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My concern is the degree to which most parents who go in for 'courting' end up wanting to micromanage and legislate everything. This doesn't just apply to dating. I don't know what convinced so many American parents that responsible parenting meant being paranoid and tyrannical (though they seem to believe the same thing about government, too). It's sad that it seems to be prevalent among Christians.
Parents who make rules upon rules end up getting one of them broken, and then the kid goes "ah, what the heck, I already messed up on this!" I have seen many younger people in churches I've attended basically flee their parents.
My father and mother taught me about God, discipline and manners as best they could. Beyond that they knew that attempting to control another human being is usually fruitless and unjust.
Parents who make rules upon rules end up getting one of them broken, and then the kid goes "ah, what the heck, I already messed up on this!" I have seen many younger people in churches I've attended basically flee their parents.
My father and mother taught me about God, discipline and manners as best they could. Beyond that they knew that attempting to control another human being is usually fruitless and unjust.
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Why would a man want to marry a woman who has no sense of her own moral compass and no sense of her own independent self interest.
I certainly would never marry a woman who was swinging from her father to me, as if from tree to tree. I think there has to be a sense of individuality, of self, of moral purpose, of independent identity.
She would almost be liable to fall for someone way older than her, because he reminds her of her father.
I certainly would never marry a woman who was swinging from her father to me, as if from tree to tree. I think there has to be a sense of individuality, of self, of moral purpose, of independent identity.
She would almost be liable to fall for someone way older than her, because he reminds her of her father.
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What's Wrong with Meeting People in Church or Through Family?
Sound good to me as long as you aren't dating family.
Sound good to me as long as you aren't dating family.
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I can see no logical connexion between being under the authority of your father and having 'no sense of independent self interest'. First of all, even ten year olds have these things. Secondly, that's the Biblical family - if you don't like it, wrong religion bud.
Is that the impression you have of Sarah? Do you doubt she was under her father's authority? If not, why the business with indentured servitude for her father?
Do you have an actual basis for your assertions, or do you just like caricaturing people who aren't modernist who believe in atomizing families at 18?
Is that the impression you have of Sarah? Do you doubt she was under her father's authority? If not, why the business with indentured servitude for her father?
Do you have an actual basis for your assertions, or do you just like caricaturing people who aren't modernist who believe in atomizing families at 18?
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This is an article with some citations: The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy - Vision Forum Ministries
And many may consider this old-fashioned, but women do not speak in our church. Somehow I feel I have been able to develop some independent sense of self despite that
And many may consider this old-fashioned, but women do not speak in our church. Somehow I feel I have been able to develop some independent sense of self despite that
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1 Corinthians 14, "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. "
I don't know how it can get any plainer than that. The liberals basically just have to toss that passage out to get their way.
I don't know how it can get any plainer than that. The liberals basically just have to toss that passage out to get their way.
A: You sidestepped my first question, so I rephrased it.
B:I see your Sarah and I raise you a Ruth, an Ester, a Tamar and an Abigail.
C: Modernist? No. I'm speaking from experience.
It sounds to me like an excuse for not having to actually be in the world.
This is what I'm hearing....
I don't care if my husband loves me, as long as he provides me with babies and an income. He has to take me to the right church and protect me, but any unnecessary emotional attachment is a silly western modern concoction.
To be honest this has more in common with playing house than any authentic marriage.
B:I see your Sarah and I raise you a Ruth, an Ester, a Tamar and an Abigail.
C: Modernist? No. I'm speaking from experience.
It sounds to me like an excuse for not having to actually be in the world.
This is what I'm hearing....
I don't care if my husband loves me, as long as he provides me with babies and an income. He has to take me to the right church and protect me, but any unnecessary emotional attachment is a silly western modern concoction.
To be honest this has more in common with playing house than any authentic marriage.
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I raise your experience the Word of God Almighty, creator of the Heavens and Earth, creator of all things seen and unseen. He says that until you get married your dad is the head of your family, and afterward your husband is, and that he has authority over his family, though he is to rule with love and kindness he is also entitled to use corporal means to maintain the family.
A father is a priest, prophet and king for his family, as Christ is for the church.
And whatever it sounds like to you, and however little it may match your notions of romanticist marriage, it in fact resembles the vast majority of marriages in the world for all of human history before the liberal atomist emotionalism became dominant. Of course having a good relationship with your husband is great, which is why you don't marry the first jet-skiing Presbyterian you meet, but some subjective personal whims and petty entitlement claims are hardly the core of marriage.
Romantic love is presented as the basis of the marriage maybe two times in the Bible, and in both cases it involved incredibly pious individuals.
A father is a priest, prophet and king for his family, as Christ is for the church.
And whatever it sounds like to you, and however little it may match your notions of romanticist marriage, it in fact resembles the vast majority of marriages in the world for all of human history before the liberal atomist emotionalism became dominant. Of course having a good relationship with your husband is great, which is why you don't marry the first jet-skiing Presbyterian you meet, but some subjective personal whims and petty entitlement claims are hardly the core of marriage.
Romantic love is presented as the basis of the marriage maybe two times in the Bible, and in both cases it involved incredibly pious individuals.
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If I may, concerning being under authority:
The law of vows is one of the more thorough example of where that comes from and what it means.
As for Liamson's comment; self interest is over-rated. Corporate intrest should take care of individuals as well or better than self-interest. Marridge especially calls for quite a bit of self-sacrifice for the family on the part of both the husband and wife. Well developed self-interest doesn't practically benefit anyone, even the self-interested person.
And I had to smile at this comment:
And your experience is? Modern North America...
The law of vows is one of the more thorough example of where that comes from and what it means.
As for Liamson's comment; self interest is over-rated. Corporate intrest should take care of individuals as well or better than self-interest. Marridge especially calls for quite a bit of self-sacrifice for the family on the part of both the husband and wife. Well developed self-interest doesn't practically benefit anyone, even the self-interested person.
And I had to smile at this comment:
And your experience is? Modern North America...
And I raise you... The Song of Solomon.
The Shulamite Woman leaves King Solomon for her shepherd boy, because her heart belongs to the shepherd. She escapes the very harem of King Solomon to be with the Man her heart belongs to. It proves How God's heart works and He feels about Love. King Solomon could have been her protector, benefactor, provider, spiritual head, etc but none of those things amount to what true love means.
"Many waters cannot quench love, Nor will rivers overflow it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, It would be utterly despised." SoS 8:7
God is Love. And Our Father in Heaven knows what He is doing. It is not for us to try and circumvent His design for us. He who made our hearts, our minds, and the makeup of our being knows us.
Yes God our Father but, my point in bringing up Abigail and Ruth and Tamar was to say that His ways are not our ways and His Wisdom is beyond our understanding. You try and supercede God, by claiming that a woman should stay with her father until a man rides in to take her in as a dependent.
There is no Narrative that supercedes Love. There is no "right way" apart from God, who is Love. And Frankly as the Bible is evidence, anything is at His disposal.
There is a wrong way, and it is to leave Love at the Door and replace it with a formula for trying selfishly to meet our own perceived needs.
The Shulamite Woman leaves King Solomon for her shepherd boy, because her heart belongs to the shepherd. She escapes the very harem of King Solomon to be with the Man her heart belongs to. It proves How God's heart works and He feels about Love. King Solomon could have been her protector, benefactor, provider, spiritual head, etc but none of those things amount to what true love means.
"Many waters cannot quench love, Nor will rivers overflow it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, It would be utterly despised." SoS 8:7
God is Love. And Our Father in Heaven knows what He is doing. It is not for us to try and circumvent His design for us. He who made our hearts, our minds, and the makeup of our being knows us.
Yes God our Father but, my point in bringing up Abigail and Ruth and Tamar was to say that His ways are not our ways and His Wisdom is beyond our understanding. You try and supercede God, by claiming that a woman should stay with her father until a man rides in to take her in as a dependent.
There is no Narrative that supercedes Love. There is no "right way" apart from God, who is Love. And Frankly as the Bible is evidence, anything is at His disposal.
There is a wrong way, and it is to leave Love at the Door and replace it with a formula for trying selfishly to meet our own perceived needs.
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@Liamson: I already alluded to Solomon. I did not say romantic love was absent from the Bible. The Psalms are full of love poetry. The point was that it is NOT the basis of marriage. Some people in marriage were romantically in love. But to think that this is the norm, or the foundation, or your right, is just to fall into delusional selfishness.