Total Depravity vs. Freewill
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The Natural Depravity of man !
Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
What is the carnal mind ? It is simply man by nature. Remember Paul said of himself by nature Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Thats the Truth of all men by nature, sold under sin ! Another way of saying it is that by nature we are servants or slaves to sin ! Jn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:16-17
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
We are by nature devoted to sin ! We are entirely under the control and love to sinning.
This is so to the degree that by nature, our mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7
This enmity means hating and opposing. Also notice about the carnal mind, it is not subject to the Law of God, and neither indeed can be ! Just forget about it. Now what is the Law of God here ? We know that the Law is Spiritual Rom 7:14. The word Law is the Greek word nomos:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
The Law of God in its simplest, is any command of God, rule of action prescribed by God and reason, a precept or injunction.
A precept means:
a commandment or direction given as a rule of action or conduct.
A Injunction is:
a judicial process or order requiring the person or persons to whom it is directed to do a particular act or to refrain from doing a particular act.
Now understand this, Believing on Christ for Salvation is a Command of God, a Precept, a rule of action !
How do we know its a Commandment and therefore a Law of God ? 1 Jn 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
The word commandment here is the greek word entolē:
an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
2) a commandment
a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
And we know John is speaking about ones initial belief in Christ and not an ongoing believing because the greek word for believe is in the aorist tense, which is usually is a one point in time action !
In fact Paul uses the same tense when commanding or giving the imperative to believe to the Jailor Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Here the word is an aorist imperative ! The Imperative also means:
The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.
Now, according to Rom 8:7-8, the Natural man is not subject to any command or law of God, which to Believe on Christ for Salvation is ! And its also a Believing from or with the Heart as Per Acts 8:37 and Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For [B]with the heart man believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Now the problem most religionists are going to have is this . The Heart contains the Mind, for the greek word for Heart is kardia:
lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
And what does the scripture say about the carnal Mind ? Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So How can a carnal Mind Person, one merely born of the Flesh ,obey the Command to Believe on Christ for Salvation when scripture says that it cannot do it ? If a man cannot do it while in the flesh, then it can only be done after he is made spiritual by New Birth, and so the Natural Depravity of man, that he cannot believe on Christ for Salvation because its a Commandment, a Law of God to do so !
Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
What is the carnal mind ? It is simply man by nature. Remember Paul said of himself by nature Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Thats the Truth of all men by nature, sold under sin ! Another way of saying it is that by nature we are servants or slaves to sin ! Jn 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:16-17
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
We are by nature devoted to sin ! We are entirely under the control and love to sinning.
This is so to the degree that by nature, our mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7
This enmity means hating and opposing. Also notice about the carnal mind, it is not subject to the Law of God, and neither indeed can be ! Just forget about it. Now what is the Law of God here ? We know that the Law is Spiritual Rom 7:14. The word Law is the Greek word nomos:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
The Law of God in its simplest, is any command of God, rule of action prescribed by God and reason, a precept or injunction.
A precept means:
a commandment or direction given as a rule of action or conduct.
A Injunction is:
a judicial process or order requiring the person or persons to whom it is directed to do a particular act or to refrain from doing a particular act.
Now understand this, Believing on Christ for Salvation is a Command of God, a Precept, a rule of action !
How do we know its a Commandment and therefore a Law of God ? 1 Jn 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
The word commandment here is the greek word entolē:
an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
2) a commandment
a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
And we know John is speaking about ones initial belief in Christ and not an ongoing believing because the greek word for believe is in the aorist tense, which is usually is a one point in time action !
In fact Paul uses the same tense when commanding or giving the imperative to believe to the Jailor Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Here the word is an aorist imperative ! The Imperative also means:
The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.
Now, according to Rom 8:7-8, the Natural man is not subject to any command or law of God, which to Believe on Christ for Salvation is ! And its also a Believing from or with the Heart as Per Acts 8:37 and Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For [B]with the heart man believeth unto righteousness[/b]; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Now the problem most religionists are going to have is this . The Heart contains the Mind, for the greek word for Heart is kardia:
lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.
And what does the scripture say about the carnal Mind ? Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So How can a carnal Mind Person, one merely born of the Flesh ,obey the Command to Believe on Christ for Salvation when scripture says that it cannot do it ? If a man cannot do it while in the flesh, then it can only be done after he is made spiritual by New Birth, and so the Natural Depravity of man, that he cannot believe on Christ for Salvation because its a Commandment, a Law of God to do so !
A
i'll read it abiding
Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
1 Corinthians 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
1tim 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
john 3:20 For everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
2thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Psalm 79:6 Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the kingdoms that do not call on your name;
matt 23:33“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Maybe i should just give a link to a bible.
R
What i find is most calvinists, be they moderate,high,or hyper calvinist..all believe and adhere to double predestination. What i discovered today, is that the word predestinated/predestinate is only mentioned several times in the Bible, according to my crudens concordance,
predestinate-
Romans 8:29&30
predestinated-ephesians 1:5&11
On both of these instances we can see a 'single predestination' if one must insinuate that, a predestination of those whom God foreknew would accept him,and believe in his son..those and all those were made children of God.
And the same goes for ephesians 1..
thank you abiding.
yep. that's what those passages say, for certain.
this is most certainly true
i know you don't believe God had to learn anything about us (corridors of time).
but i don't see anywhere that Paul chose Jesus. do you?
if i could find that it would help.
can we say that Paul loved God, per 8:28 and that is why he was called and chosen and appointed [set apart from his mother's womb]?
i shortened this up some.
yep. that's what those passages say, for certain.
this is most certainly true
i know you don't believe God had to learn anything about us (corridors of time).
but i don't see anywhere that Paul chose Jesus. do you?
if i could find that it would help.
can we say that Paul loved God, per 8:28 and that is why he was called and chosen and appointed [set apart from his mother's womb]?
i shortened this up some.
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A
Look over the intent....its the finished work that was predestined, not our salvation.
Although we still were foreknown and had our names in the book of life. And Jesus
knew who were His and not one will be lost, and we are the elect. I go a different direction
with all that. Then some. Why? the bible made me do it
Although we still were foreknown and had our names in the book of life. And Jesus
knew who were His and not one will be lost, and we are the elect. I go a different direction
with all that. Then some. Why? the bible made me do it
R
Look over the intent....its the finished work that was predestined, not our salvation.
Although we still were foreknown and had our names in the book of life. And Jesus
knew who were His and not one will be lost, and we are the elect. I go a different direction
with all that. Then some. Why? the bible made me do it
Although we still were foreknown and had our names in the book of life. And Jesus
knew who were His and not one will be lost, and we are the elect. I go a different direction
with all that. Then some. Why? the bible made me do it
Well i just see more of a scriptural backing for in one must say its a doctrine of 'predestination' then I say as Roger E Olson said, Yes to single predestination, no to double predesination. If we must have a doctrine regarding this..
Look over the intent....its the finished work that was predestined, not our salvation.
Although we still were foreknown and had our names in the book of life. And Jesus
knew who were His and not one will be lost, and we are the elect. I go a different direction
with all that. Then some. Why? the bible made me do it
Although we still were foreknown and had our names in the book of life. And Jesus
knew who were His and not one will be lost, and we are the elect. I go a different direction
with all that. Then some. Why? the bible made me do it
if the elect were foreknown; with their names in the Book of Life; and Jesus knew who were His; and He came and Finished the predestined work of redemption....how was the salvation of the elect not predestined?
[optional question: were they foreknown because God knew they would choose him?]
please bear with me just a little longer.
i want to understand what you are saying.
love zone
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When we were without Strength !
Rom 5:6
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Who are the We here ? Why its Believers, which are Christ's Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. And Sheep and Elect are identical !
And so Paul says that when they believers or Elect or Sheep were without strength ! Christ died for the Ungodly, that being them as they were Ungodly and without Strength.
Now the word strength here of which they were without is the greek word asthenēs and means:
weak, infirm, feeble
Its also means impotent as in Acts 4:9
In Rom 5:6 the word denotes our inability spiritually ! Our impotent spiritually !
The inability of us to do anything that brings about Eternal Salvation !
Man by Nature, even the Elect, is without any Spiritual Ability towards God See Rom 3:10-18.
Man by Nature has no ability to believe, no ability to repent [godly], nor to in faith call upon the Name of the Lord, none at all, but yet 99.99% of organized religion do not believe they're without strength or ability to believe, which also is in opposition to such scripture as Jn 12:39
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Could not here is made up of Two words in the original which are dynamai:
to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
And the word ou a particle which means:
no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
And simply means they did not have the ability to believe on Christ
They did not have that ability to have that state of mind. No Freewill to believe ! Remember Paul wrote of the carnal Mind Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Again, 99.99 % of all organized religion today would disagree here and state that men by nature in the flesh of their natural birth can please God ! Many delusively believe they please God in their flesh by exercising their own faith Heb 11:6 !
But those of us whow God, we know that we were without any ability to spiritually please God in the Flesh or by nature.
Rom 5:6
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Who are the We here ? Why its Believers, which are Christ's Sheep Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. And Sheep and Elect are identical !
And so Paul says that when they believers or Elect or Sheep were without strength ! Christ died for the Ungodly, that being them as they were Ungodly and without Strength.
Now the word strength here of which they were without is the greek word asthenēs and means:
weak, infirm, feeble
Its also means impotent as in Acts 4:9
In Rom 5:6 the word denotes our inability spiritually ! Our impotent spiritually !
The inability of us to do anything that brings about Eternal Salvation !
Man by Nature, even the Elect, is without any Spiritual Ability towards God See Rom 3:10-18.
Man by Nature has no ability to believe, no ability to repent [godly], nor to in faith call upon the Name of the Lord, none at all, but yet 99.99% of organized religion do not believe they're without strength or ability to believe, which also is in opposition to such scripture as Jn 12:39
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Could not here is made up of Two words in the original which are dynamai:
to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
And the word ou a particle which means:
no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
And simply means they did not have the ability to believe on Christ
They did not have that ability to have that state of mind. No Freewill to believe ! Remember Paul wrote of the carnal Mind Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Again, 99.99 % of all organized religion today would disagree here and state that men by nature in the flesh of their natural birth can please God ! Many delusively believe they please God in their flesh by exercising their own faith Heb 11:6 !
But those of us whow God, we know that we were without any ability to spiritually please God in the Flesh or by nature.
A
thank you abiding.
yep. that's what those passages say, for certain.
this is most certainly true
i know you don't believe God had to learn anything about us (corridors of time).
but i don't see anywhere that Paul chose Jesus. do you?
if i could find that it would help.
can we say that Paul loved God, per 8:28 and that is why he was called and chosen and appointed [set apart from his mother's womb]?
i shortened this up some.
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zone, your right "aw pink: the attributes of God" read that several times.
Of coarse Paul made a choice. Although his evangelist was a tad brutal
So was Johnathan Edwards at times.
And yes i understand he was a chosen vessel from the womb, doesnt
mean he didnt choose. He asked politely who knocked him on his back.
Jesus told Him who, Paul believed and there you go.
Now of coarse i didnt see this question coming and just winged it i do
know Paul gave his testimony a few times and made mention of it here
and there that a person could prolly glean more.
God has chosen, elected, nations, certain people for different purposes.
And that He saves all who believe. We cant run all the terms together.
And words change somewhat according to context.
Inclusive statements:
II Corinthians 5.7 - …For we walk by faith and not by sight.
Paul said – “We are hard pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed – And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed and therefore I spoke’, we also BELIEVE and therefore speak, knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus...” (II Cor. 4.8-9, 13-16) -
“THEREFORE WE DO NOT LOSE HEART, even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, WHILE WE DO NOT LOOK AT THE THINGS WHICH ARE SEEN, but at the things which are NOT SEEN. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are NOT SEEN are ETERNAL.”
The Apostle Paul said – “Even in all the things I have suffered and endured, I am still not ashamed and have no regrets, because I know in whom I have BELIEVED and I am positively persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until the day of His return.” 2 time 1:12
I know i could also list dozens of verses that God chooses which He does.
Does it work out that we dont also choose(rather respond)? nope
And i dont care to understand it i just believe it.
And leave the dancing to others.
yep. that's what those passages say, for certain.
this is most certainly true
i know you don't believe God had to learn anything about us (corridors of time).
but i don't see anywhere that Paul chose Jesus. do you?
if i could find that it would help.
can we say that Paul loved God, per 8:28 and that is why he was called and chosen and appointed [set apart from his mother's womb]?
i shortened this up some.
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
```````````````
zone, your right "aw pink: the attributes of God" read that several times.
Of coarse Paul made a choice. Although his evangelist was a tad brutal
So was Johnathan Edwards at times.
And yes i understand he was a chosen vessel from the womb, doesnt
mean he didnt choose. He asked politely who knocked him on his back.
Jesus told Him who, Paul believed and there you go.
Now of coarse i didnt see this question coming and just winged it i do
know Paul gave his testimony a few times and made mention of it here
and there that a person could prolly glean more.
God has chosen, elected, nations, certain people for different purposes.
And that He saves all who believe. We cant run all the terms together.
And words change somewhat according to context.
Inclusive statements:
II Corinthians 5.7 - …For we walk by faith and not by sight.
Paul said – “We are hard pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed – And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed and therefore I spoke’, we also BELIEVE and therefore speak, knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus...” (II Cor. 4.8-9, 13-16) -
“THEREFORE WE DO NOT LOSE HEART, even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, WHILE WE DO NOT LOOK AT THE THINGS WHICH ARE SEEN, but at the things which are NOT SEEN. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are NOT SEEN are ETERNAL.”
The Apostle Paul said – “Even in all the things I have suffered and endured, I am still not ashamed and have no regrets, because I know in whom I have BELIEVED and I am positively persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until the day of His return.” 2 time 1:12
I know i could also list dozens of verses that God chooses which He does.
Does it work out that we dont also choose(rather respond)? nope
And i dont care to understand it i just believe it.
And leave the dancing to others.
A
Go easy on me dear, this is my first fencing fight wit ya. Wait 2nd. First time was the day we met.
baptism in fire...i whipped ya good on that one.....opps excuse me...ok i was daydreaming there.
First i dont know how to react to the "if" the elect were foreknown. And not even sure how you
define "elect" and how that would differ from remnant. So hmmm. This is clumsy for me.
I think if we were in agreement on terms which we are not id say. According to the text that since
our predestination is for our being conformed into the image of His Son(Oh what a great Salvation)
That doesnt at all make it necessary to have our Salvation Predestined. And i say that to keep
myself from causing a inference that may lead to a false conclusion. Because then you get into
God causes some to believe and others not. Even tho all that do were drawn and well as those who
were drawn and refused
Nope id say no on there salvation being predestined and use the word the Holyspirit used "foreknown"
Hope thats a bit understandable.
baptism in fire...i whipped ya good on that one.....opps excuse me...ok i was daydreaming there.
First i dont know how to react to the "if" the elect were foreknown. And not even sure how you
define "elect" and how that would differ from remnant. So hmmm. This is clumsy for me.
I think if we were in agreement on terms which we are not id say. According to the text that since
our predestination is for our being conformed into the image of His Son(Oh what a great Salvation)
That doesnt at all make it necessary to have our Salvation Predestined. And i say that to keep
myself from causing a inference that may lead to a false conclusion. Because then you get into
God causes some to believe and others not. Even tho all that do were drawn and well as those who
were drawn and refused
Nope id say no on there salvation being predestined and use the word the Holyspirit used "foreknown"
Hope thats a bit understandable.
A
okay. i read your post a couple of times. i just snipped to keep things short
i agree that we respond. i know that.
i don't subscribe to the robot theory.
ya. i just believe it all too.
but i kinda keep trying to understand.
dunno why.
k....nite
i agree that we respond. i know that.
i don't subscribe to the robot theory.
ya. i just believe it all too.
but i kinda keep trying to understand.
dunno why.
k....nite
u dont need that much.
Sorry to snip your post, it was quite good btw.
To answer your question I would say that it is in the power of the Gospel (Rom 1:17) that when heard quickens to life God's elect when and where God chooses. Yes, man chooses but only as the Gospel does it's quickening work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit. It's totally unfair to call this 'freewill' since the will of the soon-to-be convert was dead set against the things of God (as in the case of Paul) until life is breathed into the elect.
When freewill is entered into the equation then you have pride as in "why can't they just believe? after all I did".
No, the only reason you believed was not due to your free choice, it was due to the power of God inherent in the Gospel opening and taking off the scales from your eyes.
To answer your question I would say that it is in the power of the Gospel (Rom 1:17) that when heard quickens to life God's elect when and where God chooses. Yes, man chooses but only as the Gospel does it's quickening work in conjunction with the Holy Spirit. It's totally unfair to call this 'freewill' since the will of the soon-to-be convert was dead set against the things of God (as in the case of Paul) until life is breathed into the elect.
When freewill is entered into the equation then you have pride as in "why can't they just believe? after all I did".
No, the only reason you believed was not due to your free choice, it was due to the power of God inherent in the Gospel opening and taking off the scales from your eyes.
