What's Wrong with Meeting People in Church or Through Family?

[JGPS]

If love were conditional it would be Rational, and dare I say Logical.

But Real Love is Unconditional, and therefore Irrational.

Believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, keeps no track of wrongs... <very irrational.

It is not an insult for love to be considered Irrational. Rather it is a praise that it supersedes rationality. In the same way that by definition Grace is illogical.

What would you think that? You really think unconditional love is irrational? That the Love of God is without reason or purpose?

Christ IS the reason for the universe, he IS the logic behind it. There is nothing more basely rational and right than Gods love an Grace. How could it not be?

Do you think God is irrational? Do you think there is some greater reason than His Will that would name Him irrational? Heaven forbid.

God behaves this way. Its rational.

 

[Liamson]

Oh God! Kierkegaard... Don't even get me started with Fideism...

I wound't call it foolish... You're the only one calling it foolish. I call these acts of Love the most reasonable thing in the universe...

Hebrews 11:1 states that Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

So... its the Essence of Hope and the Belief in the Invisible.

or... the Matters of expectation and the trust in the unsubstantiated.

How is that reasonable?

Either We trust in the things that we can reason with, touch, taste, see or we Trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding.

How is that complicated or "unreasonable"

 

[Liamson]

What would you think that? You really think unconditional love is irrational? That the Love of God is without reason or purpose?

Christ IS the reason for the universe, he IS the logic behind it. There is nothing more basely rational and right than Gods love an Grace. How could it not be?

Do you think God is irrational? Do you think there is some greater reason than His Will that would name Him irrational? Heaven forbid.

God behaves this way. Its rational.

Chicken or Egg?

really if God Chooses something does that make it Rational?

If a choice is Rational and God does not choose it, is it therefore Irrational?

You see the Problem you have created don't you?

The Universe is not Suspended by and neither is God governed by our sense of Rationality and Irrationality.

 

[JGPS]

You're aware that you can have evidence for things without seeing them right?

You're also aware that our Hope in the ressurection is substantial, so much so that we need to be ready to give our reason for it?

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Our Hope is in the most substantial and reasonable thing anyone could ask for, the Oath of God Himself:


Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

We have faith in God for the best reason possible, because he is faithful and shown his faithfulness to us.

Taste and see the Lord is good. Let him Touch you Life. See the transformation he brings. That I trust. It is because he is faithful that we can have faith in him.

Fideism itself is quite cancerous to real faith. Real faith is based on what the Lord has done, because he first loved us and all that. In the end Fideism asks you to ignore what the lord has done and just believe anyway for no reason...

 

[JGPS]

Chicken or Egg?

Chicken. I'm a creationist.

really if God Chooses something does that make it Rational?

Yes, he Is reason...

If a choice is Rational and God does not choose it, is it therefore Irrational?

It does not qualify as a rational choice if it opposes Gods plan. There is no higher reason than God, nor is reason something that exists in a void as its own entity. You're asking what if 1 &#8800;1

You see the Problem you have created don't you?

Yes, I've messed with how you look at reason and before this you havn't quite understood what I meant.

The Universe is not Suspended by and neither is God governed by our sense of Rationality and Irrationality.

I've said several times, Christ IS the Logos. That is what John 1:1 is saying. The universe is superseded by, and indeed created by Gods sense of rationality.

Our sense of it may be flawed, and is not a useful benchmark.

 

[Liamson]

God is not Reason.... That is just silly. God may be Love but God is not whatever WORD we think is cool. God is not Logic. God is not Rationality.

God is God.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD -Isaiah 55:8

 

[JGPS]

God is not Reason.... That is just silly. God may be Love but God is not whatever WORD we think is cool. God is not Logic. God is not Rationality.

God is God.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD -Isaiah 55:8

Christ is the Logos, this means something between logic and reason in our tongue... It's also by the logos of God that miracles where preformed. Though his speech (another word we translate word) was also quite powerful, The Word is different than just plain words.

This is what John 1:1 explicitly says.

I suppose you think the universe is governed by some reason other than Gods? Certainly you don't think it's purpose is something other than Gods.

 

[Liamson]

Christ is the Logos, this means something between logic and reason in our tongue... It's also by the logos of God that miracles where preformed. Though his speech (another word we translate word) was also quite powerful, The Word is different than just plain words.

This is what John 1:1 explicitly says.

I suppose you think the universe is governed by some reason other than Gods? Certainly you don't think it's purpose is something other than Gods.

Ugh... You make God out to be some Kind of Law of Nature. God is a living being, he is not Governed by some Philosophical boundary that we ascribe to Him. God can be negotiated with, reasoned with. He is Omnipotent and Loving but, He is God. He is more than just Reason, and not confined to its boundaries. He created Logic but, He is not Governed by it.

If Hezekiah can negotiate 15 more years to His life, Is that God's Preformulated plan just playing out, like a VHS tape, or is prayer actually an effective tool for reaching God?

If God in Indeed His word then I am inclined to take Him at His word. He was Angry, with His Nation. He regretted creating Man, in Genesis. His description of Himself in is Word is the Truth, more so than some articulated terms we would use to bring definition to something that we can barely grasp.

 

[Jullianna]

And I raise you... The Song of Solomon.

The Shulamite Woman leaves King Solomon for her shepherd boy, because her heart belongs to the shepherd. She escapes the very harem of King Solomon to be with the Man her heart belongs to. It proves How God's heart works and He feels about Love. King Solomon could have been her protector, benefactor, provider, spiritual head, etc but none of those things amount to what true love means.

"Many waters cannot quench love, Nor will rivers overflow it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, It would be utterly despised." SoS 8:7

God is Love. And Our Father in Heaven knows what He is doing. It is not for us to try and circumvent His design for us. He who made our hearts, our minds, and the makeup of our being knows us.

Yes God our Father but, my point in bringing up Abigail and Ruth and Tamar was to say that His ways are not our ways and His Wisdom is beyond our understanding. You try and supercede God, by claiming that a woman should stay with her father until a man rides in to take her in as a dependent.

There is no Narrative that supercedes Love. There is no "right way" apart from God, who is Love. And Frankly as the Bible is evidence, anything is at His disposal.

There is a wrong way, and it is to leave Love at the Door and replace it with a formula for trying selfishly to meet our own perceived needs.

Liamson, I agree. If love is important in the relationship between Christ (the Bridegroom) and His Bride, after which godly marriages are to be modeled, how could it possibly not be important in marriages between godly husbands/wives as well?

We read about the laws of the Old Testament and the marriages of the Old Testament. We read in Matthew 19:8 what ALSO came from that in the words of Jesus:

"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

What else was not to be so from the beginning? How quickly do hearts harden when love is not present and beauty/youth begin to fade?

Give me Jesus/grace/mercy/love over the harshness of the law any day. If Jesus doesn't want less than our love, I don't want to settle for less than love with my spouse here on earth either. He could have created all of us to be mindless, heartless drones programmed to worship Him 24/7, but He didn't. He gave us choices. He gave us love.

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Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for herMatthew 22:37-39 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'


If I had not loved my husband of 15 years, but thought of him only as a robotic seed source/protector/provider, who would have cared for him at the point at which he could no longer have done any of those things?


I find myself wondering whether the real issue may be a lack of understanding of the difference between true love between a man/woman of God and romantic notions gleaned from movies/novels/worldly couples.

 

[Nautilus]

So wait if we shouldn't use personal love as a barometer of whether or not we should marry someone than what should we use? I mean unless youre basically advocating arranged marriages...

Besides dating is how you learn the personal details about someone that may not come up in church. I guess I just dont understand how someone can be so detached from it all

 

[djness]

The dating culture has become exceedingly popular today around most of the world. In this, two people will go out to be alone and engage in more or less romantic relationships. I think this encourages premarital sex, and is really designed to facilitate it; but even when that intention is not on the mind it automatically sets up the people as being in a 'mate' relationship, which can dramatically alter the dynamic.

One alternative, supposedly Christian, is courtship. In reality, courtship is a product of the caricatured formality of medieval political institutions. Its elaborate rules, rituals can to push sexual liasons underground due to the frustration of the absurd difficulties of getting to see someone you might have married five years ago. Add to that the totally alien nature of such customs and the encouragement it gives to parental tyranny and this will not only drive kids away from legitimate marriage but also their family and religion.

I think the alternative is obvious: meet people in church, or friends of family, in a safe and friendly environment where coupling is not de facto on the forefront of everyone's mind, and where the parents don't feel the need to act like the CIA or Gestapo. If you meet a friend of the family or church member you like then you can arrange to be at other family and church functions where they will attend, until you are finally ready to discuss marriage - at which point your families and fellow parishoners should all have some familiarity and evaluative evidence to go on.

I don't even get why there need be such a thing as 'dating' or 'courting', it is essentially an attempt at a pre-marriage marriage; it is not Biblical and it is obviously malfunctioning. Almost every marriage in my family started from family and church events or happenstance meetings of new persons who were then INVITED to family and church events. Certainly if someone is going to be your husband or wife they better be able to sit with your father and go to church with you.

So you are a christian Korean model who lives in a city 40 minutes from me, well the Lord is good, we
should totally date.

 

[Nautilus]

You have to love everyone... You can't not love them.

You realize there are different types of love. And I'll be completely honest I can't say i love everyone out of 7 billion people...there are always a few that are just going to rub you the wrong way long enough

 

[JGPS]

Ugh... You make God out to be some Kind of Law of Nature. God is a living being, he is not Governed by some Philosophical boundary that we ascribe to Him. God can be negotiated with, reasoned with. He is Omnipotent and Loving but, He is God. He is more than just Reason, and not confined to its boundaries. He created Logic but, He is not Governed by it.

I didn't do that at all. Actually quite the opposite. What we call the laws of nature are what they are because he has a reason for them to be so.

Indeed he is more than just reason, just as he is more than just love, more than just justice, more than just grace. But he is the exception of all of these concepts.

You're still approaching reason as if it was something separate from him, as if it was one thing and he was the other and they can come into conflict. But what God does is fully right and just and reasonable. How could it be otherwise?

And John 1:1 says he IS the logos, the logos is co-existent with him, not just a creation per se but actually a creative force... Specifically, Jesus is the Logos made flesh.

If Hezekiah can negotiate 15 more years to His life, Is that God's Preformulated plan just playing out, like a VHS tape, or is prayer actually an effective tool for reaching God?

? Given God is reason and reasonable it follows that you can reason with him? How does this do anything but support my stance?

If God in Indeed His word then I am inclined to take Him at His word. He was Angry, with His Nation. He regretted creating Man, in Genesis. His description of Himself in is Word is the Truth, more so than some articulated terms we would use to bring definition to something that we can barely grasp.

I think here is where we differ. You assume we are reasonable, and when God does his amazing things beyond our comprehension he is being unreasonable. I assume we are unreasonable, and when God does his amazing things we can't understand fully He is the reasonable one.

 

[JGPS]

You realize there are different types of love. And I'll be completely honest I can't say i love everyone out of 7 billion people...there are always a few that are just going to rub you the wrong way long enough

In the proper, important, heavenly love way we must love everyone.

The puppy dog infatuation stage is probably going to happen no matter how you get together, and isn't lasting enough to be important.

Eros is also quite natural, and should arise between two healthy individuals of its own accord. While its an important part of marriage, there is no need to have it in advance.

Familial affection type love is created by the marriage itself, so its also a non-issue.

 

[Jullianna]

In the proper, important, heavenly love way we must love everyone.

The puppy dog infatuation stage is probably going to happen no matter how you get together, and isn't lasting enough to be important.

Eros is also quite natural, and should arise between two healthy individuals of its own accord. While its an important part of marriage, there is no need to have it in advance.

Familial affection type love is created by the marriage itself, so its also a non-issue.

What is the source/basis for these statements?

 

[Jullianna]

If we are going to use Old Testament couples as examples, what about the marriage between David and Michal? How did that work out? What sort of familial love was borne of it?

 

[Liamson]

I didn't do that at all. Actually quite the opposite. What we call the laws of nature are what they are because he has a reason for them to be so.

Indeed he is more than just reason, just as he is more than just love, more than just justice, more than just grace. But he is the exception of all of these concepts.

You're still approaching reason as if it was something separate from him, as if it was one thing and he was the other and they can come into conflict. But what God does is fully right and just and reasonable. How could it be otherwise?

And John 1:1 says he IS the logos, the logos is co-existent with him, not just a creation per se but actually a creative force... Specifically, Jesus is the Logos made flesh.



? Given God is reason and reasonable it follows that you can reason with him? How does this do anything but support my stance?


I think here is where we differ. You assume we are reasonable, and when God does his amazing things beyond our comprehension he is being unreasonable. I assume we are unreasonable, and when God does his amazing things we can't understand fully He is the reasonable one.

I agree... But I think that is because somewhere during the course of our conversation we replaced Reason with Rationality.

God is a very reasonable God. He gave us Jesus who is the way the Truth and the Life. A very reasonable thing for Him to do. Love is a reasonable thing. However, somehow something was lost and now it almost sounds like I'm saying God is unreasonable. Which is very strange. My bad.

After all one can be Logical yet irrational, that doesn't make God a contradiction. It just means that there are limits to the terms which we can use to Describe the Nature of God. God who has created suspensions of the Natural Law, ie Miracles, Grace, Forgiveness, did so out of Love, and not Logic.

The puppy dog infatuation stage is probably going to happen no matter how you get together, and isn't lasting enough to be important.

Eros is also quite natural, and should arise between two healthy individuals of its own accord. While its an important part of marriage, there is no need to have it in advance.

What is the Greek word for Puppy dog infatuation?

So, the very foundation of a Marriage does not need to be there before people get married. Two God loving people can arbitrarily come together and figure it out because they will eventually learn to love each other.

*Le sigh.*

 

[LightningClap0002]

Liamson, I agree. If love is important in the relationship between Christ (the Bridegroom) and His Bride, after which godly marriages are to be modeled, how could it possibly not be important in marriages between godly husbands/wives as well?I can't speak with certainty, but I don't think it's love that she's disagreeing with. It's certain feelings that accompany many people's sense of love.

We read about the laws of the Old Testament and the marriages of the Old Testament. We read in Matthew 19:8 what ALSO came from that in the words of Jesus:

"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

What else was not to be so from the beginning? How quickly do hearts harden when love is not present and beauty/youth begin to fade?

Give me Jesus/grace/mercy/love over the harshness of the law any day. If Jesus doesn't want less than our love, I don't want to settle for less than love with my spouse here on earth either. He could have created all of us to be mindless, heartless drones programmed to worship Him 24/7, but He didn't. He gave us choices. He gave us love. But what if this is a non-sequitur or false dichotomy? Why can't we worship Him out of necessity 24/7 and NOT be programmed? I've read through this thread and don't get a legalistic approach to marriage. In fact, her original proposition discredited courting based on it's extensive legalism.

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Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for herMatthew 22:37-39 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
I don't see anyone questioning the need for love. :/

If I had not loved my husband of 15 years, but thought of him only as a robotic seed source/protector/provider, who would have cared for him at the point at which he could no longer have done any of those things? I don't see anyone questioning the need for love. :/


I find myself wondering whether the real issue may be a lack of understanding of the difference between true love between a man/woman of God and romantic notions gleaned from movies/novels/worldly couples.

Or a general disagreement about the meaning of true love...

 

[Jullianna]

Or a general disagreement about the meaning of true love...

How does one who has known it ever describe it to one who has not (not meaning you necessarily )? I can't find the words. Can you? It is much like my love for Christ, but not quite.

How can those who have admittedly never known something have an informed opinion about it? Seems much like a new parent who raises a child solely on their Dr Spock reference manuals without taking into consideration the wise counsel of parents/grandparents.

 

[JGPS]

What is the source/basis for these statements?

You need a source to tell you that if you put a man and women together in a situation they're supposed to have sex they're going to want to do it?