Total Depravity vs. Freewill
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But there is no hearing without Life ! One must be of God to be hearing God's Words which the Gospel is. Jesus said once to these jews Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The hearing is spiritual, for they did hear physically !
But there is no hearing without Life ! One must be of God to be hearing God's Words which the Gospel is. Jesus said once to these jews Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The hearing is spiritual, for they did hear physically !
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
There is no Life / Light. without His Word or how does one who is dead in sin spiritually hear His Word ?
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
There is no Life / Light. without His Word or how does one who is dead in sin spiritually hear His Word ?
E
More importantly. And the main cause for confusion in this issue. Is how can one be born of God still be guilty of the thing which makes one dead (sin) because until Justification occurs. One would still be in sin..
So this begs the question..
How does one hear who is dead in sin?
How is one justified without hearing?
How is one who is made alive still dead in sin?
How is one who is not yet Justified made alive in Christ.?
Thus we see the major issues brought about by certain beliefs. the are circular and can nto answer the proper questions, in fact they lead to more questions.
So this begs the question..
How does one hear who is dead in sin?
How is one justified without hearing?
How is one who is made alive still dead in sin?
How is one who is not yet Justified made alive in Christ.?
Thus we see the major issues brought about by certain beliefs. the are circular and can nto answer the proper questions, in fact they lead to more questions.
E
Does man have free will to refuse to do something God commands them to do. And can God show mercy even when they do?
Ex 4: 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."
God gives moses a command, HIS WILL
13 But he said, “Oh, my Lord, please send someone else."
Moses goes against Gods will, and inserts his will. He is afraid to do it, Thus he does not wish to follow Gods command.
Gods answer.
14 Then the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses
so what did God do?
1. God inserts his will anyway, and Moses does what God wills
2. Fire shoots out of the bush, and incinerates moses in an instant.
3. Fire shoots out of the bush and Knocks Moses on his keester, God says, "any questions? you still going to refuse to do my will?
4. An angry, but merciful God provides another way
and he said, “Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well. Behold, he is coming out to meet you, and when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.
So much for God making controlling a man so much he will do what God commands no matter what
So much for man's will thwarting Gods soverignty. God knew Moses would do this, and had already set things in Motion, Where Moses can still do what God said, although in a different capacity, Arron is already on his way, before God even spoke to moses.
so much for the belief Gods soverignty is not based on his foreknowledge of how man will react, or what he will or will not believe!
Ex 4: 12 Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."
God gives moses a command, HIS WILL
13 But he said, “Oh, my Lord, please send someone else."
Moses goes against Gods will, and inserts his will. He is afraid to do it, Thus he does not wish to follow Gods command.
Gods answer.
14 Then the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses
so what did God do?
1. God inserts his will anyway, and Moses does what God wills
2. Fire shoots out of the bush, and incinerates moses in an instant.
3. Fire shoots out of the bush and Knocks Moses on his keester, God says, "any questions? you still going to refuse to do my will?
4. An angry, but merciful God provides another way
and he said, “Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well. Behold, he is coming out to meet you, and when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart.
So much for God making controlling a man so much he will do what God commands no matter what
So much for man's will thwarting Gods soverignty. God knew Moses would do this, and had already set things in Motion, Where Moses can still do what God said, although in a different capacity, Arron is already on his way, before God even spoke to moses.
so much for the belief Gods soverignty is not based on his foreknowledge of how man will react, or what he will or will not believe!
E
I am speaking of spiritual death vs spiritual life. I am not sure how you came up with this conclusion of what I was saying
Thats good, and this is what scripture says.
again agreed. so how can one be made alive (born again or regenerate) before they are justified by faith?
not sure what you mean here, so need more clarification before I respond.
Thats good, and this is what scripture says.
again agreed. so how can one be made alive (born again or regenerate) before they are justified by faith?
not sure what you mean here, so need more clarification before I respond.
hi EG
why do we have to have this automaton/robot strawman?
like.....in the long run, what's the diff?
if God already knew Moses would shirk, and had Plan B anyway...really. what's the diff?
EG...just cuz you made a proposition about how it went (based on your own thinking), doesn't mean foreknowledge means what you say it does. it might...but how can we be so adamant?
even if it did, you STILL have God being....whatever diggsy said yesterday - a good Guesser
your way kinda seems like it has God toying with Moses even AFTER he knew Moses would shirk (?)
a long hall of mirrors to let us refuse to do stuff!
i love ya tho.
(ps: Daniel 9 is fulfilled)
BOOKENDS! can i borrow your horse?
why do we have to have this automaton/robot strawman?
like.....in the long run, what's the diff?
if God already knew Moses would shirk, and had Plan B anyway...really. what's the diff?
EG...just cuz you made a proposition about how it went (based on your own thinking), doesn't mean foreknowledge means what you say it does. it might...but how can we be so adamant?
even if it did, you STILL have God being....whatever diggsy said yesterday - a good Guesser
your way kinda seems like it has God toying with Moses even AFTER he knew Moses would shirk (?)
a long hall of mirrors to let us refuse to do stuff!
i love ya tho.
(ps: Daniel 9 is fulfilled)
BOOKENDS! can i borrow your horse?
E
hi EG
why do we have to have this automaton/robot strawman?
why do we have to have this automaton/robot strawman?
Because true calvanism teaches this. It is not a strawman.
The difference is Moses did have free will. to show he did not desire to do what God wanted, he wanted to do what he wanted. and God did not over rule his free will. which again, True calvanism or fatalism does not teach.
As far as the sovereignty of God, and his plan getting done in spite of our free will choices. It shows God will do what he plans, in spite of us, And also. God plans based on his knowledge of what Mans belief is. Moses did not want to do this because he did not believe God could work through him. It was all based on the pride of Moses. And God planned the events of Moses and the burning bush before time began. Showing God already knew what moses would believe, and predestined the events which followed based on this knowledge.
Who is it that keeps saying God did not predestine according to what he knew man would believe or do?
EG...just cuz you made a proposition about how it went (based on your own thinking), doesn't mean foreknowledge means what you say it does. it might...but how can we be so adamant?
even if it did, you STILL have God being....whatever diggsy said yesterday - a good Guesser
even if it did, you STILL have God being....whatever diggsy said yesterday - a good Guesser
How can I be so adament? "the anger of the lord burned against moses" Yet he chose to show mercy to him anyway. God did predestine these events before time began did he not?
On the contrary. I see God
1. Showing his love for his children. I want you to do this, I understand your fear. But I want you to do it anyway, Trust me
2. You still lack some faith? thats ok, I will still use you, and do it this way, and my will still gets done.
we also find later that Moses through all this did become the great leader God wanted him to be..
or we could look at it this way.
or we could look at it another way. God is merciful when we are frightened of doing what God wants to do. But Gods will will prevail in spite of our freewill choices. he will either use us in a different capacity, as our faith grows, or he will get someone else to do his will.
i love ya tho.
(ps: Daniel 9 is fulfilled)
BOOKENDS! can i borrow your horse?
(ps: Daniel 9 is fulfilled)
BOOKENDS! can i borrow your horse?
A
Ill tell you im simply not ready to explain the whole thing about foreknowledge.
It has little to do with knowing what people will do and more to do with who God
favors....for what reasons we are not told.
But all over the bible we are told of our responsibility. And in other places why
man is damned. And that is his refusal, rebellion,and so forth.
So many scriptures like giving cain a pep talk, wrestling with moses like above.
mourning over Jerusalem, lomgsufferring that no man perish etc etc
Im stuck with two basically contradicting doctrines that wont go together.
So fine. Im a calvinian.
Im convinced before time began the whole plan was ordained
but im confused on the details. To me they are still a mystery
and we fail trying to teach what hasnt been revealed ...such as
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
It has little to do with knowing what people will do and more to do with who God
favors....for what reasons we are not told.
But all over the bible we are told of our responsibility. And in other places why
man is damned. And that is his refusal, rebellion,and so forth.
So many scriptures like giving cain a pep talk, wrestling with moses like above.
mourning over Jerusalem, lomgsufferring that no man perish etc etc
Im stuck with two basically contradicting doctrines that wont go together.
So fine. Im a calvinian.
Im convinced before time began the whole plan was ordained
but im confused on the details. To me they are still a mystery
and we fail trying to teach what hasnt been revealed ...such as
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
I have been under the impression that when we speak of 'free will' we are not referring to believers but to those who are still bound in sin and blinded by the prince of this world. As I have said they freely choose but apart from God;s grace they choose according to their fallen nature. Of course the believer freely chooses God's truth or rejects God's truth whereas the unbeliever is still at enmity due to his fallen nature.
Regarding Lazarus you say that is dealing with the physical, I say it deals with the 'whole' person. God's Word is quick and powerful accomplishing what it declares whether in the physical realm or non physical.
Regarding Lazarus you say that is dealing with the physical, I say it deals with the 'whole' person. God's Word is quick and powerful accomplishing what it declares whether in the physical realm or non physical.
this doesn't match the corridors of time.
at all.
and it's neatly vague, EG
why would He have a Plan....practice an infinite number of scenarios to account for our freewill choices....then circumvent our freewill choices anyway.
whatevah....off to bed.
my brother in Jesus Christ did a super-cool study on some prophets leading up to the First Advent - lining up with Daniel 9 (fulfilled)...i'm going to listen to some audio of those prophets now.
nite bud.
love zonesto
at all.
and it's neatly vague, EG
why would He have a Plan....practice an infinite number of scenarios to account for our freewill choices....then circumvent our freewill choices anyway.
whatevah
....off to bed.my brother in Jesus Christ did a super-cool study on some prophets leading up to the First Advent - lining up with Daniel 9 (fulfilled)...i'm going to listen to some audio of those prophets now.
nite bud.
love zonesto
I tend to agree with thorny issues like this. How is Jesus fully God/fully man? Scripture fully inspired by God in a way that the full personality of the human writer shows through. How is God fully sovereign yet holding intact man's full responsibility?
In our effort to explain these and similar paradoxes we end up erring on one side of the issue or the other because we forget both can be true as both are revealed in Scripture.
In our effort to explain these and similar paradoxes we end up erring on one side of the issue or the other because we forget both can be true as both are revealed in Scripture.
U
Ya zone has a good point. Then when i think im getting somewhere i get a anthropomorphism
thrown at me.....hey im whining arnt i? oppss
Well its my birthday and i can cry if i want to.
thrown at me.....hey im whining arnt i? oppss
Well its my birthday and i can cry if i want to.
Got a nice lil' kitty for ya 
Skinski said - "It is quite erroneous to state, - "the human condition is apart from God, and no effort can be made in one's own power to rectify the situation".
This is the heart of your problem.
You appear to claim that after the atonement one can be justified in their own power.
Simplify in order to see Skinski.
I have found that one who can't state their case succinctly, usually has a bad case.
Please try to make your responses short as the truth is plain, and should be easily deduced, (after reading the Bible).
What?
Something about sanctification?
Please read I Cor. 1:30.
Address it please.
This is the heart of your problem.
You appear to claim that after the atonement one can be justified in their own power.
Simplify in order to see Skinski.
I have found that one who can't state their case succinctly, usually has a bad case.
Please try to make your responses short as the truth is plain, and should be easily deduced, (after reading the Bible).
What?
Something about sanctification?
Please read I Cor. 1:30.
Address it please.
E
Enmity is death, It does not mean they can not chose life. If they can not chose life. no one would be saved. A non believer has free will to believe. Again the Law as a schoolmaster would be useless if a non believer could never have faith, because the schoolmaster could not do what it was intended to do.
Since we are speaking of spiritually dead people having the ability to chose Christ and be made alive based on that choice. The physical resurrection of Lazarus has nothing to do with our conversation. he was spiritually alive before he died physically. and long before Christ raised him, how did he get that way?
Since we are speaking of spiritually dead people having the ability to chose Christ and be made alive based on that choice. The physical resurrection of Lazarus has nothing to do with our conversation. he was spiritually alive before he died physically. and long before Christ raised him, how did he get that way?