Skinski
The problem is not so much with a lot of your pure doctrine according to scripture, it is the ideal, but it does not allow for the humanity of man, or for the working out practically of Grace in the Christians life.
I bet to you, as soon as a person becomes a Christian they can immediately cease all sin. I am afraid you can only see the literal letter, and not all of that:
There has to be a death for rebirth to take place. The death is not some abstract concept of the mind, it is an actual event which takes place.
The OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
The freedom from sin is contingent on that happening. The old man cannot be reformed, the old man must die once and for all.
Jesus taught that new wine cannot be placed in old wine skins. It is the same with a sinner coming to salvation. A grain of wheat MUST DIE otherwise it abides alone, it is only when it dies that it can bear much fruit.
James stated this...
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
You are saying the opposite. You are saying that you don't have to lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. If a thief does not have to lay aside their theft in order to receive the implanted word then James is a LIAR.
Can't you see how you are making an allowance for ongoing rebellion? You ignore vast amounts of scripture and will pull select verses out of context to make this allowance. That is dangerous because you are convincing yourself that you can be a hearer and not a doer.
If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal 2:16&17
Paul is not saying there by any stretch of the imagination a person puts the flesh to death and lives a sinless life upon conversion. I am afraid if that is what you believe you cannot see beyond some of the literal letter.
You are trying to twist the death of the old man into some sort of "partial" suppression.
Jesus said YOU MUST LOSE YOUR LIFE FOR HIS SAKE.
Jesus said A GRAIN OF WHEAT MUST DIE.
Paul said OUR OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED.
Paul said that THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST's HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES.
How much clearer could it be?
I am not talking about never making a mistake (if that is what you mean by sinless), i am simply stating that the REBELLION CEASES.
A person becomes a Christian, much sin they can immediately cease, but what of the sin that wraps itself so tightly around them? Deeply ingrained sin they have been afflicted by for many years? Do you preach that all of this immediately vanishes?
The whole purpose of "dying with Christ" is to set one free from this "deeply ingrained sin." A serial killer or a child molester does not give up their sin by degrees, molest a few less children this year or kill a few less people next year. Yes an extreme example but that is the logical conclusion of what you are saying isn't it?
Peter wrote this...
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
CEASED FROM SIN. Why? Because HE NO LONGER SHOULD LIVE THE REST OF HIS TIME IN THE FLESH TO THE LUSTS OF MEN.
One has either been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust or they have not. One is either locked in a jail cell or they are not.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Having ESCAPED what? How many scriptures do you have to ignore or explain away?
So to Paul, once someone starts out on their Christian walk it is plain they are a sinner. Why does he ask. 'Does Christ promote sin?
Here is what Paul actually states...
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Grace abounds when sin abounds but that does not mean if you are yielding to sin that grace COVERS you. No, it simply means that God is longsuffering and patient and wants you to repent.
Paul also said this...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yet you are saying that a new Christian is still a sinner in the sense of yielding to the flesh and disobeying God? Where is that in the Bible? It isn't!
Because to Paul you are saved by grace through faith, and you are saved despite your imperfections, and what may well be glaring sin that needs to urgently be dealt with as you begin your Christian walk. Now if you saw someone rejoicing in their Christianity, despite glaring sin in their life, what will you think(if you are honest)
That person is promoting Sin. They are rejoicing in their salvation while blatantly committing what to you is unacceptable sin. But the new convert is weak:
While we were yet without strength Christ sdied for the ungodly
Rom5:6
Look at what you are doing. You are trying to defend the continuation of rebellion. I can show you lots of scripture which says the opposite of what you are saying and yet you cannot show me scripture which proves your assertion.
Yes Christ died for the ungodly. Yet that does not mean He dies so we can continue in rebellion. God forbid, that is turning grace into a license to sin.
You cannot take snippets of scripture and try to read a theology into it. You have to accept the Bible for what it plainly states building precept upon precept. If you do not do that then you are constructing an IMAGE of God in your mind and you are BOWING DOWN TO THE IMAGE. Don't do that!
But you would expect the new convert to immediately cease all sin wouldn't you? Be honest!
Paul proves the point in the next verse
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
In other words, if the new convert believes the sin has to be dealt with in order for them to be a Christian(has to be according to law) they will fail and simply prove they are a lawbreaker
That is the spiritual reality.
Good grief. Stop it! You are deceiving yourself. Read the whole passage...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Paul is talking about going back to the law to establish one's righteousness. He is not speaking about what you are asserting. READ THE TEXT.
It is error to seek to be justified by the law, that was what the Galatians were being lured into. Paul was teaching that we are justified through abiding in Jesus Christ (Gal 2:20-21) and not the outward deeds of the law. If one is abiding in Christ and then is to turn back to the law then grace is received in vain. This is why Paul is so detailed about walking according to the Spirit by a faith that works by love in chapter 5. Read the whole letter and don't take little snippets and try and fit them in with what you believe.
And if a person does take the view that the sin has to be dealt with for them to be acceptable to God be a Christian, they are under law, for the law can condemn them How erroneous. Sin must be dealt with. Jesus preached REPENTANCE. Paul taught this...
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Read that passage above again. Your telling me that "having to deal with sin" is returning to the law? Not even close!
The law was a set of rules and regulations which could only clean the outside of the cup. Do not murder! Ok, I won't murder, am I righteous? NO! Not if you hate your brother. The law only regulates the OUTER MAN.
Righteousness is of the HEART. We yield to God by faith and thus the righteousness of God is manifest through us for God purifies our heart. Thus we DON'T MURDER because it is the OPPOSITE OF OUR NATURE. Love fulfills the law. If one tries to be justified by rules and regulations then it is vanity because it simply does not address the heart.
Read the Scriptures with that in mind. Outer Works absent of a PURE HEART are VANITY. The Pharisees has the OUTWARD WORKS but they were DEFILED WITHIN. Thus their OUTWARD WORKS were worthless.
Christianity is about heart purity. Not being cloaked in your filthiness. No way, don't be deceived for the UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.
Spurgeon wrote that he had seen prostitutes change, their hearts become pure as the driven snow, alcoholics too. But he did not preach instant perrfection, but victory through faith in Christ. He also said we all have sins to mourn over the whole of our lives, but some sins, if not dealt with would be fatal. That is because Charles Spurgeon was a false teacher. He held to reformed doctrines. STOP LISTENING TO MEN AND DIG DEEP INTO THE BIBLE. Jesus warned that MANY FALSE PROPHETS WOULD COME IN HIS NAME AND THEY WOULD DECEIVE MANY. Don't take that warning lightly.
When Jeremiah, Isaiah, Exekiel walked the earth the religious establishment was corrupted and apostate. When Jesus and the apostles walked the earth the religious establishment was corrupted and apostate. Do you really think it is any different today?
You see, you cannot just read the literal letter, you have to understand the heart of what it contains, and allow for the outworkings of the Gosdpel of Grace, and the higher poibnts of the law
For you are not perfect, of that I am positive Yes the letter kills and the Spirit brings life (2Cor 3:6) but that does not negate the PLAIN WORDS OF SCRIPTURE.
On another website, an American woman said that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches.
If you properly understood Rom7:7-11 you would know why that is. The reason is that the holiness churches do not preach the crucifixion of the flesh where the passions and desires are crucified once and for all. Thus they have converts bringing their old man along for the ride and they try to reform him gradually through the second work of grace they teach. BOTH the reformed tradition and the arminian (holiness) are in error. They are both built on the premise of Original Sin which completely redefines the Gospel. This is STRONG DELUSION we are talking about here.
Romans 7 is not an illustration of the present Christian walk. Romans 7 is an illustration of a man under the law who is carnal and sold under sin who is being brought under conviction and needs to be delivered from his sin. False teachers twist that passage into a support text of ongoing rebellion in the Christian walk. That is a doctrine of Satan.
Satan has but one battering ram to hurt the genuine convert, the law, in other words make them gicve up, believing they are not good enough for God, that is his only weapon when you think about it.
I am afraid that what you preach will simply vring many a sincere person to in effect be under law.
Yes, for sin shall not be your master, for you are not under laqw but underGreace.
But there is a huge difference between sin not being a persons master, and them living a life of sinless perfection. I have not stated a single thing about "sinless perfection," those are your words and not mine. Paul taught that we are slaves to whom we obey, we either obey sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16). YOU CANNOT DO BOTH.
Jesus said if you sin you are a slave to sin (Joh 8:34) and He taught that He can set you free indeed (Joh 8:36). Are you free indeed?
Jesus said
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, for he has annointed me to preach the good news to the poor
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
And recovery of sight to the blind
To release the oppressed
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord
Luke4-16-18 Yes, RELEASE. Yes, FREEDOM. Not the continuing bondage to sin. Satan wants you to think that the bondage continues because he knows you will lose your soul if you refuse to repent and thus remain in that state.
I'm sorry, but much of what byou preach, will crush people, and oppress them, it does not allow for the outworking of the Gospel, nor does it allow for the higher points of the law