Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[eternally-gratefull]

this doesn't match the corridors of time.
at all.

and it's neatly vague, EG

lol. Zone. I guess if you did not understand the whole essence of God it would be vague and would not reach. Then again, this has been an issue for a long time. how many people reject moses as the author of the first 5 books, or daniel, because God can not know what people will do, and events which will happen hundreds of years in the future.

why would He have a Plan....practice an infinite number of scenarios to account for our freewill choices....then circumvent our freewill choices anyway.

this is no problem with an Infinite all powerful god now is it? you know. the same God which says 1000 years are but a blink of an eye. We are limited to finite things, so yes, it would be hard to understand, but would it make it not true?

whatevah....off to bed.

my brother in Jesus Christ did a super-cool study on some prophets leading up to the First Advent - lining up with Daniel 9 (fulfilled)...i'm going to listen to some audio of those prophets now.

nite bud.
love zonesto

Thats ok. I am listening to a wonderful brother teach on daniel 9. It is amazing how today we can see the great work of God.. I just wish you could see those things with me.

Night! Hope you slept well sis.. Love ya!

 

[zone]

Oh God is a personal God. who would like his people to follow him and trust him completely without fail. And we always let him down?

Did your parent ever get mad at you when you chose to not follow their command. And did they NEVER show mercy?

EG...we were following a line of reasoning here, which has been lost as of these two posts, so i'll discontinue.
love you.

 

[zone]

Thats ok. I am listening to a wonderful brother teach on daniel 9. It is amazing how today we can see the great work of God.. I just wish you could see those things with me.

oh i see the work today we think is Daniel 9 being fulfilled.
i wish you could see it's something else

Night! Hope you slept well sis.. Love ya

oh thank you brother.
not that well.
creeping decrepitude
arthritis has me only able to sleep in one position, with about 200 pillows for support of arms etc.
and not for very long periods (an hour or two at a time).

using a cane now...don't you dare say a word EG - i know how ta use it bro

but....onward!

 

[crossnote]

Enmity is death, It does not mean they can not chose life. If they can not chose life. no one would be saved. A non believer has free will to believe. Again the Law as a schoolmaster would be useless if a non believer could never have faith, because the schoolmaster could not do what it was intended to do.



Since we are speaking of spiritually dead people having the ability to chose Christ and be made alive based on that choice. The physical resurrection of Lazarus has nothing to do with our conversation. he was spiritually alive before he died physically. and long before Christ raised him, how did he get that way?

I've repeated myself many times and in various ways and wont continue. Have your free will for the fallen man, we each have made ourselves clear and happen not to agree on that point.

 

[Bookends]

your way kinda seems like it has God toying with Moses even AFTER he knew Moses would shirk (?)

Did God toy with Adam and even when after they sinned and God came looking for them and said, "Where are you?"

i love ya tho.
(ps: Daniel 9 is fulfilled)

ditto!!

BOOKENDS! can i borrow your horse?

Yes!!! as long as it stays dead!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've repeated myself many times and in various ways and wont continue. Have your free will for the fallen man, we each have made ourselves clear and happen not to agree on that point.

No we do not agree. I can't see it your way. You have tried. But I can;t twist scripture the way you do. sorry

 

[zone]

Did God toy with Adam and even when after they sinned and God came looking for them and said, "Where are you?"

no. He was giving Adam the opportunity to confess, wan't He?
Adam already knew Him personally.

gentiles in far off lands did not yet know Him personally...did they?

Yes!!! as long as it stays dead!!!

well, the man is still beating it, so i'm sure it's a goner

 

[Bookends]

no. He was giving Adam the opportunity to confess, wan't He?
Adam already knew Him personally.

lol, right I know...I was trying to make the point that God wasn't toying with Moses either.

gentiles in far off lands did not yet know Him personally...did they?

in Adams day ? lol...I'm guess you mean in Moses day....I don't know. Did Moses' father-in-law know God?

well, the man is still beating it, so i'm sure it's a goner

my point was not resurrect the topic after you barrow my dead horse. But I wouldn't hold to that !

 

[zone]

lol, right I know...I was trying to make the point that God wasn't toying with Moses either.
in Adams day ? lol...I'm guess you mean in Moses day....I don't know. Did Moses' father-in-law know God?
my point was not resurrect the topic after you barrow my dead horse. But I wouldn't hold to that !

love you brother.
z

 

[crossnote]

No we do not agree. I can't see it your way. You have tried. But I can;t twist scripture the way you do. sorry

......ditto

 

[Abiding]

I really think freewill was defined from the beginning too vague.
That in itself leads to misunderstanding one another.

All of us can think freewill infers something another wouldnt be thinking.
then debate from the wrong assumptions, or presumptions.

 

[RickShafer]

I really think freewill was defined from the beginning too vague.
That in itself leads to misunderstanding one another.

All of us can think freewill infers something another wouldnt be thinking.
then debate from the wrong assumptions, or presumptions.

Yea, if you actually knew what you were debating.
Then a better definition would have been in order.
Who doesn't know what freewill means?
Man's freewill to choose his eternal course.
Clear enough?
Got it by now? - (I know it's hard....soooo very hard)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yea, if you actually knew what you were debating.
Then a better definition would have been in order.
Who doesn't know what freewill means?
Man's freewill to choose his eternal course.
Clear enough?
Got it by now? - (I know it's hard....soooo very hard)

do you ever look in the mirror at your sarcastic attitude? Do you think God really condones the way you are acting? it all comes from pride, do you not know that? do you also know that pride is sin?

 

[Crossfire]

While I do agree that man can do nothing to save himself, scripture indicates that man's depravity is nothing more than an obstacle that can be overcome once the Holy Spirit enters the equation. This is the reason I refuse the call it "total depravity". Too often various people attempt to use "total depravity" to make allowances for sin and reduce grace to nothing more than just the forgiveness of sin.

Grace is and always will be an invitation to forgiveness through repentance, repentance being man's response to the inner workings (conviction) of the Holy Spirit. Forgiveness is not the end to a means but rather a mean to an end, that end being right fellowship / communion with God through His indwelling Spirit, abiding in the Holy Spirit being the means in which sin is overcome in this life. This is biblical grace.

To sum things up, "total depravity", to a great degree, is nothing more than myth. A more accurate title of man's depraved state would have to be "PHYSICAL depravity" with the description being man's longing for "the lusts of the flesh and the desires of this world".

 

[crosswinds]

I am starting to doubt there is a thing as free will. If what some people in this thread are saying is true, that in order to be saved, God has to save us, then that just proves it.

 

[rauleetoe]

I am starting to doubt there is a thing as free will. If what some people in this thread are saying is true, that in order to be saved, God has to save us, then that just proves it.

God saves those who do not resist the spirit..Whosoever will receive this free gift can have it. After all, a gift is to be receieved,and not forced upon anyone..that's the beautifull thing about it all.

I believe the thread title was loosely written and should have been titled-

Compatibilism VS libertarian free will

That would have made more sense, seeing as many who believe in free will(Which means more often than not libertarian free will-freedom given by God) also reject Compatibalism and divine determinism yet they do accept total depravity, to some degree at least.
That said, I can and do accept total depravity(apart from God's help/his Holy Spirit) But at the same time see that people have enough 'ability' if you may call it that(which is also given to us by God himself) to hear and believe the Gospel.
I believe in free will or should i restate it as Libertarian free will because of what i know to be true about God's character, that He is Holy..and Awesome,and good..and only good, and if he is truly good, he cannot condemn you for something that you truly did not reject aka if you were forced by God to reject him and then he punishes you for this very thing you were made to do how could this be seen as loving, or right, or good.
It can't be.

 

[schoolofyoungprophet]

God saves those who do not resist the spirit..Whosoever will receive this free gift can have it. After all, a gift is to be receieved,and not forced upon anyone..that's the beautifull thing about it all.

I believe the thread title was loosely written and should have been titled-

Compatibilism VS libertarian free will

That would have made more sense, seeing as many who believe in free will(Which means more often than not libertarian free will-freedom given by God) also reject Compatibalism and divine determinism yet they do accept total depravity, to some degree at least.
That said, I can and do accept total depravity(apart from God's help/his Holy Spirit) But at the same time see that people have enough 'ability' if you may call it that(which is also given to us by God himself) to hear and believe the Gospel.
I believe in free will or should i restate it as Libertarian free will because of what i know to be true about God's character, that He is Holy..and Awesome,and good..and only good, and if he is truly good, he cannot condemn you for something that you truly did not reject aka if you were forced by God to reject him and then he punishes you for this very thing you were made to do how could this be seen as loving, or right, or good.
It can't be.

We were dead in sin,there is no way we have the power to receive such gift,however its the holyspirit who works in us,when he does there is nothing a man can do but follow God.
we r saved by grace n faith through our lord Jesus n we had no part in him ,God alone can save.
So is it God who is forcing a person to change? No..he has done a work of regeneration,where the whole nature of a sinfull man is changed.
Its God who changes,its god who saves so that he alone gets all glory

 

[rauleetoe]

We were dead in sin,there is no way we have the power to receive such gift,however its the holyspirit who works in us,when he does there is nothing a man can do but follow God.
we r saved by grace n faith through our lord Jesus n we had no part in him ,God alone can save.
So is it God who is forcing a person to change? No..he has done a work of regeneration,where the whole nature of a sinfull man is changed.
Its God who changes,its god who saves so that he alone gets all glory

No one said it is not of God, but God will not force you to accept him..see,this is what certain theologies and 'positions' say, but if you had to force your wife,or girlfriend, or a friend to be in relationship with you, by force..is that loving? Is it a real relationship? Or is it mere abuse?

I never said the Holy spirit does not involve himself in salvation..where i will adamantly disagree is where it seems you may be going, OSAS and five point calvinism.
God did not make us automatons..
If God 'makes' you serve him, then you are merely a puppet in his hands..and are not in a real relationship..thats more abuse than a sincere relationship.
God's character is that of a Loving God..and a loving God will not force himself on you, he may call out to you...but he is not a cosmic arm twister.
Behold I stand at the door and knock He said..not, Behold I stand beside the doorknob and pick the lock..
If you invite him in your heart, its not to boast about, you simply stopped resisting God, that is the only 'work' you can even claim you did, if that is even a 'work' in itself, i would say its more of a 'response' and a submitting,than a work, or something to brag about..so don't go thinking that by accepting Christ it would be a 'boast worthy' claim of anyone, that is what those who call us 'free willers/free willies' will accuse those who reject their claim want. No..the one who rejects determinism still believes in grace, but grace always includes responsibility and grace always requires a response, you can reject it or accept it. However..what many call grace is really a cheap imitation that should be packaged as the stuff they are truly selling, licentiousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We were dead in sin,there is no way we have the power to receive such gift,however its the holyspirit who works in us,when he does there is nothing a man can do but follow God.

if this was true everyone would be saved, and everyone would walk after the spirit and not after the flesh. Because as scripture states, The HS was sent to convict the world if sin righteousness and judgment, not just the supposed chosen ones. It also says we who are saved are sealed with the spirit. thus if as you say we can do NOTHING but FOLLOW HIM, then we could not follow the flesh any longer.

we r saved by grace n faith through our lord Jesus n we had no part in him ,

Your correct., we had no part. That why we trusted(had faith) in HIS WORK, HIS PROMISE and HIS CHARACTER, and not our own.

God alone can save.

Again, Amen, And he can save everyone, in fact this is his desire. But he will not force his gift on someone who does not wish to recieve it.

So is it God who is forcing a person to change? No..he has done a work of regeneration,where the whole nature of a sinfull man is changed.

Again Amen.

Its God who changes,its god who saves so that he alone gets all glory

Again Amen. He gets credit even for those who are not saved, and spend eternity apart from him, because he offered them the same gift. His love thus can never be questioned. And he can not be blamed for them rejecting him

 

[zone]

No one said it is not of God, but God will not force you to accept him..see,this is what certain theologies and 'positions' say, but if you had to force your wife,or girlfriend, or a friend to be in relationship with you, by force..is that loving? Is it a real relationship? Or is it mere abuse?

hi raul.
do you find your wife irresistible?
is she persuasive when it comes to love?
does she find you irresistible?
where did that love come from?
does she love you?
if not...why not?

what's the problem?
zone.