Total Depravity vs. Freewill

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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Like Calvinists, Lutherans view the work of salvation as monergistic in which an unconverted or unrepentant person always resists and rejects God and his ways.[4] Even during conversion, the Formula of Concord says, humans resist "the Word and will of God, until God awakens him from the death of sin, enlightens and renews him."[5] Furthermore, they both see the preaching of the gospel as a means of grace by which God offers salvation.

Calvinists distinguish between a resistible, outward call to salvation given to all who hear the free offer of the gospel, and an efficacious, inward work by the Holy Spirit. Every person is unwilling to follow the outward call to salvation until, as the Westminster Confession puts it, "being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it."[6] Once inwardly renewed, every person freely follows God and his ways as "not only the obligatory but the preferable good,"[7] and hence that special renewing grace is always effective.[/quote]

This is what I have trouble with. If God is the one who awakens, then why doesn't He awaken everyone since it is His desire that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4). This sounds like a contradiction to me. What makes more sense to me is that God works to reveal Himself (through the HS) to all men, according to His foreknowledge of our the human heart, or who would or would not accept Him. Some may need more revealing then others, and God does His work to reveal Himself thus in this manner He choose us. But according to God's foreknowledge of the unrepentant heart, he chooses not to reveal Himself, or go through extra measure, then what was already given (which is why I quote Romans 1 so much). To these people only the sign of Jonah is given. (What I believe Jesus is ultimately saying is no matter how much proof I show you, your hearts will always be hard).

But like Uncle and many others here, and that God deserves all the glory and credit. I reserve the right not to fully understand it and that I could be wrong. But I admit that the belief that God actually chooses some over others sounds uncharacteristic of our loving Father.

Everything else you said I can agree with.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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hi bookends.
again, i'm lutheran, not calvinist.
I dated a girl once who was a Lutheran... I didn't generate a feeling of genuineness from her. She was promiscuous. But then again I had some problems of my own at that time, I guess. Thank you for showing that not all Lutherans are alike.

.......

summary: i'm okay with calvinism, and love my calvinist brothers and sisters. monergism is the tie that binds us.
dunno if any of that makes any more sense than any other beliefs, but there you have it.
zone
I'm ok with it too, and love them too, along with arminians. as long as they aren't hyper-calvinist, who think they some sort of elitist club.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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What makes more sense to me is that God works to reveal Himself (through the HS) to all men, according to His foreknowledge of our the human heart, or who would or would not accept Him.
then did He not go ahead anyway and start creation knowing there were men He would send to hell?
in this model, He didn't start creation until He rehearsed it (?).

does this not say God has to learn something before He began creation and redemption?

like i asked before: was there an alternate Plan where Judas got a chance to accept Christ?

because Jesus said he was a devil from the start....and yet He chose him.

they hadn't met yet had they?
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Calvinists distinguish between a resistible, outward call to salvation given to all who hear the free offer of the gospel, and an efficacious, inward work by the Holy Spirit. Every person is unwilling to follow the outward call to salvation until, as the Westminster Confession puts it, "being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it."[6] Once inwardly renewed, every person freely follows God and his ways as "not only the obligatory but the preferable good,"[7] and hence that special renewing grace is always effective.
This is what I have trouble with. If God is the one who awakens, then why doesn't He awaken everyone since it is His desire that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4). This sounds like a contradiction to me. What makes more sense to me is that God works to reveal Himself (through the HS) to all men, according to His foreknowledge of our the human heart, or who would or would not accept Him. Some may need more revealing then others, and God does His work to reveal Himself thus in this manner He choose us. But according to God's foreknowledge of the unrepentant heart, he chooses not to reveal Himself, or go through extra measure, then what was already given (which is why I quote Romans 1 so much). To these people only the sign of Jonah is given. (What I believe Jesus is ultimately saying is no matter how much proof I show you, your hearts will always be hard).

But like Uncle and many others here, and that God deserves all the glory and credit. I reserve the right not to fully understand it and that I could be wrong. But I admit that the belief that God actually chooses some over others sounds uncharacteristic of our loving Father.

Everything else you said I can agree with.
ya Bookends i hear you.
but what of all the gentiles who were excluded before the Gospel went out?
He had chosen Israel....the gentiles were lost.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Just read something about true arminanism..and what it teaches..by an arminian..i told you about books to read. Get it from the horse's mouth, not some biased calvinist.
okay.
are you going to Read Wesley's Journals?:D
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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ya Bookends i hear you.
but what of all the gentiles who were excluded before the Gospel went out?
He had chosen Israel....the gentiles were lost.

The gentiles here lost in the sense that they didn't have physical natural blessings of God at that time, but I'm not so sure every single gentile is lost before gospel went out. Were the 3 wise men lost? was Nebuchadnezzar lost in the end, was Nineveh lost when Johan preached to them? Grant the bible doesn't tell if this is just a temporal earthly salvation and if it had eternal significance. I think everyone will be held responsible for what light God gave them, if they responded to that light, God gave them more light and so...Frankly, the bible doesn't speak must of this outside of Ephesians 2. How were the people before Israel saved? Was nobody saved between Adam and Noah, and Noah and Abraham?

I don't believe the bible teaches that other nations outside Israel were doomed to be lost in the sense that individuals couldn't be saved. What as Israel chosen for? To be a light unto the world, but they failed, because they were just the anti-type to the true Israel, Christ.


I just know know!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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then did He not go ahead anyway and start creation knowing there were men He would send to hell?
In my opinion, yes. Just because God knew who would embrace him, doesn't mean God caused them to embrace Him. No pain, no gain...lol

in this model, He didn't start creation until He rehearsed it (?).
I'm not sure I understand your question, What model suggest that God didn't rehearse it. Predestination of the individual is a rehearsal, isn't it?

does this not say God has to learn something before He began creation and redemption?
No, again I don't understand the premise of your question. I don't believe God as to learn anything. Except for Christ had to learn to be obedient to the Father and not His own will.

like i asked before: was there an alternate Plan where Judas got a chance to accept Christ? Did Jesus get an alternate plan other then the cross?

because Jesus said he was a devil from the start....and yet He chose him. For that very reason.

they hadn't met yet had they? ???
No, Jesus chose Judas because Jesus or the Father knew his heart and the out come. Not because God caused him to rebel. God knew Judas in the womb, didn't He?

This all my opinion, I think we are trying to get into the mind of God here and my brain is going a mush.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
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This is a thread meant to explore the differences between those who hold to the doctrine of election vs. those who hold to the doctrine of freewill.
Rules:
1) No snarkiness. ( Smart Alec answers turn away others more than lead them to truth)
2) No extended cut and paste posts. ( we all can refer to theologian's books)
3) No extended posts. (If you can't explain yourself succinctly, move on)

First off, definitions are in order:
Total depravity:
Total depravity is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Free Will:
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices. In philosophy controversy exists as to what degree and under what circumstances free will is possible.[1]

I hold the doctrine of election through motivated free-will. I have never experienced or seen any free-will that was not motivated by Good or evil.
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
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In my opinion, yes. Just because God knew who would embrace him, doesn't mean God caused them to embrace Him. No pain, no gain...lol



I'm not sure I understand your question, What model suggest that God didn't rehearse it. Predestination of the individual is a rehearsal, isn't it?



No, again I don't understand the premise of your question. I don't believe God as to learn anything. Except for Christ had to learn to be obedient to the Father and not His own will.



No, Jesus chose Judas because Jesus or the Father knew his heart and the out come. Not because God caused him to rebel. God knew Judas in the womb, didn't He?

This all my opinion, I think we are trying to get into the mind of God here and my brain is going a mush.
Another thing to consider regarding Judas is concerning who Jesus points the finger of blame at:

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus points the finger at Satan, not the spirit that confessed that Jesus Christ/God has come in the flesh. It is also possible that Judas is not held responsible, but Satan. It's possible, but I do not say that it is sure.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
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Man's free will does not depreciate God's sovereignty, man calls on the name of God then God performs His divine work on them and receives all the glory. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of His word to man and convicts of sin and man becomes enlightened by His word, man confesses their sins and surrenders to God, and God purifies and transforms of their heart, justifies, saves, and sanctifies; man cannot be justified without Him. God is no respecter of persons that's why out of His sovereignty has given man ability to choose.

My understanding of total depravity is that man is born into this world enslaved by sin however man is not completely dysfunctional that he cannot do anything good or call on God to be saved,
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Rom 10:13). God created man in His own image, innocent and sinless, but the sin of one man marred humanity thus the unregenerate man, who has not tasted the gift of Christ's righteousness, is not righteous before God (Rom 3:10). The righteousness of a sinner is as filthy rags before God (Isa 64:6). This is why Jesus paid the ultimate price for our righteousness and the sinner needs to be saved and have God's righteousness bestowed upon them by faith so that genuine righteousness that comes as a fruit of regeneration will be pleasing to God, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference (Rom 3:22).

God permits man to accept or reject His plan of salvation and those who reject it will face the second death. Jesus instructed that we go into the world preaching the gospel- the good news of His death, burial, and resurrection for the salvation of mankind- so Christ provided a way of salvation for everyone, not just for an elite group, The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light [Jesus], that all men through him might believe (John 1:7); And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely (Rev 22:17).

Limited atonement and unconditional election is unbiblical. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth. John 6:51- I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. John 1:29- The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. The just God loves all mankind that's why He sent His Son to offer Himself as a sacrifice for all. His will is for all to be saved but His will does not always come to pass (this would be His permissive will); not everyone will be saved because not all exercise faith in Jesus and many are choosing darkness rather than light. If God arbitrarily predestined some to be saved and others to be lost without giving them an opportunity to be saved and if Jesus died for only the elects, then it would be injustice to hold the non-elects accountable for their sins. However, God is just and if anyone lands in Hell fire it is their fault, not God's because He provided a way of escape for all but not everyone choose that way.
For many are called, but few are chosen (Matt 22:14)- Those who respond to the unlimited invitation by repenting and believing in Him will be chosen.
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him (Heb 2:3)- One won't escape the second death if they neglect the gift of salvation. The fact that salvation can be neglected proves that man has free will.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me (Rev 3:20)-
Jesus stands at the door of man's hearts and knocks, and when they open up their hearts, He comes into their life. The fact that man opens the door of their hearts proves free will.

Total depravity is not an excuse for gallivanting around with sin after salvation. One who has been genuinely set free from sin is no longer in bondage to it as they are dead to sin and alive in Christ, and they strive to walk in the Spirit by His power. However, the believer is still a free moral agent so they can either continue on the narrow way by loving the Lord and obeying His word or depart, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD (Josh 24:15). The reality is that not all saints persevere to the end and many backslide during the course of their walk with God. Demas and Hymenaeus left the faith and the Holy Spirit said that in the latter days many will depart from the faith heeding to seducing spirits. It is not God’s will that we fall away but He wants us to, by our own free will, serve Him in sincerity and truth, feed ourselves with His word in order to grow, and make our calling and election sure. There is security in Jesus Christ and we have God's enabling grace and guidance from His Spirit to keep us on the right path.
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
okay.
are you going to Read Wesley's Journals?:D
I am reading some of his works now..do you have any idea how much the man wrote? Itll take me a year non stop to read it all, if i even can..im working on something i bought at the bookstore.
Like i said Ms Zone..i do not know where you got this info from that he was not a christian. I am even ok with the concept that he was a flawed and not 'perfect' or never possibly was the Holy man that some might have thought he was(maybe he was more flawed than what it seemed) But that does not mean God did not use him..Calvin was a murder, God used him according to some..right? So was Augustine from what i hear..and Luther was at least a racist bigot..but God used him.
So why such vitriol against Wesley?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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The gentiles here lost in the sense that they didn't have physical natural blessings of God at that time, but I'm not so sure every single gentile is lost before gospel went out. Were the 3 wise men lost? was Nebuchadnezzar lost in the end, was Nineveh lost when Johan preached to them? Grant the bible doesn't tell if this is just a temporal earthly salvation and if it had eternal significance. I think everyone will be held responsible for what light God gave them, if they responded to that light, God gave them more light and so...Frankly, the bible doesn't speak must of this outside of Ephesians 2. How were the people before Israel saved? Was nobody saved between Adam and Noah, and Noah and Abraham?

I don't believe the bible teaches that other nations outside Israel were doomed to be lost in the sense that individuals couldn't be saved. What as Israel chosen for? To be a light unto the world, but they failed, because they were just the anti-type to the true Israel, Christ.


I just know know!
no, i don't mean they were doomed to be lost as in created just for that.
but the Bible is pretty clear they were being born and perishing in idolatry...outside the covenant, excluded.
i know there were exceptions, even within the commonwealth.

and i agree where scripture is sielnt we cant say anything. but ephesians does say it, and all the OT is about israel pretty much.

was israel the ppl chosen to be a light to the world?

or was Christ?

:)
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
listen...if you can't be more careful with your dialogue, i see little point in continuing.
i know what Calvinism teaches.

faced with a choice, i will choose Monergism over Synergism everytime. if that means not having Lutheran churches, i go to reformed.
not 'Methods' where i have a warm feeling or bawl at an anxious bench then submit to interrogation by Asa and Charles wanna-bes.
"all you have to do is..........and then this, then this, then this."

i don't care how you dress up your theology, i don't care how many times you hate on calvin and express outrage that wesley was a sinner:rolleyes:, no matter how often you appeal to GREATER GRACE than other christians....you walk in the Spirit more...etc etc

you're looking to boast. and you do.

you don't see it, but the most arrogant believers are not calvinists, they are FREEWILLERS.

i don't care how you dress it up, you have God doing YOUR WILL.
Oh zone...(slams head against keyboard*) You do not get what i said at all. Never did I boast, I have appealed to God's work in all men and women who are saved..God does it. I merely did not resist..you did not resist. Can anyone in their right mind boast about this? When did i say I did anything apart from God? Show me, you will not find it..you have to add words i never said to imply this.
I am not boasting..I never said I was better than you..I simply have an different emphasis..for personal reasons and due to my reading of scripture..and books on theology..and life, I have this emphasis Zone. The appeal to grace always must be followed by repentance,otherwise we run to the danger or possibily just having a head knowledge of God and never truly giving our lives to him..and live licentiously. As far as the dialogue goes..I was not the one who went on a four page anti wesley rant, it was you Zone. I never said i was holy in my own doing..or good in my own doing..I Know that I am not the old man that I used to be..and i seek to be more perfected each and every day, every moment. That should never be seen as a bad thing.
The fact that you had to call someone who does not call themself a calvinist or a monergist a 'freewiller' is in itself arrogant! Only calvinists or should i more stress..the new calvinists aka High calvinist TULIPists do this. His will, God's will is done when men do not resist..thats the only work that I,you or anyone does. Cease from your nonsensical accusatory statements that anyone is boasting here. I simply am warning others to not appeal to cheap false grace, true grace always has a response, its human responsibility which is the fruit of repentance,and is Holy spirit motivated.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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In my opinion, yes. Just because God knew who would embrace him, doesn't mean God caused them to embrace Him. No pain, no gain...lol

I'm not sure I understand your question, What model suggest that God didn't rehearse it. Predestination of the individual is a rehearsal, isn't it?

No, again I don't understand the premise of your question. I don't believe God as to learn anything. Except for Christ had to learn to be obedient to the Father and not His own will.

No, Jesus chose Judas because Jesus or the Father knew his heart and the out come. Not because God caused him to rebel. God knew Judas in the womb, didn't He?

This all my opinion, I think we are trying to get into the mind of God here and my brain is going a mush.
i agree and though i believe He is not offended if we wrestle with these things, i think i have a limit also.



time for a hot choklit i think.
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
why is it the Methodists always have to have REVIVALS?

think about that...........
You confuse us with the Charismatics and pentecostals Zone..

There is nothing wrong with revivals of the past..if anything the fact that people are seeking revival is a good thing..it means they want change..something more, not necessarily this emotional showmanship that people call revivals these days..
But your anti methodist rant failed ma'am..sorry to tell you :p
 
P

Powemm

Guest
our best speech, efforts, works,doings, knowledge etc.... is
Like the very dirt he
Put his beautiful little face in. I think Jimmy digs said it all best!!!.... exactly !!!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I am reading some of his works now..do you have any idea how much the man wrote? Itll take me a year non stop to read it all, if i even can..im working on something i bought at the bookstore.
Like i said Ms Zone..i do not know where you got this info from that he was not a christian. I am even ok with the concept that he was a flawed and not 'perfect' or never possibly was the Holy man that some might have thought he was(maybe he was more flawed than what it seemed) But that does not mean God did not use him..Calvin was a murder, God used him according to some..right? So was Augustine from what i hear..and Luther was at least a racist bigot..but God used him.
So why such vitriol against Wesley?
LOL raul:D

you can have wesley, k?
i'm good with that.

hehehehe....you're funny.
love zone

Calvin was a murder
So was Augustine
Luther was at least a racist bigot.

So why such vitriol against Wesley


LOLOL
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
LOL raul:D

you can have wesley, k?
i'm good with that.

hehehehe....you're funny.
love zone

Calvin was a murder
So was Augustine
Luther was at least a racist bigot.

So why such vitriol against Wesley

LOLOL
Well history proves this..I do not recall Wesley killing anybody..Yes he denied some woman he had a crush on who married another man from having communion and spoke about her 'sins' publically..from what i read..but this does not deny that he was not a believer.
Luther was a bit anti semetic..Calvin killed at least one man directly(Serventus) and boasted about it,was commended for it by other 'christians'..Augustine while heralded as an intelligent man, as one young reform poster referred to him, was also flawed. Now I do hope I see them all in heaven..Wesley I am sure is there..Arminius, most definitely..the other three? I will be quite relieved to see them there, albeit surprised..
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Oh zone...(slams head against keyboard*) You do not get what i said at all. Never did I boast, I have appealed to God's work in all men and women who are saved..God does it. I merely did not resist..you did not resist. Can anyone in their right mind boast about this? When did i say I did anything apart from God? Show me, you will not find it..you have to add words i never said to imply this.
I am not boasting..I never said I was better than you..I simply have an different emphasis..for personal reasons and due to my reading of scripture..and books on theology..and life, I have this emphasis Zone. The appeal to grace always must be followed by repentance,otherwise we run to the danger or possibily just having a head knowledge of God and never truly giving our lives to him..and live licentiously. As far as the dialogue goes..I was not the one who went on a four page anti wesley rant, it was you Zone. I never said i was holy in my own doing..or good in my own doing..I Know that I am not the old man that I used to be..and i seek to be more perfected each and every day, every moment. That should never be seen as a bad thing.
The fact that you had to call someone who does not call themself a calvinist or a monergist a 'freewiller' is in itself arrogant! Only calvinists or should i more stress..the new calvinists aka High calvinist TULIPists do this. His will, God's will is done when men do not resist..thats the only work that I,you or anyone does. Cease from your nonsensical accusatory statements that anyone is boasting here. I simply am warning others to not appeal to cheap false grace, true grace always has a response, its human responsibility which is the fruit of repentance,and is Holy spirit motivated.
raul bud.
i held off on the wesly rant because every thread and post you had was a calvin rant, k?

and the stuff about wesley is true.

sorry:rolleyes:..it just is:D

Oh zone...(slams head against keyboard*)


you'll be okay raul....it's just cranial keyboard embedment syndrome.
drink hot liquids...see you in the morning:D
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Well history proves this..I do not recall Wesley killing anybody..Yes he denied some woman he had a crush on who married another man from having communion and spoke about her 'sins' publically..from what i read..but this does not deny that he was not a believer.
Luther was a bit anti semetic..Calvin killed at least one man directly(Serventus) and boasted about it,was commended for it by other 'christians'..Augustine while heralded as an intelligent man, as one young reform poster referred to him, was also flawed. Now I do hope I see them all in heaven..Wesley I am sure is there..Arminius, most definitely..the other three? I will be quite relieved to see them there, albeit surprised..
Jesus said hate is murder.
Wesley hated on a guy, plagiarized, stole from him, lied about him, forged his name on something and then tried to destroy his reputation.

plus he confessed he never loved God.
but anyways. he said he had a "warm feeling"

maybe he repented. i hope so.

let's worry about ppl who are still with us getting the Gospel right okay bud?
that may involve just preaching it from the texts and leaving the old fellas out of it.
love zone.

wait...serious?
what?

"Arminius, most definitely"???

hahahaha....why most definitely? holier? more deserving?
LOLOLOL