Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[zone]

You know if everyone that got saved got knocked to the ground id care more to
give an opinion. We know God prepared him from birth and you have the story of
his conversion and not much can be gleaned from it. So why are you taking a ton
of theology and trying to base it on Pauls conversion?

excuse me, then.
i was asking questions.
i thought you knew the solution to the conundrum.
so far i've seen speculation; scripture posted and a position taken, just like everybody else.
i thought you had more insight. that's why i asked specifically for it.
now you say you don't want to give an opinion...then you do (?)

sorry. no offense intended.

Paul did preach believe and be converted not be converted and then believe.
As did Jesus and all the Apostles.

could you give me the scripture addies on paul then?
he was my case study.

and Jesus sought out the others first. whatever conversion they went through, fine.
i'm willing to talk about that.

it's not worth fighting over, anyway.
second thought n.m.

coffee?

 

[zone]

I cant seem to use color and answer next to your text like before..argg

"can man do anything of the the things on that list." answer: of coarse not. cant see the point your making.


"i know you reject the corridors of Time, Abiding, so can you explain the foreknowledge part.
if i can grasp that...without God learning something." answer: not sure about corridor thingy because im not sure what you mean by it.

As for Gods foreknowledge. I understand that some have the logical opinion that in order to foreknow something
that God would be forced to predestine it. My position is that the verse is telling us that God is omniscient nothing
more and that He saves those who believe. The rest of the verse explains salvation. And the immediate context is
to build our faith in Gods keeping power promise to work it all out for good.

Im not sure i see the point in this either, so im sorry if my comments are not much.

okay. thanks. i hear you.
ya. i'm out.
monergistzone

the op was total depravity vs free will < which is a no-win - and i don't like either term anyways.

 

[Abiding]

I had a response then noticed the edit. I tossed it.
Thanks for the coffee offer...im off to the lobster house.
Alot of confusion come to me from definitions.
Who knows what a term conjurs up in anothers mind.
And biting off too much in a dialogue is overwhelming.
I can honestly say i dont even know what we are talking about.

 

[zone]

I had a response then noticed the edit. I tossed it.
Thanks for the coffee offer...im off to the lobster house.

drop by for coffee later if ya want

 

[GreenNnice]

The issue boils down to a far more crucial issue then just trying to "solve" a so called problem of "harmonizing God's sovereignity and human free will". We either have justification in Christ alone or we have it in man alone. It cannot be both and they can never mix. John 19:28,30, Col. 1:22, Rom. 5:9.

Why is solved in quotes, tribers?


And, you were going very good there, I thought bringing a harmony to God's sovereignty and man's freedom and confidence to choose this day whom to serve.

But, then, you brought in 'justifaction.' The congruency of the two sentences harmonizes like oil and water mixed.

So, where do we go from here, if we are to abide in Him, is that not a conscious choice.
Just not sure of your belief, that's all, trib, God saves, we have none to do with that, by His power, by His 'great' act that no.longer made us humans 'enemies of God.' (Read Zechariah 6 )

So, how does the choice God made to propitiate our relationship with Him translate to our becoming totally depraved?

Also, how do we do things , walk, talk, live our lives, as believers?

1. Do we unquestionably use our 'mind of Christ' so given His own that Paul states we mind-fully have, reading of/in 1 Cor. 2 , unable to do anything apart from His power?

2. Is our will , our human will, at all able to do anything contrarian to God's known chosen plan for our 'believer' life?

So, read below now another question to you, and, what answer do you believe is how you walk, talk, live life as a 'follower' of Him?

Do you do all the 'work' and He takes all the credit?
Does He do all the 'work' and you take all the credit?

"Whatever YOU do, do it all to the glory of God."

Who, tribers, is performing this action?

You through God, or, God through you ?

You can answer this, too, if you missed my asking it.



I agree with this of your Signature: to God be the glory alone.


Just asking some questions to understand how we give God the glory, really .

I through Him .
He through me.

Which is right? What does Scripture state?

 

[rauleetoe]

Why is solved in quotes, tribers?


And, you were going very good there, I thought bringing a harmony to God's sovereignty and man's freedom and confidence to choose this day whom to serve.

But, then, you brought in 'justifaction.' The congruency of the two sentences harmonizes like oil and water mixed.

So, where do we go from here, if we are to abide in Him, is that not a conscious choice.
Just not sure of your belief, that's all, trib, God saves, we have none to do with that, by His power, by His 'great' act that no.longer made us humans 'enemies of God.' (Read Zechariah 6 )

So, how does the choice God made to propitiate our relationship with Him translate to our becoming totally depraved?

Also, how do we do things , walk, talk, live our lives, as believers?

1. Do we unquestionably use our 'mind of Christ' so given His own that Paul states we mind-fully have, reading of/in 1 Cor. 2 , unable to do anything apart from His power?

2. Is our will , our human will, at all able to do anything contrarian to God's known chosen plan for our 'believer' life?

So, read below now another question to you, and, what answer do you believe is how you walk, talk, live life as a 'follower' of Him?

Do you do all the 'work' and He takes all the credit?
Does He do all the 'work' and you take all the credit?



You can answer this, too, if you missed my asking it.



I agree with this of your Signature: to God be the glory alone.


Just asking some questions to understand how we give God the glory, really .

I through Him .
He through me.

Which is right? What does Scripture state?

This is what the reform calvinist will say their appeal is..that God gets the glory. We of the Arminian persuation say this too, and when i have shown that Arminius said this, as did Wesley,and all other classical arminians..for some reason that was insufficent for them to believe it.

I guess the Calvinist stays reform because he or she believes that only reform theology truly says God is truly God,which is sadly untrue..Arminians are also very much about grace. Then again, many who bawlk about Arminian Theology never have read a single book about it, by an Arminian. They simply will believe what their calvinist contemporaries say that we are.

 

[zone]

1) Do you do all the 'work' and He takes all the credit?
2) Does He do all the 'work' and you take all the credit?

3) ________________________

 

[Abiding]

Abraham believed and it was counted or accredited to him for righteousness.
Anyone have a comment on the word credited, or accounted ? to him.

 

[PS]

Abraham believed and it was counted or accredited to him for righteousness.
Anyone have a comment on the word credited, or accounted ? to him.

Schofield says to see Phm_1:18 he says it is the same word. He also says counted, reckoned, imputed, means put to the account of. (as in banking terms, my explanation)

Really the question should be what is the IT that is counted to us? Barnes tells us "the word IT is the act of believing.

Phm 1:18 If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;

 

[loveme1]

Heavenly Father says :

Ezekiel 18

The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.5But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.10If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, 12Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.14Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,16Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. 18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

 

[mark54]

Heavenly Father says :
Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 18

[/B]

Heavenly Father says:


I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Ezekiel36

 

[loveme1]

Heavenly Father says:


I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Ezekiel36

Indeed...

There is much to learn from the Bible no need to go to any other seek and it shall be found.

Line upon on line.

 

[mark54]

Indeed...

There is much to learn from the Bible no need to go to any other seek and it shall be found.

Line upon on line.

The difference between our two quotes is:

Yours spoke of what the individual must do, mine spoke of what God does in the individual.
Which do you think will bring the best results?

 

[loveme1]

The difference between our two quotes is:

Yours spoke of what the individual must do, mine spoke of what God does in the individual.
Which do you think will bring the best results?

i'm quite sure we both quoted the same Heavenly Father from the same Bible.

I do not believe either is yours or mine....

For it is Written.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

phil 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

eph:2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Here we go again. Tried to repost a post I did Friday which was erased when upgrade went into affect. I guess cuts and pasts to do copy well in this new chat

 

[psychomom]

I've been given a lot to think about here.

Been reading Luther's "Bondage of the Will" wherein he states:

If, therefore, we are taught, and if we believe, that we ought not to know the necessary prescience of God, and the necessity of the things that are to take place, Christian faith is utterly destroyed, and the promises of God and the whole Gospel entirely fall to the ground; for the greatest and only consolation of Christians in their adversities, is the knowing that God lies not, but does all things immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, changed, or hindered.

Maybe that doesn't have as great an impact if one hasn't read all that comes before.


But it has given me more to think about.
If God is not sovereign, I am without a hope in the world.

 

[mark54]

i'm quite sure we both quoted the same Heavenly Father from the same Bible.

I do not believe either is yours or mine....

For it is Written.

True, Heavenly Father spoke both quotes, but your quote relates to the old covenant, mine the new. For example, God told Moses to tell the people:

Circumcise your hearts therefore, and do not be stiff necked any longer
Deut 10:16

That was what they must do

But under the new covenanant:

And circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, not by the written code
Rom2:29

This is what the Spirit does in the individual, big difference

 

[loveme1]

True, Heavenly Father spoke both quotes, but your quote relates to the old covenant, mine the new. For example, God told Moses to tell the people:

Circumcise your hearts therefore, and do not be stiff necked any longer
Deut 10:16

That was what they must do

But under the new covenanant:

And circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the Spirit, not by the written code
Rom2:29

This is what the Spirit does in the individual, big difference

i'm not sure i follow you? which quote?

We were conversing Ezekiel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

phil 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

eph:2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

did we choose?dont we see that salvation is a free gift plus faith is too?

If we are saved by faith. this would mean faith is a means by which we are saved is it not?

and about repentacne id say u cannot repent unless u have faith.
its the inworking of the holy spirit which gives genuine repentance to God.

it is the work of the HS which gives us a means to repent I agree. But he gives the same means to all people. He was not just sent to convict the elect of righteousness, judgment and sin, but the whole world. The people who repent are those who humble themselves. If one does not come to humility, they will never repent. No repentnance will bring about no faith. no faith = no salvation.

It is what you chose to do wiht the conviction of the HS which will determine if you are saved or not.

God is love like i said in earlier post regeneration is a complete change of nature in which we did nothing to acheieve it,we were made brand new in christ and it is through christ..but dont i have to accept him or do somthing for him to come in to my heart? we are not saved by any works or our doings.
how can that be love? isnt it forcing (v common question)
he is not forcing when God regenerates a man he has changed a whole nature of a person,and that person beholds what God has done for him ,he beholds his beauty and he can do nothing but bow down and worship him

There is a major problem with this line of thinking.

1. Why are wre dead? SIN
2. What then must be removed before we can be made alive? SIN or the penalty of sin (justification)

You have people regenerated before sin is removed. This is imposible. God can not deal with sin, thus intil the sin issue is removed, we will be separated from God (dead) and not be able to relate with him. The sin issue must be removed before we can ever be made alive.

let me give u a perfect example:

i have seen many ppl in nepal who have received christ,some come because they feel the need to expereince somthing new from the west,some wishing to get some money from missionaries(very common,rumour says if u become christian u gets dollars from abroad).i have seen some come in to christianity so that they can find good jobs in christian organisation and many more,am not lying i have seen this for a very long time.however nepal used to be a hindu kingdom,conversion into other religion brings persecution,many feel christianity is not a cup of my tea,many fall away, some stay and all they have is a shell of christianity that does nothing and has no fruit.

Why do they have no fruit? Because they do nto have faith. why do they have no faith? because they have not repented. They are still in self. and still have rejected the true gospel. for true faith WILL SHOW true work (fruit)

That is why John said, they departed (fell away) but not because they lost salvation. they never had it, for if they had it they never would have left (fallen away)

however i have also seen a person who has been found by God,ready to die now for christ,
i have seen 70 years old guy whos worshipped idols whos quit idol worshipping moment he got saved.
i have seen demon possessed person delivered and bow down to worship christ.i can go on and on,and i have seen men killed brand new christians who were burned alive for beleiving christ.

then why dont everyone get saved,my answer is i have no idea,will tell u when i find it
but this i know his ways are higher than ours.

And what separates these people from the above people? These people heard the same message. they were convicted by the same holy spirit of the same things. But unlike the former people. these people had some humility, truly repented. and truly trusted in Christ (faith) which is why you saw the change, because their sin was removed at the point of faith, and as a result they were born of the spirit (born again) and sealed by the spirit, and given the spirit to help them change.

the former people experienced non of this, because they did not have faith.

Rom 1 and eph 4 tells us why

They hid God in their heart and became darkenned because they loved sin more than God. They did not want a judgmental God. so they made their own Gods. and his the true one in their hearts. But as Romans 1 says, they will have no excuse. because they KNOW they are rightly judged. no matter how much they deny it.

 

[mark54]

i'm not sure i follow you? which quote?

We were conversing Ezekiel?

Below is your quote from Ezekiel. It speaks of the individual making of themselves a new heart and a new Spirit

Heavenly Father says :
Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 18

Below is my quote, it speaks of God GIVING THE INDIVIDUAL a new heart under the new covenant, and removing from them the heart of stone.
(Heb10:16&17)

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Ezekiel36