The Problem with " saved by grace..."

Geometar · Jan 21, 2013

Salvation By Faith Alone Refuted - YouTube

Looks like good video.

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

One of the major ideals I've noticed taken on by Christians lately, is this idea of " saved by grace." It isn't so much that this is a false statement, because it's not, we are indeed saved by God's grace, however, a lot of people have totally misinterpreted what this really means, and it has become a justification for Christians leading non - Christian lives, as well as excusing themselves from following any of God's commandments regulated by the New Covenant, because they wholesomely believe there are no commandments to follow, because they are automatically guaranteed salvation by God's grace.

Do you even know what God's grace was?

~

Romans 6: 23

" For the wages of sin is death..."

Everyone on earth, has been placed here due to grievous sins / original sins as it is known. The wages of these original sins is death; thus those who do not come to be forgiven of these sins, face the wages which is the destruction of their souls - the 2nd death as the bible calls it.

According to this regulation God has in place, all men on the earth were to have died for the original sins committed. God cannot lie, nor can he betray his own commandment. This means that God cannot simply have just forgiven sins and brought the children back to heaven, or else it would have violated his own regulations about sin and death, which were established from the very beginning in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned and God told them they would die for it.

Having chosen sin, the rule is death.

Earth is a death sentence.

This is why the bible says that if one does not repent for sins and gain forgiveness, they die.

~

It was not until Jesus Christ came, that the forgiveness of sins could be had through his body and blood -

Ephesians 1:7

" In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins..."

This was the regulation of the New Covenant, and the only way those born under it ( our modern generation,) could receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life:

John 6:53

" Jesus said to them, " I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life..."

Pretty straight forward yes?

Ephesians 1: 7

"...in accordance with the riches of God's grace."

God's grace was the gift of the reality of gaining the forgiveness of sins; as in making that even a choice for us to choose.

It in turn, was not that Jesus died on the cross and suddenly all sins of everyone who says they believe were wiped clean, and it is a " get in free pass," to heaven. There is work to be done to even have this gift of grace bestowed on one.

Just looking at what " grace " is - it's a free gift someone gave out of the kindness of their heart;

God did not have to do this. Think about it;

God stepped off his glorious heavenly throne, made himself lower than the angels, was beaten, bloodied, spat on, mocked - by the very people he came down to save, and then was nailed to a cross.

Who in the heck would go through all that? Especially the King of the universe? What are we to him but disobedient sinners deserving of death?

This was God's grace. His free gift was conquering death so that we may have life, which he 100% didn't have to do.

~

As far as grace being bestowed on one - Jesus Christ left a Covenant - the New Covenant.

A covenant is a sacred promise between God and his people; a promise however, is not a one way deal. When you promise someone, its on terms. Whether it's, " I promise to pay you back IF you loan me this money." or " I promise to love and cherish you forever IF we are to be married."

There are terms.

The New Covenant has a law; except this law will be written on the hearts of God's people. Any Christian whom says there is no law under the new covenant, that it was abolished, or there are no regulations to follow - clearly does not have the law written in their hearts.

For the New Covenant to not have any law, is to violate the workings of faith and order God established from the very beginning for his people.

Recognizing this law is also what ultimately separates God's people from everyone else; because only they will come to harbor it in their hearts.

~

Lets look at the world around us; no one even really knows what the commandments of the New Covenant is - even blowing off the biggest commandment that grants eternal life - the breaking of bread and sharing of wine - the Passover.

As God gave the commandments to Moses in the OT, God also gave the commandments as Jesus in the NT.

Jesus's own words:

John 14:15

" If you love me, you will obey what I command."

John 14: 21

" Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me."

The New Covenant was a regulation to God's people; if you believe in the New Covenant promise, then you must also believe in Jesus Christ; and if Jesus Christ says that one who loves God truly is to follow his commands...then why do some believe there are not commands to be followed?

I've seen people on here ridiculed for expressing that there are indeed commands to be followed, by people responding with a " so long as you believe Jesus Christ is you savior..."

If you believe Jesus Christ is your savior, you'll do what your savior told you to do.

Keep his commands and honor his covenant.

~

Father is a very loving spirit, but Father is also just and almighty. If his word is law, and you ignore aspects such as these of his word, then you will receive according to Father's justice. This is why the bible talks about the Christians who honor God with their lips but not with their hearts; because they fail to keep God's commandments which lead to idolatry, sin, and following the traditions of man, and not those of God.

You can see this quite obviously in the world these days - for a lot of " Christian" traditions, are not Christian at all, and were in fact, put in place by Popes and church authorities. Mere men.

Some Christians for some reason believe they are just guranteed heaven, yet when put on the spot, they can't give you a straight answer about God's commands; how can one know they are justified before God, if they don't even know where they really stand with God?

Cherry picking their bible verses to suit their daily lives, yet ignoring anything and everything in the bible that will hold them accountable.

I guess. But God's word is law, and if you're breaking it, by his law you will be punished.

This is why I stress about what is truly God's law for us, and what is but the laws given by false prophets?

Because those who follow that of false prophets, will be condemned along with the false prophets.

(There is a passage in the bible in which men are instructed to kill all those who didn't have a mark placed on them; this was in reference to those who fail to receive the mark of God which is given by honoring the New Covenant; even the men who believed in God were killed because they did not keep his regulations.)

If you truly don't know the answer of your faith, the truth to your grace - I would start praying because our very souls are at stake.

The devil is quite the deceptive spirit, and this is why the bible constantly tells believers to push for understanding of God, for this is what will reveal falsehood...

Paul goes WAAYYY deep into this subject. 'Am I good, am I bad? What's the difference? How am I saved?'

The jist is, that when we realise what Jesus has actually given us freely, it frees us. But read on to the parts about immortality and life with God, then we see that sin is just pointless.

When we realise the true grace of God, we say 'God, you deserve better'.

Basically. But obviously, a good thorough reading of Paul would be better. Go check for yourselves

loveme1 · Jan 21, 2013

No problem with saved by Grace when it produces Love and Gratitude.

Indeed he deserves better than any of us could offer.

When we know that we are sanctified by the High Priest:

Hebrews 10

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Matthew 6

PS · Jan 21, 2013

Geometar said:

The suggestion that works play any part at all in our salvation is easily refuted When we consider scripture tells us we are predestined "Not according to our works" but "Before the world began" and "Before we were born."

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began;

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

PS said:

this is it exactly. We were all destined to be saved. Even though we are sinners.

And it makes a person say 'wow, God, really? you deserve better'.

We all have the touchstone to look forward to anyway. The revealing of the heart's purposes.

But the point is, it serves a person better to try to live a life for God, because he loves us so much that he destined us to life. it's like 'wow ... but I don't deserve that ... '

mark54 · Jan 21, 2013

Geometar said:

Can you give me a rough idea of how many works a person needs to do to attain Heaven?

One a day, two, five?
Or do we work it out over a longer period?
How will I know if I have done enough works to enter Heaven?
Can I ever be sure I've done enough?
Is there a way to work it out mathmatically?

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

mark54 said:

No one need do anything, technically, to enter heaven.

Where does the judgement take place? and as in Paul's writings, are we mortal or immortal when it happens?

So ... all will be before God's judgement seat. Where is God's judgement seat? either metaphorically or literally?

PS · Jan 21, 2013

sabaqtani7 said:

You and I agree.

Suppose for argument sake that faith and believing in God are not works like shopping, cooking and looking after the sick and infirm, then the verse that says we are not saved by "works" is correct.

What do you think?

zone · Jan 21, 2013

mark54 said:

hmm....well, start with...

insisting on asceticism and worship of angels. then go on in detail about visions and stuff.

Russian patriarch red-faced over miracle of ‘disappearing’ £20,000 watch

Russian patriarch red-faced over miracle of < click

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

This is true, no-matter what denomination.

If you believe that people burn eternal, then all must be made immortal in order to burn eternal, no?

Similarly with eternal life, all must be made immortal. So whether you believe your are to hell, or to heaven, all are made eternal and brought before God's judgement seat.

For no flesh will inherit the Kingdom of God.

So then none of us, in flesh, will inherit life eternal. 'All fall short of the glory of God'.

It is rather about 'the purposes of the heart' which are revealed.

I am baptizing you in water for repentance, but he who comes after me is mightier than I, for I am not worthy to pick up his sandals; he is to baptize you in The Spirit of Holiness and in fire.” 12“For the winnowing fan is in his hand and he purges his threshing floor, and he gathers the wheat into his barns, and the chaff he will burn in fire that is not extinguished.”

Jesus didn't just die for sin. He'll be the one burning it up.

rauleetoe · Jan 21, 2013

loveme1 said:

The problem with this is it sounds like mere lip service to God..I can say to my wife(if i was married) i love you and i appreciate you, but if i never truly show her with my actions and devotion to her that i really truly am sincere, guess what..i contradict myself.

rauleetoe · Jan 21, 2013

mark54 said:

Oh ok..so we should sin to our hearts content and only appeal to grace and make a mockery of God? Is that your option? What do you suggest? Cheap grace? If so, I am not buying..

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

PS said:

Well, that depends on what we're saved from.

If we are saved 'from eternal torment' by our faith, then doesn't that predestine many who never had the Kingdom of God 'revealed to them' in this life, unto an eternal torment?

But suppose instead that our works are not for 'a place in heaven', but rather, 'because God loved me, so I shall love my brother', then our desire to do work, does save us in a way. Because it takes us away from 'me, me me'. 'MY place in heaven. MY reward'.

But then if we take what the verse says, that God has predestined us (humanity) to life, and as John says, that Jesus died for 'all sin', then it is true nomatter what way we take the word 'works'. We are saved no-matter what, by Christ. Whom all shall come to know. So then it is fulfilled that we 'humanity' are predestined to being saved 'through Christ'.

And that in itself is a grace worth honouring by good work, is it not?

For it is God's will that all have life'.

and who does the will of the father? Also, who is judgement handed to?

Who burns up the chaff and stores the grain? And who is it that we must 'go through' in order to get to God, either in this life, or as 'being saved only through the fire'?

So then, works are things of which God simply approves. FOR LOOK WHAT GOOD WORK HE HAS DONE FOR US!

God IS love.

homwardbound · Jan 21, 2013

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

John 1:17For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Matthew 22:35-41

New King James Version (NKJV)

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

You said that no one knows the commandments written on the hearts that belong to God. It is written above two commandments which are writtenon my heart and all believers' hearts these two are the fullfillment of the Lawand prophets. It is love that goes on forever at the end of 1 Cor. 13, all else will pass away.
Now onlyone receives these two laws of LOVE through trust (faith) in Christ first his finished work of fullfilling the law amd prophets as he claim to come and do in Matt 5:17 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Then he went out and prooved that his Father sent him through the miracles he did. Then he went to the cross and right before he gave up the Ghost he cried out IT IS FINISHED.
SO DID CHRIST FULLFILL THE LAW AND PROPHETS IN JOHN 19:30 IS WHERE HE CLAIMNED IT IS FINISHED AND DIED.
GUESS WHAT HAPENED AT HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS? READ IT HEBREWS 9:15-17
Hebrews 9:15-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
The Mediator’s Death Necessary

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
WE ARE UNDER A NEW COVENANT TODAY WHERE GOD HAS WRITTENON THE HEART OF THE BELIEVER TO LOVE AS CHRIST LOVED. THOSE TWO LAWS THAT ARE THE GREATEST OF THE COMMANDMENTS ARE WRITTEN ON THE BELIEVER'S HEART THE DAY WE FIREST BELIEVED FOR THE HOLY GHOST CAME TO LIVE IN THEONE THAT BELIEVES AS PER EPHESIANS 1:13.
TODAY IT IS UP TO US TO SEEK OUT TRUTH IN GOD THE SON, GOD THE HOLY GHOST AND GOD THE FATHER. ONCE ONE BELEIVES THEY ARE SET FREE LEARNING TO LIVE BY FAITH IN THE LIVING GOD, OFR THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH AND IN THIS FAITH TO GOD THEY WILL LOVE ALL NOT JUST THOSE THAT LOVE THEM AS THE HEATHEN DO, BUT ALL AS GOD HAS ALREADY DONE UNCONDITIONALLY THROUGH THE CROSS OF HIS SON. jESUS ADDED TO HIS COMMANDMENT AND SAID BETTER THAN LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS i (JESUS) HAVE LOIVED YOU.

SO GUESS WHAT YOU, I OR ANYONE WILL ONLY LOVE ACCPORDING TO HOW ONE BELIEVES THEY ARE LOVED, AND WILL ONLY FORGIVE AS ONE BELIEVES THEY ARE FORGIVEN PERIOD IS THIS TRUE?
BEFORE THE CROSS UNDER THE OLD COVENANT, WE HAD TO FORGIVE IN ORDER TO GET FORGIVEN, AND LOVE IN ORDER TO BVE LOVED, VERY STRESSFUL SECOND GUESSING AND BECAUSE OIF THIS WE ALL ARE FIGHTING AND ARGUING TRYING TO BE ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED.
UNDER THIS NEW COVENANT THE BELIEVER LOVE'S BECAUSE HE/SHE IS ALREADY PAST TENSE LOVED BY GOD THE FATHER OF CHRIST, AND FORGIVES ALL BECAUSE HE/SHE IS FORGIVEN ALL. WE ARE THE RESPONDERS UNDER THE NEW COVENAT TO GOD THE FATHER, GOD IS THE INITIATOR. WHEN UNDER THE OLD COVENANT WE ARE THE INITIATORS TRYINGT O GET GOD TO RSPOND TO US BY WHAT WE DO. GOD IS THE CREATOR WE ARE THE CREATION. SO TODAY I CHOOSE TO RESPOND TO GOD THE CREATOR UNDER THE NEW COVENANT THANKING GOD FORTHIS WONDERFUL MERCY HE HAS BESTOWED UPON US ALL JUST NOT ALL HAVE RECEIVED THIS YET TODAY AND GOD IS PATIENTLY WAITING FOR ALL THOSE THAT HAVE NOT YET COME TO BELIEF IN HIM
Hebrews 10:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

PS · Jan 21, 2013

sabaqtani7 said:

Well, that depends on what we're saved from.

If we are saved 'from eternal torment' by our faith, then doesn't that predestine many who never had the Kingdom of God 'revealed to them' in this life, unto an eternal torment?

But suppose instead that our works are not for 'a place in heaven', but rather, 'because God loved me, so I shall love my brother', then our desire to do work, does save us in a way. Because it takes us away from 'me, me me'. 'MY place in heaven. MY reward'.

But then if we take what the verse says, that God has predestined us (humanity) to life, and as John says, that Jesus died for 'all sin', then it is true nomatter what way we take the word 'works'. We are saved no-matter what, by Christ. Whom all shall come to know. So then it is fulfilled that we are predestined to being saved 'through Christ'.

And that in itself is a grace worth honouring by good work, is it not?

For it is God's will that all have life'.

and who does the will of the father? Also, who is judgement handed to?

Who burns up the chaff and stores the grain? And who is it that we must 'go through' in order to get to God, either in this life, or as 'being saved only through the fire'?

So then, works are things of which God simply approves. FOR LOOK WHAT GOOD WORK HE HAS DONE FOR US!

God IS love.

I'm thinking it is God's plan, purpose and desire that all are saved and indeed were predestined for salvation, but sin separates us and what brings us together is that we believe in Him, repent of our sins and accept His free gift of salvation.

'

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

PS said:

That's correct.

It brings us into 'the Kingdom of God', a la peace love and joy.

It brings us closer to God. Like a bad son turned to a good son, for the sake of His father and his brothers.

And that some sons will stay 'prodigal' until the time of the great 'restitution of all things' that revelation speaks of.

zone · Jan 21, 2013

sabaqtani7 said:

This is true, no-matter what denomination.

If you believe that people burn eternal, then all must be made immortal in order to burn eternal, no?

Similarly with eternal life, all must be made immortal. So whether you believe your are to hell, or to heaven, all are made eternal and brought before God's judgement seat.

For no flesh will inherit the Kingdom of God.

So then none of us, in flesh, will inherit life eternal. 'All fall short of the glory of God'.

It is rather about 'the purposes of the heart' which are revealed.

I am baptizing you in water for repentance, but he who comes after me is mightier than I, for I am not worthy to pick up his sandals; he is to baptize you in The Spirit of Holiness and in fire.” 12“For the winnowing fan is in his hand and he purges his threshing floor, and he gathers the wheat into his barns, and the chaff he will burn in fire that is not extinguished.”

Jesus didn't just die for sin. He'll be the one burning it up.

"i'm a universalist and i'm okay"

PS · Jan 21, 2013

sabaqtani7 said:

That's right.

Now if it was God's plan and purpose that all are saved, then predestination is correct because we are all predestined for Glory, but unfortunately for many, unrepented sin comes between us and God?

mark54 · Jan 21, 2013

rauleetoe said:

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their heart and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

You see Raul, I can't see Christianity like you do.
I became a Christian, and I was convicterd of my sin, because the good asnd Holy laws of God were written on my heart, they were internal to me, not external. I wanted so much to live as God wanted, I had to, God, through the Spirit had softenedv my heart as Ezekiel foresore, but I couldn't live up to his standards according to the law/Christ's teachings. I read the beatitudes you know, and I knew how far short I fell. What can I do? I want to please God, I want to live as He wants me to live, but I am in sinful flesh, I am miserable because of my faliures, crushed./If I am to look to the law/commandments how can I go on as a Christian? I cannot measure up to Christ's literal commands, I must be condemned!

But then I look to Jesus, my only hope. I kneel beside my bed, raise my arms in the air and praise him that he died for all my shortcomings. And I have to cling to him and look to him, because if I don't, being honest in my estimate of myself I'll have to give up with God, crushed because I cannot live up to what the law/commandemnts require
And you know, the more I keep looking to Christ, the more I change, slowly, not dramatically all at once, like some believe they do, I often take two steps forward and one step back, but God loves me so much, he puts up with all of that, because he sees what His son did for me on the cross, not my imperfections which I am so acutely aware of.

sabaqtani7 · Jan 21, 2013

zone said:

You know what Zone, it says more about your heart than mine, that you cannot be content living a life for our God which pleases him, that you must continually dismiss and evade any form of opinion of your own, for the sake of stamping on others'.

I am glad you'll be in heaven though, just as you believe you will, and that the purpose of your heart will be revealed to you. Because God is the only person with enough power to give you the insight you require.

The Problem with " saved by grace..."

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