Total Depravity vs. Freewill

zone · Jan 20, 2013

but Bookends.
if they do make it, will it be because they deserved it? in any way? it says NOT OUR DOING - gift.
no need to answer.

i dunno.

Abiding · Jan 20, 2013

predestination is absolutely true the way Paul taught it
but not so much the way people teach it.
certainly not the way extreme calvinists teach it.

Bookends · Jan 20, 2013

zone said:

I'm going answer anyway with a big fat NO!!!

On that note, I'm out...

Abiding · Jan 20, 2013

for poor bookends knuckles

unclefester · Jan 20, 2013

.......................

rauleetoe · Jan 21, 2013

zone said:

no!
i've never said forced.
ever. not even in my kit.

the forced/robot thing is not part of my argument. and i hope we dont have to keep using it. its not helpful.

what i am saying in paul's case, as we read in those texts, is that what would we expect he would have done?
we're told what happened. he was blind and confronted by the Risen AND Ascended Christ Who had retunred to appear to paul especially.

he spent 3 days blind in a fetal position then a christian comes over and restoes your sight and then Jesus teaches you directly?

like there's no forcing there - there's persuasion at the very least.

now, we know the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. and here's what the definition of faith is:

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort.

2. Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin; see 2307/thelçma). Accordingly, faith (4102/pistis) and "God's preferred-will (2307/thelçma)" are directly connected in Scripture.

2 Ro 12:2,3: " And do not be conformed to this world, but betransformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will (2307/thelçma) of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

5 2 Cor 8:5,7: " And this, not as we had expected, but they first

gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will (2307/thelçma) of

God" (NASU).

7" But just as you abound in everything, in faith (4102/pistis)

and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love

we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also"

(NASU).

Heb 10:36,38: "36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will (2307/thelçma) of God, you may receive what was promised" (NASU).

" BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH(4102/pistis); AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM" (NASU).

1 Jn 5:4: "For whatever is born of God conquers the world;

and this is the conquest that has conquered the world – our faith

(4102/pistis)."

3. In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse ("divine spark"; cf. the Heb hiphil form of believe, *mn, in a later discussion). Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin).

1 Hab 2:1: " I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;

And I will keep watch to see what He will speak in (Heb b ) me" (NASU).

Hab 2:4: "Behold, as for the proud one,

His soul is not right within him;

But the righteous will live in his faith" (= 4102/pistis, "faith from the Lord").

More on what faith is . . . and isn't

In Scripture, faith and belief are not exactly the same. Faith always comes from God and involves His revelation therefore faith is beyond belief!
Faith is God's work; faith is never the work of people. We cannot produce faith ourselves, nor can we "drum it up at will." Rather, faith comes as Christ speaks His rhçma-word within (see Ro 10:17, Gk text).
In all of Scripture, only the term faith is ever used in the following way: Ro 14:23: Whatever is not of faith (4102/pistis) is sin." Heb 11:6: "And without faith (4102/pistis) it is impossible to
please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (NASU).

Reflection: Nothing quite like this two-fold witness appears elsewhere in the Bible. These sweeping statements sober the heart and inspire the soul!

The Lord offers to inbirth faith in each scene of life – so that each matters equally in eternity . . . no matter how insignificant they seem (Lk 16:10 with Lk 17:6 and 2 Pet 1:2).

Key quotes

"Faith always pre-supposes revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Genesis, 55). "Faith is always a response to a divine revelation" (W. H. Griffith Thomas, Hebrews, 143). "Faith . . . both in its initiation and every step of the way, is Spirit given . . . faith is God given" (W. Hendriksen, Galatians, 197). "Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by

reason of existing" (D. Edmond Hiebert, Thessalonians, 2 Thes 1:11). "Faith is always a gift of God" (L. Morris, John, p 520). "The basis of faith is God's revelation of Himself . . . Christianity came

to be seen as a faith event" (O. Michel, Dictionary of New Testament Theology).

"Faith is the divine response, wrought in man, by God" (from Berkof's Systematic Theology, representing the views of Barth and Brunner).

"Faith always has the element of assurance, certainty and confidence . . . and evidential value substantiating the thing we hope for . . . with faith, there is no strain or tension; rather, it has the element of assurance and confidence in it . . . if there is strain or tension . . . trying to persuade yourself to keep from doubting, you can be quite sure that it is not faith . . . faith is not the law of mathematical probability, . . . faith is not natural . . .faith is spiritual, the gift of God . . . you cannot command faith at will, faith is always something that is given-inwrought by God; . . . therefore, if you want to be a man of faith, it will always be the result of becoming a certain type of person" (M. Lloyd Jones, Romans, Ro 4:18-25).

"Faith is the divinely given conviction of things unseen" (Homer Kent Jr., Hebrews, 217, quoting Theological Dictionary of the NT vol 2, 476).

"Faith is the organ which enables people to see the invisible order" (F.

F. Bruce, Hebrews, 279).

"Faith is knowing what is His will toward us; therefore, we hold faith to be the knowledge of God's will toward us" (John Calvin, as quoted by R. McAfee Brown in Is Faith Obsolete?).

"Right faith is a thing wrought in us by the Holy Spirit" (Wm. Tyndale).

"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it . . . you cannot manufacture faith, you can not work it up . . . you can believe a promise, and at the same time not have the faith to appropriate it . . . genuine, Scriptural faith is not our ability to ‘count it done,’ but is the deep consciousness divinely imparted to the heart of man that it is done, . . . it is the faith that only God can give . . . do not struggle in the power of the will . . . what a mistake to take our belief in God and call of faith . . . Christ, the living word, is our sufficiency . . . (Charles Price, The Real Faith, Logos/publications).

Note: On the distinction between believing (belief), and faith in the Scriptures see Js 2:19; Jn 10:38; Ac 8:13, 26:27,28; Ro 14:2; 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Jn 4:1; also Jn 2:23, 7:31, 12:42 and 4102/pisteuô ("believe").

As in the Gospels, a person's believing (belief) is vital (cf. Heb 11:6). But a personal encounter with Christ (a true connection with Him and His Word) is always necessary for believing ("man's responsibility") to be transformed into faith (which is always and only God's word). See also Mt 8:10,13, 9:22,28,29, 15:28; Ac 20:21; Ro 9:32; Gal 3:9,22.

Summary

Belief and faith are not exactly equivalent terms. When Jesus told people, "Your faith has made you well," faith was still His gift (Eph 2:8,9). Any gift however, once received, becomes the "possession" of the recipient. Faith however is always from God and is purely His work (2 Thes 1:11).

Note: The Greek definite article is uniformly used in the expressions "your faith," "their faith" (which occur over 30 times in the Greek NT). This genitive construction with the article refers to "the principle of faith (operating in) you" – not "your faith" in the sense that faith is ever generated by the recipient.

[The meaning of the definite article in this construction is "the principle of faith at work in you," "the operating-principle of faith in them," etc. For examples see: Mt 9:2,22,29; Lk 17:19; Phil 2:17; 2 Pet 1:5, etc.]

Faith (4102/pistis) involves belief but it goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation (inworking) of God. Faith is always God's work. Our believing has eternal meaning when it becomes "faith-believing" by the transforming grace of God.

Reflection: Demons believe (and shudder) . . . but they do not have (experience) faith!

Js 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (NASU).

.........

so there's even the differentiation between belief and faith above.

do you say that the greek scholars are wrong in their writings above that pistis is always a gift, and that it is effectual and it is God working in to know and do His will and pleasure?

because i see far more evidence for the fact that He is Working than we are.
not that we are not responding when we are quickened. we are. we are new ppl.
and the scriptures say we will walk the good works He was ordained we should walk in.

okay....but that was the LAW, raul.

look:

Deuteronomy 27
The Altar on Mount Ebal
1Now Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, “Keep the whole commandment that I command you today. 2And on the day you cross over the Jordan to the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall set up large stones and plaster them with plaster. 3And you shall write on them all the words of this law, when you cross over to enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you. 4And when you have crossed over the Jordan, you shall set up these stones, concerning which I command you today, on Mount Ebal, and you shall plaster them with plaster. 5And there you shall build an altar to the LORD your God, an altar of stones. You shall wield no iron tool on them; 6you shall build an altar to the LORD your God of uncuta stones. And you shall offer burnt offerings on it to the LORD your God, 7and you shall sacrifice peace offerings and shall eat there, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God. 8And you shall write on the stones all the words of this law very plainly.”

Curses from Mount Ebal
9Then Moses and the Levitical priests said to all Israel, “Keep silence and hear, O Israel: this day you have become the people of the LORD your God. 10You shall therefore obey the voice of the LORD your God, keeping his commandments and his statutes, which I command you today.”

11That day Moses charged the people, saying, 12“When you have crossed over the Jordan, these shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin. 13And these shall stand on Mount Ebal for the curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali. 14And the Levites shall declare to all the men of Israel in a loud voice:

15“‘Cursed be the man who makes a carved or cast metal image, an abomination to the LORD, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’

16“‘Cursed be anyone who dishonors his father or his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

17“‘Cursed be anyone who moves his neighbor’s landmark.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

18“‘Cursed be anyone who misleads a blind man on the road.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

19“‘Cursed be anyone who perverts the justice due to the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

20“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his father’s wife, because he has uncovered his father’s nakedness.’b And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

21“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with any kind of animal.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

22“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his sister, whether the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

23“‘Cursed be anyone who lies with his mother-in-law.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

24“‘Cursed be anyone who strikes down his neighbor in secret.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

25“‘Cursed be anyone who takes a bribe to shed innocent blood.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

26“‘Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

then to 28

Blessings for Obedience
Curses for Disobedience

etc.

Galatians 3
21Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slaveg nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

so refer back to PISTIS.

but it said Paul was against Jesus.
he said he counted it all as dung!

and....he said he was set apart from his mothers womb.

okay

..........

excuse typos etc

Have you ever considered writing books?
You write so much, it would take me till the end of this week to read that response in its entirety..
having said that. Yes, salvation is a gift! I agree..(is that what you are implying w this reply)
But like a person after your post said..a gift must be received to be a gift. So yes, its a gift..it is all God, but God gave..and we simply stop being knuckleheaded and let his spirit work(we cannot take credit for doing this,even the ability to do this is a gift from God!) That is the one 'work' or act we must do.

zone · Jan 21, 2013

rauleetoe said:

lol raul.
ya, i've written books.
in another lifetime

.......

hey! we did it raul!

nite bud.
zone

psychomom · Jan 21, 2013

Bookends said:

unclefester said:

Hey, Bookends.

(and hey to you, fes!)

I considered answering (not answering?) this for a while, because I've had to consider this in 'real' life.

One sixth of our six precious children is living in full rebellion against the Lord. *weeping*
I know she knows the truth---she was raised in the Faith.
And only God knows her heart, and of course, the final word (Word?

) hasn't been spoken....(I'm not doin' any singing yet

).

But I've had eight years to freak out, cry before the Throne of Grace, plead with God for mercy and forgiveness for her, and ask Him to make her His.
I do know that is she ever was His own, she still is, and He will bring her back to Himself. (and there's comfort!)

Natch, fes is right. I can't come to any conclusion that makes my heart feel any better except "Thy will be done."

It's taken all of the eight years to get to any semblance of peace about it, because she will not listen. She's 'happy' where she is.

I know this will sound all kinds of cold hearted, but the simple fact is before she is my beloved daughter, she is God's creation.
I also had to think about this--
why should I be any more broken over her rebellion than someone else's? why would I weep over her state, and not the state of any lost sinner?
That's my own selfishness, and that's had to be dealt with, too.

I'm not a 'Calvinist', but I am a monergist. I was absent here yesterday doing a study of Jude, which caused me to read Numbers 16, and you know what I found there?
God was choosing.

4 When Moses heard this, he fell on his face;

5 and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the LORD will show who is His, and who is holy, and will bring him near to Himself; even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near to Himself.

6 “Do this: take censers for yourselves, Korah and all your company,

7 and put fire in them, and lay incense upon them in the presence of the LORD tomorrow; and the man whom the LORD chooses shall be the one who is holy.

So, about my baby girl...
(well, she's 31, but as every momma knows, they're always our babies

)
Do I want my baby girl to be among those who will inherit salvation?
Duh! lol
I do wish universalism was true!

Am I God?
Again, duh! (and we can all be grateful for that.)
I've had to place our daughter at the foot of the Cross (again and again--I really am a slow learner

)
I have to trust the One Who created her to do what He knows is good.
Whether or not it appears good to me.

None of that has been easy, and I s'pose there may be moments I lose the peace God has given me about it. due to my own sin. (again,

)
And yes and amen, fes...He is my Refuge...my only Refuge.
For this moment, I find that's enough. ♥

eternally-gratefull · Jan 21, 2013

psychomom said:

Hey, Bookends.

(and hey to you, fes!)

I considered answering (not answering?) this for a while, because I've had to consider this in 'real' life.

One sixth of our six precious children is living in full rebellion against the Lord. *weeping*
I know she knows the truth---she was raised in the Faith.
And only God knows her heart, and of course, the final word (Word?

) hasn't been spoken....(I'm not doin' any singing yet

).

But I've had eight years to freak out, cry before the Throne of Grace, plead with God for mercy and forgiveness for her, and ask Him to make her His.
I do know that is she ever was His own, she still is, and He will bring her back to Himself. (and there's comfort!)

Natch, fes is right. I can't come to any conclusion that makes my heart feel any better except "Thy will be done."

It's taken all of the eight years to get to any semblance of peace about it, because she will not listen. She's 'happy' where she is.

I know this will sound all kinds of cold hearted, but the simple fact is before she is my beloved daughter, she is God's creation.
I also had to think about this--
why should I be any more broken over her rebellion than someone else's? why would I weep over her state, and not the state of any lost sinner?
That's my own selfishness, and that's had to be dealt with, too.

I'm not a 'Calvinist', but I am a monergist. I was absent here yesterday doing a study of Jude, which caused me to read Numbers 16, and you know what I found there?
God was choosing.

4 When Moses heard this, he fell on his face;

5 and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the LORD will show who is His, and who is holy, and will bring him near to Himself; even the one whom He will choose, He will bring near to Himself.

6 “Do this: take censers for yourselves, Korah and all your company,

7 and put fire in them, and lay incense upon them in the presence of the LORD tomorrow; and the man whom the LORD chooses shall be the one who is holy.

So, about my baby girl...
(well, she's 31, but as every momma knows, they're always our babies

)
Do I want my baby girl to be among those who will inherit salvation?
Duh! lol
I do wish universalism was true!

Am I God?
Again, duh! (and we can all be grateful for that.)
I've had to place our daughter at the foot of the Cross (again and again--I really am a slow learner

)
I have to trust the One Who created her to do what He knows is good.
Whether or not it appears good to me.

None of that has been easy, and I s'pose there may be moments I lose the peace God has given me about it. due to my own sin. (again,

)
And yes and amen, fes...He is my Refuge...my only Refuge.
For this moment, I find that's enough. ♥

As for the first part. Amen. If she ever was, She still is. And yes, What comfort.

As for the second part. About Gods will? it is his will she come to him, Just like it was in Jesus day, when it was his will to take the children of Israel under his arms, as a mother hen gathers her chicks. But they were not willing. If she is not his, God has blessed her enough to put you in her life to show his true love, He wishes to adopt her also, and is giving her every change. If she ends up being separated from him in unbelief in eternity. it is not like God did not try, or did not will her to be separated for eternity. He still loved her more than enough, by placing you in her life!

Abiding · Jan 21, 2013

Of coarse He chooses the question is: does the bible tell us
anything about how He makes this choice?

Why did He give Cain a peptalk? for dramatic effect to mislead us?

We know theres nothing good in us but is there another answer?

eternally-gratefull · Jan 21, 2013

Abiding said:

I think he did show us how he makes his choice. Jesus tells is in the book of John.

It was Gods will to send his son into the world. That whoever believes in him, should never perish, But has eternal life. It was his plan from the beginning. Since this was his plan. Who would have chosen based on this plan.

Abiding · Jan 21, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

I agree but to say we must believe to some is saying we are adding to the work of redemption.
2 nights ago i heard, to say a man must believe is allowing man to provide 50% of redemption.
Id say that that is a very stupid statement......but the rest of the room believed that.

I tend to shy away from debating it, and i can provide more scripture than my opposition.
But who reads long posts these days anyway?

eternally-gratefull · Jan 21, 2013

Abiding said:

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Many believe, but only maybe 50 %, Then the other 50 % of their belief is in their works. thus they think you can be saved then lose it. So basically there faith is in their works.

Many believe, but have no faith. thus they keep living like they did, because they have never come to terms they are in dire need and separated from God. thus have not repented. again there faith is in self.

then the last group, not only believes, but has faith in the work of Christ as the COMPLETED work of their salvation. Since nothing in their faith has anything to do with self. They can take no credit, no glory, or even boast of themselves. All they can do is do these things about God and his wonderful love.

but there are some who are so afraid to take any credit, they reject the fact we can even have 100 % faith in christ, and not take credit for anything. so thus we have what you just explained. a doctrine which makes no sense, and puts a bad light on Gods love.

psychomom · Jan 21, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

As for the first part. Amen. If she ever was, She still is. And yes, What comfort.

As for the second part. About Gods will? it is his will she come to him, Just like it was in Jesus day, when it was his will to take the children of Israel under his arms, as a mother hen gathers her chicks. But they were not willing. If she is not his, God has blessed her enough to put you in her life to show his true love, He wishes to adopt her also, and is giving her every change. If she ends up being separated from him in unbelief in eternity. it is not like God did not try, or did not will her to be separated for eternity. He still loved her more than enough, by placing you in her life!

I love you, EG. ♥

You really are the kindest man.

-ellie

Abiding · Jan 21, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Many believe, but only maybe 50 %, Then the other 50 % of their belief is in their works. thus they think you can be saved then lose it. So basically there faith is in their works.

Many believe, but have no faith. thus they keep living like they did, because they have never come to terms they are in dire need and separated from God. thus have not repented. again there faith is in self.

then the last group, not only believes, but has faith in the work of Christ as the COMPLETED work of their salvation. Since nothing in their faith has anything to do with self. They can take no credit, no glory, or even boast of themselves. All they can do is do these things about God and his wonderful love.

but there are some who are so afraid to take any credit, they reject the fact we can even have 100 % faith in christ, and not take credit for anything. so thus we have what you just explained. a doctrine which makes no sense, and puts a bad light on Gods love.

very nice did u have an english muffin with tasty jam this morning?

eternally-gratefull · Jan 21, 2013

Abiding said:

No, I could use one though. All I have had is coffee. Started work 3 hours early this morning.. Ughh!!

And thanks

Bookends · Jan 21, 2013

I love you all, the last posts on this page where very edifying and healed my broken knuckles. Thank you

eternally-gratefull · Jan 21, 2013

Bookends said:

It is nice to have brothers and sisters like we have here, who, although we disagree on some things, and beat each other over the head from time to time (although I wish abiding would stop using an aluminum baseball bat, My wife is complaining about the softball sized knots on my head!! ) We can still talk to each other with love, and help heal each others brokenness

unclefester · Jan 21, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen. In any case and whatever the case, to our God be all the glory in Christ.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 21, 2013

unclefester said:

Amen and Amen. That is why I am eternally-grateful to him! To God be the glory, great things HE has done!

Total Depravity vs. Freewill

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