I am still confused abit..
I guess you are saying Paul was forced? No, i disagree.
no!
i've never said forced.
ever. not even in my kit.
the forced/robot thing is not part of my argument. and i hope we dont have to keep using it. its not helpful.
what i am saying in paul's case, as we read in those texts, is that what would we expect he would have done?
we're told what happened. he was blind and confronted by the Risen AND Ascended Christ Who had retunred to appear to paul especially.
he spent 3 days blind in a fetal position then a christian comes over and restoes your sight and then Jesus teaches you directly?
like there's no forcing there -
there's persuasion at the very least.
now, we know the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. and here's what the definition of faith is:
4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).
[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).
Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]
1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).
Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.
Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).
Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).
Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,
self-control; against such things there is no law."
2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."
Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort.
2. Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin; see 2307/thelçma). Accordingly, faith (4102/pistis) and "God's preferred-will (2307/thelçma)" are directly connected in Scripture.
2 Ro 12:2,3: " And do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will (2307/thelçma) of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).
5 2 Cor 8:5,7: " And this, not as we had expected, but they first
gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will (2307/thelçma) of
God" (NASU).
7" But just as you abound in everything, in faith (4102/pistis)
and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love
we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also"
(NASU).
Heb 10:36,38: "36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will (2307/thelçma) of God, you may receive what was promised" (NASU).
" BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH(4102/pistis); AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM" (NASU).
1 Jn 5:4: "For whatever is born of God conquers the world;
and this is the conquest that has conquered the world – our faith
(4102/pistis)."
3. In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse ("divine spark"; cf. the Heb hiphil form of believe, *mn, in a later discussion). Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin).
1 Hab 2:1: " I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;
And I will keep watch to see what He will speak in (Heb b ) me" (NASU).
Hab 2:4: "Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live in his faith" (= 4102/pistis, "faith from the Lord").
More on what faith is . . . and isn't
In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to
please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).
Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!
The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).
Key quotes
"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came
to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).
"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).
"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).
"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).
"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.
F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).
"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).
"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).
"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).
Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").
As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.
Summary
Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).
Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.
[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]
Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.
Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!
Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU).
.........
so there's even the differentiation between belief and faith above.
do you say that the greek scholars are wrong in their writings above that pistis is always a gift, and that it is effectual and it is God working in to know and do His will and pleasure?
because i see far more evidence for the fact that He is Working than we are.
not that we are not responding
when we are quickened. we are. we are new ppl.
and the scriptures say we will walk the good works He was ordained we should walk in.
The bible clearly says in deuteronomy 30:19 the choice between the blessing or the curse, therefore we are told, to choose life..
okay....but that was the LAW, raul.
look:
Deuteronomy 27
The Altar on Mount Ebal
1Now Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, “Keep the whole commandment that I command you today. 2And on the day you cross over the Jordan to the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall set up large stones and plaster them with plaster. 3And you shall write on them all the words of this law, when you cross over to enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you. 4And when you have crossed over the Jordan, you shall set up these stones, concerning which I command you today, on Mount Ebal, and you shall plaster them with plaster. 5And there you shall build an altar to the LORD your God, an altar of stones. You shall wield no iron tool on them; 6you shall build an altar to the LORD your God of uncuta stones. And you shall offer burnt offerings on it to the LORD your God, 7and you shall sacrifice peace offerings and shall eat there, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God. 8And you shall write on the stones all the words of this law very plainly.”
Curses from Mount Ebal
9Then Moses and the Levitical priests said to all Israel, “Keep silence and hear, O Israel: this day you have become the people of the LORD your God. 10You shall therefore obey the voice of the LORD your God, keeping his commandments and his statutes, which I command you today.”
11That day Moses charged the people, saying, 12“When you have crossed over the Jordan, these shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin. 13And these shall stand on Mount Ebal for the curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali. 14And the Levites shall declare to all the men of Israel in a loud voice:
15“‘Cursed be the man who makes a carved or cast metal image, an abomination to the LORD, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’
16“‘Cursed be anyone who dishonors his father or his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
17“‘Cursed be anyone who moves his neighbor’s landmark.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
18“‘Cursed be anyone who misleads a blind man on the road.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
19“‘Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
20“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s nakedness.’b And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
21“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with any kind of animal.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
22“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his sister, whether the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
23“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his mother-in-law.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
24“‘Cursed be anyone who strikes down his neighbor in secret.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
25“‘Cursed be anyone who takes a bribe to shed innocent blood.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
26“‘Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’
then to 28
Blessings for Obedience
Curses for Disobedience
etc.
The bible clearly says in deuteronomy 30:19 the choice between the blessing or the curse, therefore we are told, to choose life..
Galatians 3
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not!
For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that
the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
so refer back to PISTIS.
Like i said, I am totally fine with his being knocked off the road to damascus, God does things like that to get our attention..But after that, there is a response needed by us, which I do believe God gives us the necessary ability.
but it said Paul was against Jesus.
he said he counted it all as dung!
and....he said he was set apart from his mothers womb.
And we all know that Paul did not say 'thanks but no thanks' scripture clearly shows that. So that part of your argument is unfounded. Because its not even something that was said, we all know Paul chose to live for God. He appeals to grace, this we know..but that grace always requires a response.
And Paul responded..he fought the good fight of faith,as he said in scripture.
okay
..........
excuse typos etc
