
It seems the things you assume I don't understand reflect only on the things you actually do not understand...
I understand the new covenant.
The law is internal to the Christian, not external, the Christian wants to obey, they feel it acutely when they err, for the Holy Spirit lives in them, and when people place demands on them that they do not keep themselves it just crushes the sincere, I know that is true. The following helps explain where the law is:
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts
2Cor3:3
The law is internal to the Christian, not external, the Christian wants to obey, they feel it acutely when they err, for the Holy Spirit lives in them, and when people place demands on them that they do not keep themselves it just crushes the sincere, I know that is true. The following helps explain where the law is:
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts
2Cor3:3
That chapter isn't even talking about the law. That's irritating because there are similar verses, which I've both presented and explained, which ARE talking about the law...
Read your references before you post them please...
Let be clear about this:
I KNOW THE LAW IS IN THE HEART NOW
Now, be clear about this
Do you understand that it is the SAME law that people had before?
And as an after-note, try the spirits. Many say they have the spirit of God but are deceivers, we're warned about that. One of the quickest and surest ways to check is to see if The law in their heart lines up with the Law of God that was written.
Because if it doesn't they have a problem.
Read your references before you post them please...
Let be clear about this:
I KNOW THE LAW IS IN THE HEART NOW
Now, be clear about this
Do you understand that it is the SAME law that people had before?
And as an after-note, try the spirits. Many say they have the spirit of God but are deceivers, we're warned about that. One of the quickest and surest ways to check is to see if The law in their heart lines up with the Law of God that was written.
Because if it doesn't they have a problem.