Total Depravity vs. Freewill
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That's interesting.
I hadn't thought of it that way.
But isn't it true that he(the serpent) got her to exercise her freewill?
And in so doing she and her offspring became captive when they weren't before?
"The day you eat of it ye shall surely die."
Did not she and Adam start to age when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
At least to me, it reinforces the total hapless and helpless state of our freewill.(Apart from God)
That is to say, without the unction of the Holy Spirit, we will always reach for the fruit that looks good.
(Career, choice in mate, theology)
Because we are their offspring. This goes back to original sin and total depravity.
I hadn't thought of it that way.
But isn't it true that he(the serpent) got her to exercise her freewill?
And in so doing she and her offspring became captive when they weren't before?
"The day you eat of it ye shall surely die."
Did not she and Adam start to age when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
At least to me, it reinforces the total hapless and helpless state of our freewill.(Apart from God)
That is to say, without the unction of the Holy Spirit, we will always reach for the fruit that looks good.
(Career, choice in mate, theology)
Because we are their offspring. This goes back to original sin and total depravity.
E
I'll forgive you E.G. if you'll forgive me
, I value your posts.
(I know, conditional acceptance is no acceptance at all)
All I am saying is let's here each other out.
Then weigh the matter using scripture.
Perhaps we can learn from each other instead of descending into tribal warfare.
There is infact a right answer to this question.
I want us all to find it together.
Or at least respect each others differences while we joust back and forth.
, I value your posts.(I know, conditional acceptance is no acceptance at all)
All I am saying is let's here each other out.
Then weigh the matter using scripture.
Perhaps we can learn from each other instead of descending into tribal warfare.
There is infact a right answer to this question.
I want us all to find it together.
Or at least respect each others differences while we joust back and forth.
I still wonder if anyone has any responses to my romans 9 issues.. Would like to get these straightened out.
I mean, Adam and Eve had freewill, and exercised it rightly before.
But when they partook of the tree that promised them the kind of knowledge God had-(knowing good and evil);
they immediately recognized they were naked, and Adam experienced fear for the first time at the presence of the Lord.
Fear and self consciousness plague mankind to this day.
Is it not a sign post of the fall?
But when they partook of the tree that promised them the kind of knowledge God had-(knowing good and evil);
they immediately recognized they were naked, and Adam experienced fear for the first time at the presence of the Lord.
Fear and self consciousness plague mankind to this day.
Is it not a sign post of the fall?
E.G., as far as Romans 9 goes; I think it clearly states those who were given the promise(the jews) though they rejected it at first,
will be saved in the end.
I see no other explanation for it.
Does not this harken back to election in a way?
I see election all over Romans 9.
Tell me where I'm wrong?
Open the floodgates freewiller's!
will be saved in the end.
I see no other explanation for it.
Does not this harken back to election in a way?
I see election all over Romans 9.
Tell me where I'm wrong?
Open the floodgates freewiller's!
No it is not. My post is very clear.
You say...
I say...
Man can CHOOSE to to whether he will yield to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God or he can CHOOSE not to. Righteousness is simply doing the right thing by faith (from the heart).
You say...
I say...
We are all born naturally inclined to fall short because we are all born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Yielding to the flesh in an unlawful manner is a VERY EASY thing to do and without an understanding of the true consequences of such and action and without having a manifest inward charity (agape) it is no wonder that ALL human beings, when able to reason, freely CHOOSE to sin.
Original Sin teaches that human beings are BORN EVIL and HATING GOD and it also teaches that human beings are BORN GUILTY. That contention is error. You are not born in a "totally depraved" state which necessitates that you sin. If that is the case then sin IS NOT a choice but a disease and you cannot repent and forsake a disease. Hence the entire Gospel message must be redefined to fit Original Sin.
The fact that you have redefined my comments into you asserting that I say "not one soul is born naturally inclined to fall short" is a clear example of creating a strawman with which to deal with. Don't do it please. I cannot have a conversation with someone who does this because they are in effect "conversing with their imagination."
You say...
Which is exactly what James teaches so very clearly.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The lust in question in that verse IS NOT sin. It is TEMPTATION. Temptation IS NOT sin. Augustine heavily implied in his writings that temptation WAS sin and he used concupiscence as PROOF that men are born sinful. He completely neglected Gen 3:6 which shows the lusts of the flesh active in Eve BEFORE she sinned. This is very basic stuff.
Gen 4:7 teaches the same thing, "sin lies at the door."
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Sin is a choice not a disease. By redefining sin as a disease completely neutralises repentance. The early church DID NOT teach Original Sin. Why didn't they? Ask yourself that question. Why didn't the early church teach it?
Why didn't the Jews teach Original Sin either? The Jews taught Yetzer Tov and Tetzer Ra which is the "evil desire" and the "moral conscience." The Jews taught that sin is wrought when one suppresses their moral conscience in order to fulfill the evil desire. They did not blame the flesh for sin, that is gnosticism.
Modern Christianity is pretty well established on a Gnostic foundation. Satan has been able to deceive miillions of people and those who buy into the deception end up so blind that it is almost impossible to pull them out of the fire. That is why it is essential that we DIG DEEP and be VERY ASTUTE in the manner we hear things, which is exactly what Jesus compelled us all to do.
The unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of heaven and any gospel which twists things so as to allow a continuation of rebellion whilst teaching that one is saved is error.
You say...
No, you completely misunderstand. The flesh without God is nothing but the flesh is not without God. Every single human being as been given a measure of light through their conscience and the Spirit of God is in the world convicting it of sin, righteousness and judgement. Man is perfectly capable of forsaking their rebellion and choosing to yield to God but it only happens through repentance and faith, God IS NOT absent from the process. God is the FIRST CAUSE but men MUST RESPOND.
Sin when yielded to produces bondage because of how the body is designed. Patterns of conduct become physically cemented into the brain. Studies in addiction and habit prove this without contention.
God designed human beings to be addicted to Him. Self worship in the gratification of the lusts serves as a substitute. Thus men end up serving the creature instead of the creator and they become hopelessly addicted to it. They sell themselves into bondage, their consciences becomes seared and they fall under the dominion of the powers of darkness. People underestimate the spiritual realm completely and the danger they are in.
The way to life is only through yielding completely to God and being empowered by His Spirit through us. We cannot serve God in the flesh, the flesh must die, thus we MUST die to self and COMPLETELY YIELD to God. This is the NARROW WAY that FEW FIND and that EVEN FEWER ENTER IN.
Be very careful in minimising the teachings of Jesus due to the doctrines of men. Be very careful of that.
Most are going to be deceived and I do not want to be one of them and I hope you don't either. We are fully accountable to God for the choices we make.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
You say...
I say...
Man can CHOOSE to to whether he will yield to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God or he can CHOOSE not to. Righteousness is simply doing the right thing by faith (from the heart).
You say...
I say...
We are all born naturally inclined to fall short because we are all born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Yielding to the flesh in an unlawful manner is a VERY EASY thing to do and without an understanding of the true consequences of such and action and without having a manifest inward charity (agape) it is no wonder that ALL human beings, when able to reason, freely CHOOSE to sin.
Original Sin teaches that human beings are BORN EVIL and HATING GOD and it also teaches that human beings are BORN GUILTY. That contention is error. You are not born in a "totally depraved" state which necessitates that you sin. If that is the case then sin IS NOT a choice but a disease and you cannot repent and forsake a disease. Hence the entire Gospel message must be redefined to fit Original Sin.
The fact that you have redefined my comments into you asserting that I say "not one soul is born naturally inclined to fall short" is a clear example of creating a strawman with which to deal with. Don't do it please. I cannot have a conversation with someone who does this because they are in effect "conversing with their imagination."
You say...
Which is exactly what James teaches so very clearly.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The lust in question in that verse IS NOT sin. It is TEMPTATION. Temptation IS NOT sin. Augustine heavily implied in his writings that temptation WAS sin and he used concupiscence as PROOF that men are born sinful. He completely neglected Gen 3:6 which shows the lusts of the flesh active in Eve BEFORE she sinned. This is very basic stuff.
Gen 4:7 teaches the same thing, "sin lies at the door."
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Sin is a choice not a disease. By redefining sin as a disease completely neutralises repentance. The early church DID NOT teach Original Sin. Why didn't they? Ask yourself that question. Why didn't the early church teach it?
Why didn't the Jews teach Original Sin either? The Jews taught Yetzer Tov and Tetzer Ra which is the "evil desire" and the "moral conscience." The Jews taught that sin is wrought when one suppresses their moral conscience in order to fulfill the evil desire. They did not blame the flesh for sin, that is gnosticism.
Modern Christianity is pretty well established on a Gnostic foundation. Satan has been able to deceive miillions of people and those who buy into the deception end up so blind that it is almost impossible to pull them out of the fire. That is why it is essential that we DIG DEEP and be VERY ASTUTE in the manner we hear things, which is exactly what Jesus compelled us all to do.
The unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of heaven and any gospel which twists things so as to allow a continuation of rebellion whilst teaching that one is saved is error.
You say...
No, you completely misunderstand. The flesh without God is nothing but the flesh is not without God. Every single human being as been given a measure of light through their conscience and the Spirit of God is in the world convicting it of sin, righteousness and judgement. Man is perfectly capable of forsaking their rebellion and choosing to yield to God but it only happens through repentance and faith, God IS NOT absent from the process. God is the FIRST CAUSE but men MUST RESPOND.
Sin when yielded to produces bondage because of how the body is designed. Patterns of conduct become physically cemented into the brain. Studies in addiction and habit prove this without contention.
God designed human beings to be addicted to Him. Self worship in the gratification of the lusts serves as a substitute. Thus men end up serving the creature instead of the creator and they become hopelessly addicted to it. They sell themselves into bondage, their consciences becomes seared and they fall under the dominion of the powers of darkness. People underestimate the spiritual realm completely and the danger they are in.
The way to life is only through yielding completely to God and being empowered by His Spirit through us. We cannot serve God in the flesh, the flesh must die, thus we MUST die to self and COMPLETELY YIELD to God. This is the NARROW WAY that FEW FIND and that EVEN FEWER ENTER IN.
Be very careful in minimising the teachings of Jesus due to the doctrines of men. Be very careful of that.
Most are going to be deceived and I do not want to be one of them and I hope you don't either. We are fully accountable to God for the choices we make.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Last edited:
I know I said not to parse posts but since I don't feel like rewriting this essay I will have to answer it in parts.
I'm in Red.
Man can CHOOSE to do whether he will yield to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God or he can CHOOSE not to. Righteousness is simply doing the right thing by faith (from the heart). Agreed.
We are all born naturally inclined to fall short because we are all born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Yielding to the flesh in an unlawful manner is a VERY EASY thing to do and without an understanding of the true consequences of such and action and without having a manifest inward charity (agape) it is no wonder that ALL human beings, when able to reason, freely CHOOSE to sin.
Original Sin teaches that human beings are BORN EVIL and HATING GOD and it also teaches that human beings are BORN GUILTY.This contention is false. Total depravity means no such thing. It simply means that the human condition is apart from God, and no effort can be made in one's own power to rectify the situation. That contention is error. You are not born in a "totally depraved" state which necessitates that you sin. If that is the case then sin IS NOT a choice but a disease and you cannot repent and forsake a disease. Hence the entire Gospel message must be redefined to fit Original Sin.Here is a mistake in logic.
By comparing the separated condition of mankind with a choice to be attained he negates the work of Christ.
The fact that you have redefined my comments into you asserting that I say "not one soul is born naturally inclined to fall short" is a clear example of creating a strawman with which to deal with. Don't do it please. I cannot have a conversation with someone who does this because they are in effect "conversing with their imagination." You said it before in those words, and you have just reiterated it.
You say...
Which is exactly what James teaches so very clearly.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The lust in question in that verse IS NOT sin. It is TEMPTATION. Temptation IS NOT sin. Augustine heavily implied in his writings that temptation WAS sin and he used concupiscence as PROOF that men are born sinful. He completely neglected Gen 3:6 which shows the lusts of the flesh active in Eve BEFORE she sinned. This is very basic stuff.Seeing something is good to eat is lust? Are you serious? When a person sums up a purchase, whether it is worth the price or not are they lusting? Is evaluation lust? You are in error. The sin did not happen until she partook of the fruit. There was no sin of lust before hand. She was talked into it, fooled, bamboozled, the Bible clearly states that. She was tempted and believed the lie.
It's as if she was talked into buying a car that is a lemon. The sin nature : lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life are results of sin, not temptations before it. Here you are in serious error. You refute yourself because you say to be tempted is not a sin, yet you accuse Eve of lust of the eyes before she partook of the tree. You are in serious error.
Gen 4:7 teaches the same thing, "sin lies at the door."
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Sin is a choice not a disease. By redefining sin as a disease completely neutralises repentance. The early church DID NOT teach Original Sin. Why didn't they? Ask yourself that question. Why didn't the early church teach it?What are you saying? Is Paul early enough for you? Romans 7:23 " But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Why didn't the Jews teach Original Sin either? The Jews taught Yetzer Tov and Tetzer Ra which is the "evil desire" and the "moral conscience." The Jews taught that sin is wrought when one suppresses their moral conscience in order to fulfill the evil desire. They did not blame the flesh for sin, that is gnosticism.What incongruous double speak! Honestly, you should step back and analyze what you are saying.No christian blames the flesh or the world or the devil for their sin!
Modern Christianity is pretty well established on a Gnostic foundation. Satan has been able to deceive miillions of people and those who buy into the deception end up so blind that it is almost impossible to pull them out of the fire. That is why it is essential that we DIG DEEP and be VERY ASTUTE in the manner we hear things, which is exactly what Jesus compelled us all to do.You don't even know what the term means, gnostism means 'hidden knowledge', it was a sect that claimed certain privaledged few knew hidden secrets about Jesus and the way to salvation. Man, you are so in error.
The unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of heaven and any gospel which twists things so as to allow a continuation of rebellion whilst teaching that one is saved is error.
You say...
No, you completely misunderstand. The flesh without God is nothing but the flesh is not without God. Every single human being as been given a measure of light through their conscience and the Spirit of God is in the world convicting it of sin, righteousness and judgement. Man is perfectly capable of forsaking their rebellion and choosing to yield to God but it only happens through repentance and faith, God IS NOT absent from the process. God is the FIRST CAUSE but men MUST RESPOND.Here again, you trip over yourself logically, you say God is the first cause but you exclude the very faith that He caused as being under His egis. Let me refresh your memory :"For by grace are you saved through faith,and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Sin when yielded to produces bondage because of how the body is designed. Patterns of conduct become physically cemented into the brain. Studies in addiction and habit prove this without contention.
God designed human beings to be addicted to Him. Self worship in the gratification of the lusts serves as a substitute. Thus men end up serving the creature instead of the creator and they become hopelessly addicted to it. They sell themselves into bondage, their consciences becomes seared and they fall under the dominion of the powers of darkness. People underestimate the spiritual realm completely and the danger they are in.Completely agree.
The way to life is only through yielding completely to God and being empowered by His Spirit through us. We cannot serve God in the flesh, the flesh must die, thus we MUST die to self and COMPLETELY YIELD to God. This is the NARROW WAY that FEW FIND and that EVEN FEWER ENTER IN.Do you not see that is a work of God? - "That faith not of yourselves"
Be very careful in minimising the teachings of Jesus due to the doctrines of men. Be very careful of that.
I will, You be careful to.
Most are going to be deceived and I do not want to be one of them and I hope you don't either. We are fully accountable to God for the choices we make.Amen.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.[/quote]
I'm in Red.
Man can CHOOSE to do whether he will yield to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God or he can CHOOSE not to. Righteousness is simply doing the right thing by faith (from the heart). Agreed.
We are all born naturally inclined to fall short because we are all born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Yielding to the flesh in an unlawful manner is a VERY EASY thing to do and without an understanding of the true consequences of such and action and without having a manifest inward charity (agape) it is no wonder that ALL human beings, when able to reason, freely CHOOSE to sin.
Original Sin teaches that human beings are BORN EVIL and HATING GOD and it also teaches that human beings are BORN GUILTY.This contention is false. Total depravity means no such thing. It simply means that the human condition is apart from God, and no effort can be made in one's own power to rectify the situation. That contention is error. You are not born in a "totally depraved" state which necessitates that you sin. If that is the case then sin IS NOT a choice but a disease and you cannot repent and forsake a disease. Hence the entire Gospel message must be redefined to fit Original Sin.Here is a mistake in logic.
By comparing the separated condition of mankind with a choice to be attained he negates the work of Christ.
The fact that you have redefined my comments into you asserting that I say "not one soul is born naturally inclined to fall short" is a clear example of creating a strawman with which to deal with. Don't do it please. I cannot have a conversation with someone who does this because they are in effect "conversing with their imagination." You said it before in those words, and you have just reiterated it.
You say...
Which is exactly what James teaches so very clearly.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The lust in question in that verse IS NOT sin. It is TEMPTATION. Temptation IS NOT sin. Augustine heavily implied in his writings that temptation WAS sin and he used concupiscence as PROOF that men are born sinful. He completely neglected Gen 3:6 which shows the lusts of the flesh active in Eve BEFORE she sinned. This is very basic stuff.Seeing something is good to eat is lust? Are you serious? When a person sums up a purchase, whether it is worth the price or not are they lusting? Is evaluation lust? You are in error. The sin did not happen until she partook of the fruit. There was no sin of lust before hand. She was talked into it, fooled, bamboozled, the Bible clearly states that. She was tempted and believed the lie.
It's as if she was talked into buying a car that is a lemon. The sin nature : lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life are results of sin, not temptations before it. Here you are in serious error. You refute yourself because you say to be tempted is not a sin, yet you accuse Eve of lust of the eyes before she partook of the tree. You are in serious error.
Gen 4:7 teaches the same thing, "sin lies at the door."
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Sin is a choice not a disease. By redefining sin as a disease completely neutralises repentance. The early church DID NOT teach Original Sin. Why didn't they? Ask yourself that question. Why didn't the early church teach it?What are you saying? Is Paul early enough for you? Romans 7:23 " But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Why didn't the Jews teach Original Sin either? The Jews taught Yetzer Tov and Tetzer Ra which is the "evil desire" and the "moral conscience." The Jews taught that sin is wrought when one suppresses their moral conscience in order to fulfill the evil desire. They did not blame the flesh for sin, that is gnosticism.What incongruous double speak! Honestly, you should step back and analyze what you are saying.No christian blames the flesh or the world or the devil for their sin!
Modern Christianity is pretty well established on a Gnostic foundation. Satan has been able to deceive miillions of people and those who buy into the deception end up so blind that it is almost impossible to pull them out of the fire. That is why it is essential that we DIG DEEP and be VERY ASTUTE in the manner we hear things, which is exactly what Jesus compelled us all to do.You don't even know what the term means, gnostism means 'hidden knowledge', it was a sect that claimed certain privaledged few knew hidden secrets about Jesus and the way to salvation. Man, you are so in error.
The unrighteous will not enter the kingdom of heaven and any gospel which twists things so as to allow a continuation of rebellion whilst teaching that one is saved is error.
You say...
No, you completely misunderstand. The flesh without God is nothing but the flesh is not without God. Every single human being as been given a measure of light through their conscience and the Spirit of God is in the world convicting it of sin, righteousness and judgement. Man is perfectly capable of forsaking their rebellion and choosing to yield to God but it only happens through repentance and faith, God IS NOT absent from the process. God is the FIRST CAUSE but men MUST RESPOND.Here again, you trip over yourself logically, you say God is the first cause but you exclude the very faith that He caused as being under His egis. Let me refresh your memory :"For by grace are you saved through faith,and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Sin when yielded to produces bondage because of how the body is designed. Patterns of conduct become physically cemented into the brain. Studies in addiction and habit prove this without contention.
God designed human beings to be addicted to Him. Self worship in the gratification of the lusts serves as a substitute. Thus men end up serving the creature instead of the creator and they become hopelessly addicted to it. They sell themselves into bondage, their consciences becomes seared and they fall under the dominion of the powers of darkness. People underestimate the spiritual realm completely and the danger they are in.Completely agree.
The way to life is only through yielding completely to God and being empowered by His Spirit through us. We cannot serve God in the flesh, the flesh must die, thus we MUST die to self and COMPLETELY YIELD to God. This is the NARROW WAY that FEW FIND and that EVEN FEWER ENTER IN.Do you not see that is a work of God? - "That faith not of yourselves"
Be very careful in minimising the teachings of Jesus due to the doctrines of men. Be very careful of that.
I will, You be careful to.
Most are going to be deceived and I do not want to be one of them and I hope you don't either. We are fully accountable to God for the choices we make.Amen.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.[/quote]
E
Again as I said, according to predestination, and the fatalistic view of total depravity belief. The children in romans 9 spoke of two kids, one being saved before they were born, and one being condemned to hell before they were born. This is the part I was speaking of.
do you still think this to be the case? or have I not shown that this is not the case?
My take on it is this:
God desired a soul mate. (mankind)
The only fulfilling soul mate would be one that chooses Him for who He is.
Knowing beforehand, that if He creates mankind, He must give us free will, and let us be sure that we have it, otherwise, we would forever be unknowingly in the dark, unwitting robots, not fulfilling to Him or us.
Knowing that if He gives us said freewill, we would eventually fall, He sets in place a plan that includes Salvation, which also allows us to see His true nature and decide with our freewill, that such a creator is worthy of choosing.
That is, one that did not hold back on us in our awareness, and righteously allows us a chance to be exposed to negativity in order to recognize it for what it is and reject it.
In order to maintain His reputation however, He did not cause us to fall, and in all fairness, He gave us the best warning that He could have, without us already understanding the feeling of being a transgressor or victim.
Said another way, He knew we'd fall, and that it is necessary for us to become aware, overcome, and understand the deepest things we need to know in order to really choose Him.
It's the only way I can resolve it without accusing Him of doing the smallest "underhanded" thing, and puts Him walking right on the line, but not committing true evil, therefore without blame. Just fair and giving.
I believe the effect of "pre-destination" is simply caused by the fact that He knew beforehand that certain "instances" of mankind would "just turn out" in a fashion that He prefers. Yeshua being the pinnacle, and "chosen" people being on the next tier down. Not because of anything they did in their conception, not because of anything their parents did in their conception, just because they happened to be the first fruits of the harvest. Something that everyone just has to deal with, and something I believe they will deal with in absolute humility, never gloating that they are "chosen" because of any of their own efforts.
Just the way it had to happen. There had to be "one" that was so perfect it is "begotten" of Him, His 100% reflection, and some others that were close.
I believe anyone not in this "elect" group are likewise compensated in other ways that the "elect" may not be and just have to deal with, and will deal with humbly with total understanding. This I believe is the true reward, to see others made high.
I believe those who mistakenly cry "foul" will have the opportunity to see that being created against their will was well worth it.
It will be "made up to them", if it even were an issue.
"The meek shall inherit the earth."
That to me, would be the kids starving in a trash dump in Africa, wondering why in the world they were even made, not a pope, a president, myself, etc.
As to what the sin was in the first place, my guess based on the punishment fitting the crime, is that Eve perceived Adam's physical strength as her inferiority, and devised to withhold sex from him in order to execute some degree of control. I believe he reacted by forcing himself upon her, not fully recognizing that "this time was different" in that she was refusing.
I believe effort was involved in Eve's refusal, I believe she had to overcome her own sexual urges in order to say "no", and that in a pre-curse state, the female is the sexual instigator and the male must regulate between procreation time and garden-tending time. I belive Adam's ability to say "not right now", to regulate his urges somewhat, is part of his dominance that she didn't understand and envied.
I won't get into all of the reasoning right now, because it would be a wall of text. But it makes perfect sense to me. A simple flip of the switch in the female from pleasure to discomfort or pain, and circumcision of the male as an equalizer that brings the wife to the husband once again to ensure a fruitful people.
Peace.
God desired a soul mate. (mankind)
The only fulfilling soul mate would be one that chooses Him for who He is.
Knowing beforehand, that if He creates mankind, He must give us free will, and let us be sure that we have it, otherwise, we would forever be unknowingly in the dark, unwitting robots, not fulfilling to Him or us.
Knowing that if He gives us said freewill, we would eventually fall, He sets in place a plan that includes Salvation, which also allows us to see His true nature and decide with our freewill, that such a creator is worthy of choosing.
That is, one that did not hold back on us in our awareness, and righteously allows us a chance to be exposed to negativity in order to recognize it for what it is and reject it.
In order to maintain His reputation however, He did not cause us to fall, and in all fairness, He gave us the best warning that He could have, without us already understanding the feeling of being a transgressor or victim.
Said another way, He knew we'd fall, and that it is necessary for us to become aware, overcome, and understand the deepest things we need to know in order to really choose Him.
It's the only way I can resolve it without accusing Him of doing the smallest "underhanded" thing, and puts Him walking right on the line, but not committing true evil, therefore without blame. Just fair and giving.
I believe the effect of "pre-destination" is simply caused by the fact that He knew beforehand that certain "instances" of mankind would "just turn out" in a fashion that He prefers. Yeshua being the pinnacle, and "chosen" people being on the next tier down. Not because of anything they did in their conception, not because of anything their parents did in their conception, just because they happened to be the first fruits of the harvest. Something that everyone just has to deal with, and something I believe they will deal with in absolute humility, never gloating that they are "chosen" because of any of their own efforts.
Just the way it had to happen. There had to be "one" that was so perfect it is "begotten" of Him, His 100% reflection, and some others that were close.
I believe anyone not in this "elect" group are likewise compensated in other ways that the "elect" may not be and just have to deal with, and will deal with humbly with total understanding. This I believe is the true reward, to see others made high.
I believe those who mistakenly cry "foul" will have the opportunity to see that being created against their will was well worth it.
It will be "made up to them", if it even were an issue.
"The meek shall inherit the earth."
That to me, would be the kids starving in a trash dump in Africa, wondering why in the world they were even made, not a pope, a president, myself, etc.
As to what the sin was in the first place, my guess based on the punishment fitting the crime, is that Eve perceived Adam's physical strength as her inferiority, and devised to withhold sex from him in order to execute some degree of control. I believe he reacted by forcing himself upon her, not fully recognizing that "this time was different" in that she was refusing.
I believe effort was involved in Eve's refusal, I believe she had to overcome her own sexual urges in order to say "no", and that in a pre-curse state, the female is the sexual instigator and the male must regulate between procreation time and garden-tending time. I belive Adam's ability to say "not right now", to regulate his urges somewhat, is part of his dominance that she didn't understand and envied.
I won't get into all of the reasoning right now, because it would be a wall of text. But it makes perfect sense to me. A simple flip of the switch in the female from pleasure to discomfort or pain, and circumcision of the male as an equalizer that brings the wife to the husband once again to ensure a fruitful people.
Peace.
P
I'm off to pray for some folks and bake some bread (cinnamon swirl for the kiddos and apple cinnamon raisin for Mark)
but I hope to be back in a while.
Can't wait to see what happens!
love to you all-
ellie
but I hope to be back in a while.
Can't wait to see what happens!
love to you all-
ellie
Oh, wait, you mean another Mark!
Well rather than go over all of this, can you tell me. When does a person cease sin as a Christian? Immediately after conversion? Or do they come to a point they are perfect in the flesh at a later date?
Of course, for a person to cease sinning(according to the biblical definition of sin) they must of course 24/7 without ceasing love God with all their heart, body, soul and mind, and always, at all times perfectly love all of those they come into contact with without a slip, and that would include those who insult them, malign them are rude to them etc. So I guess that is what you are claiming for yourself.
Now I agree that by not living under law, the law is upheld, but not perfectly, if that were what Paul meant he would not have said, he was not already all that he should be. The law is far better upheld by not living under it, but not perfectly. Here is an example
For by one sacrifice he has made FOREVER PERFECT, those who are BEING MADE HOLY
Heb10:14
If you are BEING MADE HOLY you are not perfect in the flesh/you sin, though when you sin, you azre convicted of this, for the Spirit has written the good and Holy laws of God on your heart and mind, and your conscience testifies to your erring in the flesh, it is the safety valve you could say of Grace,
BTW
I grew up with your type of preaching. So it is not new to me at all. You may feel it reveals much about me-I agree, I hope it does. I would never want to crush people with impossible demands that I myself failed to perfectly keep.
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O
Definitely free will.
If we never had the choice because of original sin to come to God, we would all die. Just looking at the way the earth spiritually functions - there are only two sides at work, good and evil. Those are your only choices, no in between. Both these forces coexists, and due to this coexistence, we automatically are given the freedom to choose what we truly desire spiritually.
God set the standard for both sides; if you choose God, you must abide by God and follow what is instructed of you.
If you choose against God, then you abide by the regulations of the world which is basically sin, self - satisfaction, and under the rule of the prince of this world which is Satan. What Satan does is ultimately lead those to rebel against God and justify this rebellion, so that one does not even think what they are doing is spiritually disastrous. This is why you will encounter non - believers, atheist, and even "Christians" who are working against God but aren't even aware because their sin appeals to their hearts more than the love of God.
Original Sin did not befall on all of mankind just because of Adam and Even in Eden; that parable represents all of mankind, and Eden represents heaven. All dwelled in heaven before the earth, and all came to sin by following the temptation of Satan who was the most corrupted angel of us all. Satan wanted a kingdom like God, even the throne of God itself - so he rebelled and coaxed many others to follow our sinful natures as well.
I want to point out here, that good and evil has always coexisted in us; also a clear sign that God gave us free will from the beginning. God knew of Satan's evil intentions, and he knew that the children would turn to sin eventually. The fact that God created us with two natures from the get go, means we had the option to choose.
Us, the sinners, who choose to follow our sinful natures, followed Satan to death. The Earth is not some we we little fun existence; you think God enjoys watching his children be beaten, murdered, raped and humiliated? Earth was and still is a death sentence.
Romans 6:23 testifies that the " wages of sin is death;" thus if we are the sinners, our destination originally for what we did prior to the earth, was to die.
Face the 2nd death as the bible calls it in Revelations.
The 2nd death is that of the soul; absolute destruction.
So then one must wonder why Satan tempted us and enticed us to fall to death? Satan just really hates God; he's extremely envious, wicked, and arrogant. He was angered that God condemned him for what he did, and thus attacked God's people to get at God.
What's the best way to hurt someone's parents? Kill their children.
That's why you see verses about " and he waged war with her offspring," or the one in Revs about the dragon waiting for the pregnant woman to give birth so he can gobble up her children.
The more of us who turn against God and die, the more pain will be brought to God. This is why God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, because in the sinless crucifixion, God took our place in death, and this revealed the devil's betrayal - which got him hurled down to the earth.
The best way to express this complex concept - is that there are two types of sinners; those who sin intentionally and those who sin unintentionally. God is seeking to save the unintentional sinners, the one's who were lead astray by Satan but seek repentance and forgiveness from Father. The intentional sinners were those whom actively betrayed God and still betray God here on this earth.
I must clarify though, that there was a time when the intentional sinners didn't think rebelliously of God, but they begin to become corrupted to a point of no return it seems.
There's a passage in the bible ( sorry guys I don't have my notes to quote it,) in which God speaks about being the " potter " who creates some pots for common use and noble use.
The gist was that we all had to really realize and learn the love of God and see the darkness that is in us, and come to full repentance to become complete spiritual beings. Satan was the original example of this darkness, and then those whom followed him became examples for the righteous to avoid following.
Someone asked me if people are just born evil; no, because even evil people are capable of doing good things. However, even demons know of God's existence - so no man is without excuse or able to say " God you created me evil so it isn't fair I be punished for my sin." Unless you are mentally ill, everyone is aware of what they are doing. As for the intentional sinners from some experience,
They are haughty, arrogant, and declare from God as if they are above him. They have rebellious minds, rebellious hearts and live to appease their sinful nature. Now this doesn't necessarily mean atheist or non - believers; there are plenty of arrogant Christians who only believe in God because they want the perks of Heaven. This is very bad because when one falls deep enough, you become both spiritually deaf, blind, and come to receive the mark of the beast.
This is why the bible says, " If you are a friend of the world, you are an enemy of God." The world is Satan's kingdom, and if you abide by his regulations ( sin) and allow him to take authority over you, you are thus marked as his.
Luckily though, if you come to your senses, you can come to receive the seal of God and be cleansed from the beast's mark. This has conditions though, and the bible fiercely talks about those who get the seal of God but then refute back to their sinful ways and receive the beast's mark on their right hand.
So if your really struggling with God right now, the world and your Christianity, please please please pray and endure because often when you leave, it's terribly difficult to go back. Don't ever stop searching for God if you have questions or are confused - Matthew 7:7 " seek and you will find..." best verse ever lol.
Anyway, I've totally went off topic I just get so excited explaining all this.
~
The point here is that we have free will. And we have it because when one makes a choice free of anything else but what they feel in their heart and soul, they will pursue that choice and live by it out of sheer desire and well...love.
If we never had the choice because of original sin to come to God, we would all die. Just looking at the way the earth spiritually functions - there are only two sides at work, good and evil. Those are your only choices, no in between. Both these forces coexists, and due to this coexistence, we automatically are given the freedom to choose what we truly desire spiritually.
God set the standard for both sides; if you choose God, you must abide by God and follow what is instructed of you.
If you choose against God, then you abide by the regulations of the world which is basically sin, self - satisfaction, and under the rule of the prince of this world which is Satan. What Satan does is ultimately lead those to rebel against God and justify this rebellion, so that one does not even think what they are doing is spiritually disastrous. This is why you will encounter non - believers, atheist, and even "Christians" who are working against God but aren't even aware because their sin appeals to their hearts more than the love of God.
Original Sin did not befall on all of mankind just because of Adam and Even in Eden; that parable represents all of mankind, and Eden represents heaven. All dwelled in heaven before the earth, and all came to sin by following the temptation of Satan who was the most corrupted angel of us all. Satan wanted a kingdom like God, even the throne of God itself - so he rebelled and coaxed many others to follow our sinful natures as well.
I want to point out here, that good and evil has always coexisted in us; also a clear sign that God gave us free will from the beginning. God knew of Satan's evil intentions, and he knew that the children would turn to sin eventually. The fact that God created us with two natures from the get go, means we had the option to choose.
Us, the sinners, who choose to follow our sinful natures, followed Satan to death. The Earth is not some we we little fun existence; you think God enjoys watching his children be beaten, murdered, raped and humiliated? Earth was and still is a death sentence.
Romans 6:23 testifies that the " wages of sin is death;" thus if we are the sinners, our destination originally for what we did prior to the earth, was to die.
Face the 2nd death as the bible calls it in Revelations.
The 2nd death is that of the soul; absolute destruction.
So then one must wonder why Satan tempted us and enticed us to fall to death? Satan just really hates God; he's extremely envious, wicked, and arrogant. He was angered that God condemned him for what he did, and thus attacked God's people to get at God.
What's the best way to hurt someone's parents? Kill their children.
That's why you see verses about " and he waged war with her offspring," or the one in Revs about the dragon waiting for the pregnant woman to give birth so he can gobble up her children.
The more of us who turn against God and die, the more pain will be brought to God. This is why God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ, because in the sinless crucifixion, God took our place in death, and this revealed the devil's betrayal - which got him hurled down to the earth.
The best way to express this complex concept - is that there are two types of sinners; those who sin intentionally and those who sin unintentionally. God is seeking to save the unintentional sinners, the one's who were lead astray by Satan but seek repentance and forgiveness from Father. The intentional sinners were those whom actively betrayed God and still betray God here on this earth.
I must clarify though, that there was a time when the intentional sinners didn't think rebelliously of God, but they begin to become corrupted to a point of no return it seems.
There's a passage in the bible ( sorry guys I don't have my notes to quote it,) in which God speaks about being the " potter " who creates some pots for common use and noble use.
The gist was that we all had to really realize and learn the love of God and see the darkness that is in us, and come to full repentance to become complete spiritual beings. Satan was the original example of this darkness, and then those whom followed him became examples for the righteous to avoid following.
Someone asked me if people are just born evil; no, because even evil people are capable of doing good things. However, even demons know of God's existence - so no man is without excuse or able to say " God you created me evil so it isn't fair I be punished for my sin." Unless you are mentally ill, everyone is aware of what they are doing. As for the intentional sinners from some experience,
They are haughty, arrogant, and declare from God as if they are above him. They have rebellious minds, rebellious hearts and live to appease their sinful nature. Now this doesn't necessarily mean atheist or non - believers; there are plenty of arrogant Christians who only believe in God because they want the perks of Heaven. This is very bad because when one falls deep enough, you become both spiritually deaf, blind, and come to receive the mark of the beast.
This is why the bible says, " If you are a friend of the world, you are an enemy of God." The world is Satan's kingdom, and if you abide by his regulations ( sin) and allow him to take authority over you, you are thus marked as his.
Luckily though, if you come to your senses, you can come to receive the seal of God and be cleansed from the beast's mark. This has conditions though, and the bible fiercely talks about those who get the seal of God but then refute back to their sinful ways and receive the beast's mark on their right hand.
So if your really struggling with God right now, the world and your Christianity, please please please pray and endure because often when you leave, it's terribly difficult to go back. Don't ever stop searching for God if you have questions or are confused - Matthew 7:7 " seek and you will find..." best verse ever lol.
Anyway, I've totally went off topic
I just get so excited explaining all this. ~
The point here is that we have free will. And we have it because when one makes a choice free of anything else but what they feel in their heart and soul, they will pursue that choice and live by it out of sheer desire and well...love.
Just to add, there was a group of people who lived a long time ago. They would not have got drunk, smoked I am sure if smoking had of then been invented. They wouldn't have had extra marital affairs, or used bad language. They knew the literal words of the then scriptures inside out. They were very intelligent people and wore the finest of clothes. They attented all of the religious meetings, and would have invited like minded people into their homes for a meal. They did good deeds(albeit publically), and tithed down to their last mint dill and cumin. And they put flowers on the graves of the prophets murdered by their forefathers and said
'We would never have acted like they did'
But they crushed people with impossible demands, demands they themselves did not try and keep. And Christ asked them
Why are you trying to kill me? Not one of you, keeps the law'
John7:19
And yet these people were insistant the literal law was fully obeyed
But for all their insistance the law was kept, and the 'righteous' way they lived, Christ said, these people did not even know his Father, for they did not understand the higher points of the law.
Now before you accuse me of antnoanism, is that right?
When a Christian errs, as they all do at times , they are convicted of their sin, it can be no other way, for the Spirit has written the good laws of God on their hearts and minds. They fel acutely all of their shortcomings, and their shortcomings bring much sorrow. They do not then need others to come along and tell them if they are not virtually perfect God will cast them out. That is the reality.
'We would never have acted like they did'
But they crushed people with impossible demands, demands they themselves did not try and keep. And Christ asked them
Why are you trying to kill me? Not one of you, keeps the law'
John7:19
And yet these people were insistant the literal law was fully obeyed
But for all their insistance the law was kept, and the 'righteous' way they lived, Christ said, these people did not even know his Father, for they did not understand the higher points of the law.
Now before you accuse me of antnoanism, is that right?
When a Christian errs, as they all do at times , they are convicted of their sin, it can be no other way, for the Spirit has written the good laws of God on their hearts and minds. They fel acutely all of their shortcomings, and their shortcomings bring much sorrow. They do not then need others to come along and tell them if they are not virtually perfect God will cast them out. That is the reality.
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