Total Depravity vs. Freewill
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E
hi raul.
do you find your wife irresistible?
is she persuasive when it comes to love?
does she find you irresistible?
where did that love come from?
does she love you?
if not...why not?
what's the problem?
zone.
do you find your wife irresistible?
is she persuasive when it comes to love?
does she find you irresistible?
where did that love come from?
does she love you?
if not...why not?
what's the problem?
zone.
God is irresistible. look what he did. What he promises. and what he offers.
If irrisistablilty was a major factor in people choosing God. then everyone would choose him.
If your stuck in self. it does not matter how irresistible someone else is. You will not even see it. That is why one can not come to faith until they first repent.
phil 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
eph:2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
did we choose?dont we see that salvation is a free gift plus faith is too?
and about repentacne id say u cannot repent unless u have faith.
its the inworking of the holy spirit which gives genuine repentance to God.
God is love like i said in earlier post regeneration is a complete change of nature in which we did nothing to acheieve it,we were made brand new in christ and it is through christ..but dont i have to accept him or do somthing for him to come in to my heart? we are not saved by any works or our doings.
how can that be love? isnt it forcing (v common question)
he is not forcing when God regenerates a man he has changed a whole nature of a person,and that person beholds what God has done for him ,he beholds his beauty and he can do nothing but bow down and worship him
let me give u a perfect example:
i have seen many ppl in nepal who have received christ,some come because they feel the need to expereince somthing new from the west,some wishing to get some money from missionaries(very common,rumour says if u become christian u gets dollars from abroad).i have seen some come in to christianity so that they can find good jobs in christian organisation and many more,am not lying i have seen this for a very long time.however nepal used to be a hindu kingdom,conversion into other religion brings persecution,many feel christianity is not a cup of my tea,many fall away, some stay and all they have is a shell of christianity that does nothing and has no fruit.
however i have also seen a person who has been found by God,ready to die now for christ,
i have seen 70 years old guy whos worshipped idols whos quit idol worshipping moment he got saved.
i have seen demon possessed person delivered and bow down to worship christ.i can go on and on,and i have seen men killed brand new christians who were burned alive for beleiving christ.
then why dont everyone get saved,my answer is i have no idea,will tell u when i find it
but this i know his ways are higher than ours.
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
eph:2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
did we choose?dont we see that salvation is a free gift plus faith is too?
and about repentacne id say u cannot repent unless u have faith.
its the inworking of the holy spirit which gives genuine repentance to God.
God is love like i said in earlier post regeneration is a complete change of nature in which we did nothing to acheieve it,we were made brand new in christ and it is through christ..but dont i have to accept him or do somthing for him to come in to my heart? we are not saved by any works or our doings.
how can that be love? isnt it forcing (v common question)
he is not forcing when God regenerates a man he has changed a whole nature of a person,and that person beholds what God has done for him ,he beholds his beauty and he can do nothing but bow down and worship him
let me give u a perfect example:
i have seen many ppl in nepal who have received christ,some come because they feel the need to expereince somthing new from the west,some wishing to get some money from missionaries(very common,rumour says if u become christian u gets dollars from abroad).i have seen some come in to christianity so that they can find good jobs in christian organisation and many more,am not lying i have seen this for a very long time.however nepal used to be a hindu kingdom,conversion into other religion brings persecution,many feel christianity is not a cup of my tea,many fall away, some stay and all they have is a shell of christianity that does nothing and has no fruit.
however i have also seen a person who has been found by God,ready to die now for christ,
i have seen 70 years old guy whos worshipped idols whos quit idol worshipping moment he got saved.
i have seen demon possessed person delivered and bow down to worship christ.i can go on and on,and i have seen men killed brand new christians who were burned alive for beleiving christ.
then why dont everyone get saved,my answer is i have no idea,will tell u when i find it
but this i know his ways are higher than ours.
C
"look what he did" He created hell "What he promises" Where's the promise? We may or may not go to heaven. "and what he offers" refuge from a hell He himself created. Anyway, even if someone or something is irresistible, that doesn't mean everyone knows about it. How can anyone be expected to fall in love with someone they've never seen or met or known. (hence the phrase "love at first sight")
A
schoolofyoungprophet
Yes we choose....you say you dont know why everyone doesnt get saved?
well here is a small amount of verses, and there are many more.
Dont let that wrongly understood elect understanding give you amnesia
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" (Jn. 3:36).
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (Jn. 12:48).
2 thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
john 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2 thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
john 12:42-43: 42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Acts 7: 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." II Corinthians 4:3-4
Since they did not consider it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind Romans 1:28
Yes we choose....you say you dont know why everyone doesnt get saved?
well here is a small amount of verses, and there are many more.
Dont let that wrongly understood elect understanding give you amnesia
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him" (Jn. 3:36).
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (Jn. 12:48).
2 thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
john 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2 thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
john 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
john 12:42-43: 42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Acts 7: 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." II Corinthians 4:3-4
Since they did not consider it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind Romans 1:28
A
disclaimer #2 if depravity means that God has to save you for u to get saved i dont believe in it.
If freewill means that a man gets saved without the work of the Holyspirit then i dont believe in that either.
The entire trinity is involved in a mans salvation.
not all people see these terms with the same meaning....but ive seen in this thread some consistency finally.
Abraham sent out his servant to find Isaac a wife with a dowry with one condition: she had to be willing.
If freewill means that a man gets saved without the work of the Holyspirit then i dont believe in that either.
The entire trinity is involved in a mans salvation.
not all people see these terms with the same meaning....but ive seen in this thread some consistency finally.
Abraham sent out his servant to find Isaac a wife with a dowry with one condition: she had to be willing.
R
hi raul.
do you find your wife irresistible?
is she persuasive when it comes to love?
does she find you irresistible?
where did that love come from?
does she love you?
if not...why not?
what's the problem?
zone.
do you find your wife irresistible?
is she persuasive when it comes to love?
does she find you irresistible?
where did that love come from?
does she love you?
if not...why not?
what's the problem?
zone.
hi raul
i am certain you will be married.
when your heart is quickened by that love for your future wife < i'm not a prophet but i have a hunch, ask yourself how that happened.
the man & woman love illustration was just meant to say maybe when you meet your wife, you will wonder where that love in your heart came from. you will know you certainly didn't summon up such love from inside yourself - maybe she had an attraction that you found irresistible? i know you will tell her this. and she'll tell you the same.
this is not to say you lose your self-control and become a robot with no volition (although it might seem like it at times). simply that everything that came before she was revealed now means little in comparison. and as human beings, between us we do not even have a perfect love. where does love come from?
we have an object of our love. but it is something in them or coming from them which stirs something in us, don't you think?
what if the one we love actually loved us first, with a perfect love - what if we are amazed that they even noticed us, let alone lavished all their love on us - and that even though we love them with everything in us, it still seems something unable to be expressed in words? where does love like this come from? i do not know - it just appears.
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Romans 5:5
This hope will not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
anyways....no need to reply...and this isn't personal.
just pondering.
zone
i am certain you will be married.
when your heart is quickened by that love for your future wife < i'm not a prophet but i have a hunch
, ask yourself how that happened. the man & woman love illustration was just meant to say maybe when you meet your wife, you will wonder where that love in your heart came from. you will know you certainly didn't summon up such love from inside yourself - maybe she had an attraction that you found irresistible? i know you will tell her this. and she'll tell you the same.
this is not to say you lose your self-control and become a robot with no volition (although it might seem like it at times
). simply that everything that came before she was revealed now means little in comparison. and as human beings, between us we do not even have a perfect love. where does love come from?we have an object of our love. but it is something in them or coming from them which stirs something in us, don't you think?
what if the one we love actually loved us first, with a perfect love - what if we are amazed that they even noticed us, let alone lavished all their love on us - and that even though we love them with everything in us, it still seems something unable to be expressed in words? where does love like this come from? i do not know - it just appears.
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Romans 5:5
This hope will not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
anyways....no need to reply...and this isn't personal.
just pondering.
zone
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that is most certainly true.
i'm not an advocate of TULIP.
i think i've said this before.
Monergism describes the position in Christian theology of those who believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about effectually the salvation of individuals through spiritual regeneration without cooperation from the individual. Monergism is most often associated with Calvinism (like many American Presbyterians and Dutch Reformed) and its doctrine of irresistible grace and in particular with historic doctrinal differences between Calvinism on the one hand and Arminianism on the other.
This position is often presented in contrast to synergism, the belief that God and individuals cooperate for salvation. Lutherans generally adhere to a modified and less stringent form of monergism.
wiki
i'm not an advocate of TULIP.
i think i've said this before.
Monergism describes the position in Christian theology of those who believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about effectually the salvation of individuals through spiritual regeneration without cooperation from the individual. Monergism is most often associated with Calvinism (like many American Presbyterians and Dutch Reformed) and its doctrine of irresistible grace and in particular with historic doctrinal differences between Calvinism on the one hand and Arminianism on the other.
This position is often presented in contrast to synergism, the belief that God and individuals cooperate for salvation. Lutherans generally adhere to a modified and less stringent form of monergism.
wiki
words like cooperating and making....i don't know what to do with them.
i just know dead and alive.
a heart of stone and a circumcised heart.
i didn't perform heart surgery on myself.
maybe i did. i don't know how i did it though.
i was asleep when it happened
if i knew how i did it, maybe i could perform it on others.
or develop a manual for ppl to perform it on themselves.
i dunno mike.
it's bigger than i even thought to begin with.
nothing of me whatsoever.
no doubt in my mind.
if saying in my mind: kill me and get it over with is cooperating, then i guess i did.
it's more about 911 emergency than making.
i just know dead and alive.
a heart of stone and a circumcised heart.
i didn't perform heart surgery on myself.
maybe i did. i don't know how i did it though.
i was asleep when it happened
if i knew how i did it, maybe i could perform it on others.
or develop a manual for ppl to perform it on themselves.
i dunno mike.
it's bigger than i even thought to begin with.
nothing of me whatsoever.
no doubt in my mind.
if saying in my mind: kill me and get it over with is cooperating, then i guess i did.
it's more about 911 emergency than making.
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A
Repent you therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.acts3:1
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The order of salvation always seems the same, the repentance which i know God permits and the Holyspirit convicts
belief and reception of the Gospel and the Lord....then the Power(grace) leading to conversion/regeneration.
Yet i think monergism has a different order.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The order of salvation always seems the same, the repentance which i know God permits and the Holyspirit convicts
belief and reception of the Gospel and the Lord....then the Power(grace) leading to conversion/regeneration.
Yet i think monergism has a different order.
A
words like cooperating and making....i don't know what to do with them.
i just know dead and alive.
a heart of stone and a circumcised heart.
i didn't perform heart surgery on myself.
maybe i did. i don't know how i did it though.
i was asleep when it happened
if i knew how i did it, maybe i could perform it on others.
or develop a manual for ppl to perform it on themselves.
i dunno mike.
it's bigger than i even thought to begin with.
nothing of me whatsoever.
no doubt in my mind.
if saying in my mind: kill me and get it over with is cooperating, then i guess i did.
it's more about 911 emergency than making.
i just know dead and alive.
a heart of stone and a circumcised heart.
i didn't perform heart surgery on myself.
maybe i did. i don't know how i did it though.
i was asleep when it happened
if i knew how i did it, maybe i could perform it on others.
or develop a manual for ppl to perform it on themselves.
i dunno mike.
it's bigger than i even thought to begin with.
nothing of me whatsoever.
no doubt in my mind.
if saying in my mind: kill me and get it over with is cooperating, then i guess i did.
it's more about 911 emergency than making.
I took the word cooperation from your definition.
The point wasnt at all about the new birth or the new heart at all.
Why did u mix that into it?
W
Thanks for the definitions, but different denominations still interpret the definitions differently.
Rom.10:13-"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Yes I agree that God's grace comes first, Scripture verifies such, but God loves us all & He takes responsibility for creating all of us, even the evil ones, or evil "vessels".This does not mean we are special because God chose/predestined us to be Christians, & won't ALLOW others to be saved.
Scripture has already been given that predestination is with "foreknowledge". Therefore He knows in advance who will call upon the name of the Lord.This is foreknowledge. He has "called" us to certain jobs/duties.We called on the name of the Lord, others don't, even though they have been given grace also.
Rom.9:14-"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
Rom. 5:18- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteous of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Jesus died on the cross so that ALL men might be saved, not just the ones He liked best.
Rom.10:13-"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Yes I agree that God's grace comes first, Scripture verifies such, but God loves us all & He takes responsibility for creating all of us, even the evil ones, or evil "vessels".This does not mean we are special because God chose/predestined us to be Christians, & won't ALLOW others to be saved.
Scripture has already been given that predestination is with "foreknowledge". Therefore He knows in advance who will call upon the name of the Lord.This is foreknowledge. He has "called" us to certain jobs/duties.We called on the name of the Lord, others don't, even though they have been given grace also.
Rom.9:14-"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."
Rom. 5:18- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteous of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
Jesus died on the cross so that ALL men might be saved, not just the ones He liked best.
ok. i don't know where i used cooperation. was it on the wiki page?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?
ok. i don't know where i used cooperation. was it on the wiki page?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?
No, but there sure are a lot of "I"s in the that!
it seems we can't have this discussion with making it about ourselves.
reverse engineering it so I can say I did it.
I was trying to see if there was much synergism in My experience.
do you think there was?
what did I do?
sin My way out of the maze?