Paul did NOT die to the law!

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Jan 11, 2013
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It is plain to see what I believe, but reading my posts, esp the longer ones, is a prerequisite. What you are saying has very little do with what I beleive though.

How could I talk of striving? I have said these things are easy and natrual to the New Man. There is no strife or effort to that which is easy and natural.

I've spoken only of Joy when talking about the law. It may be strife to you but peace to me.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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It is plain to see what I believe, but reading my posts, esp the longer ones, is a prerequisite. What you are saying has very little do with what I beleive though.

How could I talk of striving? I have said these things are easy and natrual to the New Man. There is no strife or effort to that which is easy and natural.

I've spoken only of Joy when talking about the law. It may be strife to you but peace to me.
It is very easy to come onto the internet and say much.
You see, for the sincere Christian they feel acutely all of their shortcomings. The truth is, their battle is not to give up, believing they are too much of a sinner for God.
And for many, many years I saw people like this, grieved by their own shortcomings. And you know what, another Christian would come up to them and make them feel even worse by reciting a long list of things they must do and point out(in love?) their faults that needed to be addressed.
The law can only make you conscious of your sin
Rom3:20

When a person become a Christian in their heart they want to please and obey God, this is because the Holy Spirit has entered their life and written the good and Holy laws of God on their heart and mind
Their conscience now bears witness to their shortcomings and faliures, they have but one hope, to look to Christ, and trust him to give them victory by the power of the indwelling Spirit who sanctifies them (Rom 15:16)

I talk of victory by faith in Christ and the Spirits power
You speak of easily striving and succeeding in obeying all of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels

The reason sin shall not be a persons master, is because they are not under law but under Grace

For the POWER of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Because faith in Christ is our one and only righteousness in God's sight for the whole of our Christian lives, sins power is fatally weakened in respect of mastering us, though we will never be perfect in the flesh on this earth
Victory is by looking to Jesus and trusting him, not looking to the literal law and striving to obey it!
 
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Jan 11, 2013
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When have I denied shortcomings? But Christs commands are not hard.

What say you? That Christs commands are not meant to be obeyed if you don't feel like it?

You're as anti-nomian as they come, as Christs own commands are too much law for you... Its rather sad.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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When have I denied shortcomings? But Christs commands are not hard.

What say you? That Christs commands are not meant to be obeyed if you don't feel like it?

You're as anti-nomian as they come, as Christs own commands are too much law for you... Its rather sad.
I think Paul took a different view to you as to how to obey Christ's teachings


Carry one anothers burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ
Gal6:2

I can't understand myself how it is carrying anothers burdens by saying it is easy to obey all of Christ's individual commands in the Gospels. I would say, that if a sincere person believed what you are saying, you would in effect be crushing them, not making their burden lighter.

So to Paul, we carry each others burdens, to you we look to, and strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels, and you ask people to believe this is what you do, and it is easy for you to succeed in this
 
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cfultz3

Guest
So to Paul, we carry each others burdens, to you we look to, and strive to obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels, and you ask people to believe this is what you do, and it is easy for you to succeed in this
You make it seem it is a bad thing to strive to obey in faith

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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Jan 11, 2013
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Carrying others burdens is having patience with them and sympathy for their plight. It also means helping them through sin so they can get past it. Letting the know the burden will not always be there is a tremendous help, as they feel like its always going to be there.

You seem to be saying that carrying others burdens is telling them 'its ok, everyone fails, so just keep on hauling your own load'.

But again:

What say you? That Christs commands are not meant to be obeyed if you don't feel like it?
 
Jan 11, 2013
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You make it seem it is a bad thing to strike to obey in faith

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This is exactly what I've been trying to communicate. Thank you.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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You make it seem it is a bad thing to strike to obey in faith

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Obediance comes from faith(Rom1:5) not by looking to and striving to obey each and every literal command in scripture. We trust Christ to do in us what we cannot do for ourselves

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3

That way you find-without concentrating on striving to obey individual laws you are better upholding them

Obediance comes from Faith
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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You make it seem it is a bad thing to strike to obey in faith

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Obediance comes from faith(Rom1:5) not by looking to and striving to obey each and every literal command in scripture. We trust Christ to do in us what we cannot do for ourselves

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3

That way you find-without concentrating on striving to obey individual laws you are better upholding them

Obediance comes from Faith
When the individual laws are in your heart you don't actually have to concentrate on them or strive to obey them...

Most things in your heart are not difficult and do not require concentration. I don't think about which keys my fingers are striking on a keyboard, because its something I'm trained to do. Its not difficult, because its part of who I am and what I can do.

And yes, I can find each individual little letter on the keyboard, and strike them as need be. It only seems like a lot when you aren't trained to type. Understand my meaning?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Obediance comes from faith(Rom1:5) not by looking to and striving to obey each and every literal command in scripture. We trust Christ to do in us what we cannot do for ourselves

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3

That way you find-without concentrating on striving to obey individual laws you are better upholding them

Obediance comes from Faith
I just presented verses which say that is it those who keep the commandments and the faith in Christ who are blessed and who are the ones who will be persecuted by the dragon and those who will inherit everlasting life. You make of them as you wish.

May I suggest that you read Romans 1:5 as the apostles having recieved grace and apostleship to have brought about the obedience of the faith, with emphasize on grace and apostileship as it pertains to them. But that obedience comes from a servant who is willing to lay aside his will to follow his Lord's will, much the same as our very own Lord did towards His God and Father. And that faith which we place in Christ for salvation is obtained when we adhere to His command: come and follow me. Truly, He will lead us home, but we must obey His leading.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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When the individual laws are in your heart you don't actually have to concentrate on them or strive to obey them...

Most things in your heart are not difficult and do not require concentration. I don't think about which keys my fingers are striking on a keyboard, because its something I'm trained to do. Its not difficult, because its part of who I am and what I can do.

And yes, I can find each individual little letter on the keyboard, and strike them as need be. It only seems like a lot when you aren't trained to type. Understand my meaning?
I understand what you are saying, yes, but I don't agree with you, the Christian life is not as easy as you appear to make out it is
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
When the individual laws are in your heart you don't actually have to concentrate on them or strive to obey them...

Most things in your heart are not difficult and do not require concentration. I don't think about which keys my fingers are striking on a keyboard, because its something I'm trained to do. Its not difficult, because its part of who I am and what I can do.

And yes, I can find each individual little letter on the keyboard, and strike them as need be. It only seems like a lot when you aren't trained to type. Understand my meaning?
I do. Obedience is natural to the one seeking the straight and narrow path carved out by our God's guidance.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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I just presented verses which say that is it those who keep the commandments and the faith in Christ who are blessed and who are the ones who will be persecuted by the dragon and those who will inherit everlasting life. You make of them as you wish.

May I suggest that you read Romans 1:5 as the apostles having recieved grace and apostleship to have brought about the obedience of the faith, with emphasize on grace and apostileship as it pertains to them. But that obedience comes from a servant who is willing to lay aside his will to follow his Lord's will, much the same as our very own Lord did towards His God and Father. And that faith which we place in Christ for salvation is obtained when we adhere to His command: come and follow me. Truly, He will lead us home, but we must obey His leading.

But how are the comandments kept?

By a life of faith(Rom1:5)
And because a person is not under law but under grace

But I agree, it is how much the Christian is prepared to yield from the heart to God, that is the question isn't it

But It is the spirit who sanctifies the Christian, the Christian does not sanctify themselves
 
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Jan 12, 2013
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Peter gives us a warning about the writings of Paul.....and for a very good reason. Paul's writings are HARD to understand.

Let's look at Romans Chapter 7:


Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Right from the start what does Paul ask us to consider? Are the laws of God bad? And what does he tell us? NO!!! He then goes on to say....if it were not for the laws of God he would not have known that it was wrong to covet.

Now readers....do you believe Paul stopped reading at this one law of do not covet? Of course not! Paul was a student of God's word. He knew ALL of God's laws. So NO....he did not stop at "Do not covet.". Let's continue with chap. 7;

[8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Above Paul tells us that because of the knowledge of God's laws, this knowledge made him aware of all manner of lustful desires. For before Paul knew God's laws....sin was dead to him. He didn't know that what he was doing was wrong in the eyes of the Lord. Let's continue.....

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Above Paul tells us that we was alive without God's laws. Now what do you think he meant? He meant the same thing and felt the same way we all did before knowing that certain actions were wrong in the eyes of God. We thought we were alive and living it up. Doing what we wanted, when we wanted and not having to give account to anyone.

But what happened when Paul became aware of God's laws? What happened when the "...commandment came..."? Sin was made know to him. When he read that it was wrong to covet....that old Paul...the one that was living it up had to die. The LAW did NOT die. The old man....the man that was living it up had to die. Paul did NOT die to the law. God's laws made Paul aware that what he was doing was wrong and that old Paul is the one that died. Let's read more....

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Readers....please take note to what Paul says above. Let's read it closely again;


"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."


Paul tells us that God's laws were ordained to LIFE. Now what life could Paul be speaking of? He was already alive! The life that the laws would give, if kept, was ETERNAL LIFE! That is what God's laws give to those that keep them. We have proof of this throughout the entire bible. Keeping God's laws could give not only eternal life....but doing as God commands could also give physical life. Consider the days of Noah. Consider the punishment of Sodom. Consider the nation of Israel.

And of course we know what Jesus tells us gives life eternal; Keeping God's commandments. Let's prove this with scripture;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keeping the laws and commandments of God allows entrance into His kingdom. Now let's continue to what else happened to Paul when God's commandments were made known to him;

"...I found to be unto death."

And what was it that died? Again.....Paul already told us. It was that old Paul that died. Once Paul became aware of God's laws and the knowledge of sin...that old Paul...the one, just like us, that was living it up had to die. Paul could not go on serving 2 masters. Either he had to serve God or serve sin. Paul chose to serve God and obey His laws. Let's continue....

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Again Paul tells us that God's laws are HOLY, JUST and GOOD! How could it be that such laws were nailed to Christ's cross? How could these laws that Paul says, were ordained to give life, no longer be needed or kept?

[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul presents us with another question. He asks... Could that which was good, speaking of God's laws, cause him to die? Could keeping God's laws cause Paul to die? Again he tells us NO! But what was it that caused death in Paul? Knowing what sin was and that he could not continue therein caused him to die. Not only that...but now having the knowledge of God's laws made sin appear even MORE sinful.



Readers.....Paul did NOT die to the law. We are NOT dead to God's laws. The knowledge of God's laws brings about death to the old Paul....to the old US.


God's laws are ordained to life....life ETERNAL!



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His writings are about perspective.

He says that much of his life, he knew not law. And when it came to him, his life as he knew it was over. For in the life he has previously had, the law showed him he could not live that life anymore.

Ie. the law brought him rules. and he realised all his wrongs.

He is also saying (before verse seven) that the law made him rebellious. Because it was as rules without real reason in his mind.

He says that when Jesus died, then men could 'marry' a new kind of life. No longer bogged down in law, using law to cover bad morals. No longer finding loopholes to see what one could get away with. But there was a new life in Jesus. Whereby people lived by faith, and love, and hope, rather than by strict law.

Then he says something like 'I bet you're all thinking, what's the point of law then? Surely the law is sinful then~ No certainly not. It had a good function. Without it, I wouldn't have even known what 'coveting' was.

He is saying here that the law itself was good. But sin made a certain 'forbidden fruit' out of it. Like whenever your parents say 'dont do that', and you want to do what you know you aren't meant to. And even if you don't give in and do it, you still 'desire to do it'. Y'know?

He was saying, that the very commandments that are meant to give him freedom, and life, ended up being a tool to enslave him, and tempt him towards the things that bring him death.

He goes on to say that he then partook in the things that he knew he shouldn't do. He indulged in things he despised. And the temptation was strong. So for this kind of reason, then God's commandments are necessary. Because he himself in his own mind, couldn't even stay away from what he knew already was wrong!

He finished off this chapter like 'Thankfully Jesus set right things in this world; where I want to do what is right, but temptation influences me to ignore my desire for doing what is right'.

This whole verse isn't about spiritual death vs literal death, it's about Paul's perspective changing as Jesus' teachings influenced him, and about the new kind of belief that Jesus' gave him.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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I understand what you are saying, yes, but I don't agree with you, the Christian life is not as easy as you appear to make out it is
Then we well may be in different places. That's not a bad thing. The only thing I really care about in this is that you understand that eventually any Christian following along the road to the Kingdom will find Christs commands to be natural and easy. All of them.

And that His commands are important, and to be taught and taken seriously.

Can we agree to that at least?
 
Jan 11, 2013
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I do. Obedience is natural to the one seeking the straight and narrow path carved out by our God's guidance.
Well thank you :) I appreciate it. Your comment is a blessing to me.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
But how are the comandments kept?

By a life of faith(Rom1:5)
And because a person is not under law but under grace

But I agree, it is how much the Christian is prepared to yield from the heart to God, that is the question isn't it

But It is the spirit who sanctifies the Christian, the Christian does not sanctify themselves
How is the commandments kept: "Come my child, this is the right path", says God. 'OK Lord. I trust you. I choose that path you are pointing at", says the one who obeys the Lords commands.

addition:

May I add that this is the one who keeps the commandments and the faith in Christ.
 
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Then we well may be in different places. That's not a bad thing. The only thing I really care about in this is that you understand that eventually any Christian following along the road to the Kingdom will find Christs commands to be natural and easy. All of them.

And that His commands are important, and to be taught and taken seriously.

Can we agree to that at least?
I think wee can agree that all we need is faith working through love
Can we agree on that?
For love fulfills the law