Total Depravity vs. Freewill
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C
Scripture seems to support both the sovereignty of God as well as the free will of man thus the answer to this question is more complicated than some would care to admit. The human mind can barely contemplate creation, what hope do we have understanding the Creator outside of the glimpse we get of Him through scripture?
R
hi raul
i am certain you will be married.
when your heart is quickened by that love for your future wife < i'm not a prophet but i have a hunch
, ask yourself how that happened.
the man & woman love illustration was just meant to say maybe when you meet your wife, you will wonder where that love in your heart came from. you will know you certainly didn't summon up such love from inside yourself - maybe she had an attraction that you found irresistible? i know you will tell her this. and she'll tell you the same.
this is not to say you lose your self-control and become a robot with no volition (although it might seem like it at times). simply that everything that came before she was revealed now means little in comparison. and as human beings, between us we do not even have a perfect love. where does love come from?
we have an object of our love. but it is something in them or coming from them which stirs something in us, don't you think?
what if the one we love actually loved us first, with a perfect love - what if we are amazed that they even noticed us, let alone lavished all their love on us - and that even though we love them with everything in us, it still seems something unable to be expressed in words? where does love like this come from? i do not know - it just appears.
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Romans 5:5
This hope will not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
anyways....no need to reply...and this isn't personal.
just pondering.
zone
i am certain you will be married.
when your heart is quickened by that love for your future wife < i'm not a prophet but i have a hunch
, ask yourself how that happened. the man & woman love illustration was just meant to say maybe when you meet your wife, you will wonder where that love in your heart came from. you will know you certainly didn't summon up such love from inside yourself - maybe she had an attraction that you found irresistible? i know you will tell her this. and she'll tell you the same.
this is not to say you lose your self-control and become a robot with no volition (although it might seem like it at times
). simply that everything that came before she was revealed now means little in comparison. and as human beings, between us we do not even have a perfect love. where does love come from?we have an object of our love. but it is something in them or coming from them which stirs something in us, don't you think?
what if the one we love actually loved us first, with a perfect love - what if we are amazed that they even noticed us, let alone lavished all their love on us - and that even though we love them with everything in us, it still seems something unable to be expressed in words? where does love like this come from? i do not know - it just appears.
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
Romans 5:5
This hope will not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
anyways....no need to reply...and this isn't personal.
just pondering.
zone
I see..well, Thanks for the kind thoughts about my possibly getting married. At the end of the day, Paul did say though if we can be like him..then by all means do so. Even Jesus mentioned this in the gospel of matthew, eunuchs for the kingdom, he who can do this, do it. So, i am ok with either. Women can be a huge distraction for any single man anyways. Honestly, I am glad/relieved in a sense that I did not marry whoever i thought would be 'wife material' seeing as i would have missed it big time most likely. Honestly, I am totally fine with being single and only wish that i would have consistently thought this way the earlier years of my being in church, but the social pressures in society,and as well as seeing people marry like crazy in Bible school and in churches(I do believe there is pressure upon youth to get married,or perhaps they only marry because you know..they wanna do that thing which only married folks are supposed to do)
That said, I believe Love originally comes from God..once again, I am still trying to grasp the exact thing I am being challenged on. I agree God loves, he seeks us out..but like if for instance Zone..let's say you are a single woman..and a man is doting on you, seeking your attention and affection..he can love on you, say sweet things, open the door for you, pick up the tab for you,buy you gifts, take you to nice restaurants/all these things that men do to seek a woman's affection(I know,been there..done that) and if you still are not feeling him..no matter what(whether you have a good reason or do not) You can reject him. And i believe it is with God too..we can resist him. I still do not grasp why anyone would want to, but people do..and I do think its on them,because they love their sin, or pride..or wanting to be 'God' for themselves(Was guilty of this in the past myself)..
That said, my opinion and personal conviction is that God can be resisted(observation of people i knew close to me,who have..and from personal experience as well)
A
ok. i don't know where i used cooperation. was it on the wiki page?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?[/QUO
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In the post i responded to..sheesh
now your throwing in the new heart and new birth.
nevermind.
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?[/QUO
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In the post i responded to..sheesh
now your throwing in the new heart and new birth.
nevermind.
The issue boils down to a far more crucial issue then just trying to "solve" a so called problem of "harmonizing God's sovereignity and human free will". We either have justification in Christ alone or we have it in man alone. It cannot be both and they can never mix. John 19:28,30, Col. 1:22, Rom. 5:9.
R
If you mean Human free will apart from that which God has given(libertarian free will) then yes, i will amen with you all day, twice on sunday regarding this. All free will, which is libertarian and limited and given by God..is given to us because he,God wants us to have genuine relationship with him. It is not about anybody seeking to take the credit for God saving us, he did it..we simply stop resisting,thats all we ever do really.
ok. i don't know where i used cooperation. was it on the wiki page?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?
monergism is a word.
why did i mix what into what, abiding?
clarify please
i guess i'm trying to say it is about the new birth and new heart.
what is there before that?
i don't know about anyone else's perception of the new birth. i only know about mine.
my life looked like this:
when i emerged from the only exit, i looked back and saw i was completely blind through the entire event.
i have no explanation.
except somehow knowing it was all wrong < without excuse. i knew this.
but i did not know what the solution was.
i don't know what to say about that.
do you?
No wonder I felt like I kept going around in circles
i would agree.
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
can man do anything of the the things on that list.
...
i know you reject the corridors of Time, Abiding, so can you explain the foreknowledge part.
if i can grasp that...without God learning something.
what you said sounds right:
since man cant atone for himself he also cant justify himself.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
....
can you explain what those two verse mean.
speculation is okay. reasoning, scriptures.
all of it.
if i could resolve those 2 verses i want to see what you understand.
i know you understand it but i am having trouble grasping what you are saying.
love zone
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausef the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,g for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
can man do anything of the the things on that list.
...
i know you reject the corridors of Time, Abiding, so can you explain the foreknowledge part.
if i can grasp that...without God learning something.
what you said sounds right:
since man cant atone for himself he also cant justify himself.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
....
can you explain what those two verse mean.
speculation is okay. reasoning, scriptures.
all of it.
if i could resolve those 2 verses i want to see what you understand.
i know you understand it but i am having trouble grasping what you are saying.
love zone
A
You know if everyone that got saved got knocked to the ground id care more to
give an opinion. We know God prepared him from birth and you have the story of
his conversion and not much can be gleaned from it. So why are you taking a ton
of theology and trying to base it on Pauls conversion?
Paul did preach believe and be converted not be converted and then believe.
As did Jesus and all the Apostles.
give an opinion. We know God prepared him from birth and you have the story of
his conversion and not much can be gleaned from it. So why are you taking a ton
of theology and trying to base it on Pauls conversion?
Paul did preach believe and be converted not be converted and then believe.
As did Jesus and all the Apostles.
A
I cant seem to use color and answer next to your text like before..argg
"can man do anything of the the things on that list." answer: of coarse not. cant see the point your making.
"i know you reject the corridors of Time, Abiding, so can you explain the foreknowledge part.
if i can grasp that...without God learning something." answer: not sure about corridor thingy because im not sure what you mean by it.
As for Gods foreknowledge. I understand that some have the logical opinion that in order to foreknow something
that God would be forced to predestine it. My position is that the verse is telling us that God is omniscient nothing
more and that He saves those who believe. The rest of the verse explains salvation. And the immediate context is
to build our faith in Gods keeping power promise to work it all out for good.
Im not sure i see the point in this either, so im sorry if my comments are not much.