Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution
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The law has been written on our hearts and minds, meaning we in our hearts want to obey, the battle is spirit against flesh, not flesh against flesh.
we can do nothing in oursleves, we can have absolutely no confidence in the flesh(Phil3:3)
Obediance comes from, faith(in Christ obviously) Rom1:5
It is for the Christian to look away from themselves and to Christ. If you really intently look into what the good and Holy laws of God require of you, you must run to Christ and look to him and cling to him, for you will know he is your only hope.
You see, as long as you are looking to Christ, and trusting him through the Spirit to sanctify you, you cannot at the same time be looking to satisfy the desires of the flesh. The real sin, for the true Christian is when they take their eyes off Christ/look away from him and look to wilfully satisfy the desires of the flesh.
You don't need to look to literal laws, you need to follow after the Spirit
For the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, against such things there is no law
Gal5:22
But so many keep insisting the Christian looks to the literal law and strives to obey it
So can I ask you again?
Why does the Christian need to focus on the literal law and strive to obey it, when the law they are required to keep is writrten on their heart and mind. It's part of their DNA if you like, it's all over them, so why the need to look to the literal law/commands
We look to Christ for what our heart desires when we are led of the Spirit.
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Do you really believe it is my place to answer your last question?
If the Master ask His servant to Obey then they obey him, for they know He means Good always for them.
I say to you that the Messiah gives us a warning:
Matthew 7
The scriptures you use are not in place of the 10 Commandments but are an enhancement worked through Love.
That is why Heavenly Father said those that Love him keep them.
Like i said i'm not able to answer your questions for i'm not the Master, he said those things and i'm faithful to His words and may it be that i can be faithful always.
i have nothing other than what is in my heart to share and he that is able will judge me if it be not for His Glory.
He is Good and Loving Righteous and True Forever and my spirit is content there is nothing else that we can come to learn from our existence that is worth knowing.
If the Master ask His servant to Obey then they obey him, for they know He means Good always for them.
I say to you that the Messiah gives us a warning:
Matthew 7
The scriptures you use are not in place of the 10 Commandments but are an enhancement worked through Love.
That is why Heavenly Father said those that Love him keep them.
Like i said i'm not able to answer your questions for i'm not the Master, he said those things and i'm faithful to His words and may it be that i can be faithful always.
i have nothing other than what is in my heart to share and he that is able will judge me if it be not for His Glory.
He is Good and Loving Righteous and True Forever and my spirit is content there is nothing else that we can come to learn from our existence that is worth knowing.
It's a good question but perhaps this is a better one.
Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski,
Do any of you have the peace that passes all understanding? Do any of you have joy? Do you understand what it means to have the inside cleaned out as opposed to the outside which looks so much better,but does not do one thing to change the heart? Do you even begin to understand what He means when He talks about even the very thoughts will condem you? Do you understand that without one thing it is impossible to please Him? Do you understand what is at the heart of obedience? Jesus was very clear about it and He summed up all the laws and prophets in two commands. John was also very clear about it in his first letter,if you do not love your brothers and sisters,you do not love the Lord and are not His. So what is the motivation of your heart?
Do you understand what Jesus is saying here?
Luke 7
[SUP]36 [/SUP]When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. [SUP]37 [/SUP]A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. [SUP]38 [/SUP]As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”
“Tell me, teacher,” he said.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[SUP][c][/SUP] and the other fifty.[SUP]42 [/SUP]Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”
“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. [SUP]45 [/SUP]You did not give me a kiss,but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. [SUP]46 [/SUP]You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
[SUP]49 [/SUP]The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
[SUP]50[/SUP]Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski,
Do any of you have the peace that passes all understanding? Do any of you have joy? Do you understand what it means to have the inside cleaned out as opposed to the outside which looks so much better,but does not do one thing to change the heart? Do you even begin to understand what He means when He talks about even the very thoughts will condem you? Do you understand that without one thing it is impossible to please Him? Do you understand what is at the heart of obedience? Jesus was very clear about it and He summed up all the laws and prophets in two commands. John was also very clear about it in his first letter,if you do not love your brothers and sisters,you do not love the Lord and are not His. So what is the motivation of your heart?
Do you understand what Jesus is saying here?
Luke 7
[SUP]36 [/SUP]When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. [SUP]37 [/SUP]A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. [SUP]38 [/SUP]As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”
“Tell me, teacher,” he said.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[SUP][c][/SUP] and the other fifty.[SUP]42 [/SUP]Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”
“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. [SUP]45 [/SUP]You did not give me a kiss,but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. [SUP]46 [/SUP]You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. [SUP]47 [/SUP]Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
[SUP]49 [/SUP]The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
[SUP]50[/SUP]Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Obedience is meant to come from the heart of a child in love for their heavenly Father and they want to please Him. Love cannot sin,it is not under the law. Love can not go against His commands. If you love God you will not take His name in vain,you will not make graven images,you will no others before Him,and if you truly love God it will show in the love we have one for another,it'sat the very heart of what Jesus said "They will know you are MY DISCIPLES by the love you have one for another" It's what ties everything that Jesus said together and without love everything one does and says means nothing. Love is at the heart of obedience. We love because He first loved us and it is the evidence of a changed heart and mind.
Y
Jesus was sent for Israel only as stated in the bible and as stated in holy Quraan before 1400 years as well.that is just one example that the bible doesnt contradict Holy quraan except in what the bible contradicts it self. read matthew 10:5-6 , 15:24
if you want more examples google:bible contradictions or youtube: why christian praechers and priests converted to true religion of jesus islam
if you want more examples google:bible contradictions or youtube: why christian praechers and priests converted to true religion of jesus islam
P
no, no, no, Mark, you misunderstand completely!
these people do not commit sin...they make mistakes!
tsk tsk.
you must do ALL the reading, dear friend.
(sarcasm intended)
shallow. sin. concept.
i don't normally say harsh things, but this sickens me.
we happily accept the many blessings the reformers brought us,
and don't complain they're only 400 years old!
the fact we're not forced to pay a month's wages to a wealthy church
for the 'bone of a saint' so our sins can be forgiven,
yeah! we'll take it! (though it's only 400 years old)
but the ideas that don't appeal to our high concept of what WE do,
well, no, if it's not going to make us feel like WE are accomplishing some great thing,
no thanks, we like knowing we ARE holier than those wretched people who rely on the grace of God
and the Propitiation for sin and the Redeemer alone.
I don't get angry very often, but...
The idea we can obey perfectly is ludicrous, yet it IS what would be required, if these doctrines were true, and I thank God they are not.
The idea we can avoid the gross sins and overlook the 'smaller' ones, calling them mistakes, is nauseating.
The idea we are achieving the holiness of Christ is so very sacrilegious I don't know what to say.
Yet only the holiness, the righteousness of Christ can save us!
So, sure, we'll take the holiness of Christ for redemption, but after that, no thanks, we don't need it; we can do it ourselves.
grr---if ONE little one is led astray by these evil doctrines...well, God help you all.
And, please, once and for all, can people please get a handle on Romans 3:25??
If only your past sins are forgiven when God saves you,
you must crucify the Lord of glory afresh each and every time you sin, again and again.
oh--wait! I'm sorry, I forgot.
You don't sin--you make mistakes.
I have to go weep now.
I won't be back.
This constant warfare between those who are 'holy' accusing the rest of cheap grace and willful sin
and those who appeal only to the grace and mercy of the Most High God having to defend themselves is getting very, very tiresome.
May God have mercy on us all.
these people do not commit sin...they make mistakes!
tsk tsk.
you must do ALL the reading, dear friend.
(sarcasm intended)
shallow. sin. concept.
i don't normally say harsh things, but this sickens me.
we happily accept the many blessings the reformers brought us,
and don't complain they're only 400 years old!
the fact we're not forced to pay a month's wages to a wealthy church
for the 'bone of a saint' so our sins can be forgiven,
yeah! we'll take it! (though it's only 400 years old)
but the ideas that don't appeal to our high concept of what WE do,
well, no, if it's not going to make us feel like WE are accomplishing some great thing,
no thanks, we like knowing we ARE holier than those wretched people who rely on the grace of God
and the Propitiation for sin and the Redeemer alone.
I don't get angry very often, but...
The idea we can obey perfectly is ludicrous, yet it IS what would be required, if these doctrines were true, and I thank God they are not.
The idea we can avoid the gross sins and overlook the 'smaller' ones, calling them mistakes, is nauseating.
The idea we are achieving the holiness of Christ is so very sacrilegious I don't know what to say.
Yet only the holiness, the righteousness of Christ can save us!
So, sure, we'll take the holiness of Christ for redemption, but after that, no thanks, we don't need it; we can do it ourselves.
grr---if ONE little one is led astray by these evil doctrines...well, God help you all.
And, please, once and for all, can people please get a handle on Romans 3:25??
If only your past sins are forgiven when God saves you,
you must crucify the Lord of glory afresh each and every time you sin, again and again.
oh--wait! I'm sorry, I forgot.
You don't sin--you make mistakes.
I have to go weep now.
I won't be back.
This constant warfare between those who are 'holy' accusing the rest of cheap grace and willful sin
and those who appeal only to the grace and mercy of the Most High God having to defend themselves is getting very, very tiresome.
May God have mercy on us all.
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Y
Jesus was sent for Israel only as stated in the bible and as stated in Nobel Quraan before 1400 years as well.that is just one example that the bible doesn't contradict Holy Quraan except in what the bible contradicts it self. read Matthew 10:5-6 , 15:24
If you want more examples google : bible contradictions or youtube: why christian preachers and priests converted to true religion of Jesus the Christ ...That is indeed Islam. Since God is one then his religion is one.Islam is the only religion in the world that believe in Jesus , Mohammed , Moses and all other prophet stated in Holy Book and Nobel Quraan. Quraan is the last message from God to the world so read it and then reflect the truth.
If you want more examples google : bible contradictions or youtube: why christian preachers and priests converted to true religion of Jesus the Christ ...That is indeed Islam. Since God is one then his religion is one.Islam is the only religion in the world that believe in Jesus , Mohammed , Moses and all other prophet stated in Holy Book and Nobel Quraan. Quraan is the last message from God to the world so read it and then reflect the truth.
That is because the rebellion ceases in a true repentance. Very simple.
The individual who was walking their own way in defiance to God forsakes that walk when they repent. Thus when the are sprinkled with the blood their conscience is purged of their PAST REBELLION because they are NO LONGER in rebellion anymore.
If they were to go out the next day and willfully fornicate or commit adultery or whatever sin of the flesh then no sacrifice remains because the blood of Jesus Christ does not cover ongoing willful sin.
Afterall one must be "walking in the light as He is in the light" for the blood to cleanse one of ALL sin. If one has been cleansed then they have been cleansed, not only of the past criminal record but of the root cause of sin as well, that being iniquity in the heart.
To go out and WILLFULLY sin is to put Jesus Christ back on the cross and treat the blood as if it has no cleansing power.
When a judge offers pardon to a criminal and wipes clean his record then that criminal is free to go. If that criminal goes out an re-offends is he immune from future prosecution? Of course not. Why is it any different with God?
The Bible plainly teaches this...
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Clearly it is the PAST TRANSGRESSION which is forgiven in Eze 18. If one turns back to wickedness and dies in that wickedness then Ezekiel warns of the doom of that individual.
It takes a theologian to twist that around backwards and thus teach that "you can sin and not surely die."
It's not what the Bible teaches.
Conventional theology, especially the reformed school, have completely put the truth on its head. If one has been redeemed from the bondage of sin and had been made pure they are deemed a heretic, but if one is the Romans wretch, "sold under sin," sinning in thought word and deeds everyday then they are godly.
The truth is the rebellion ceases. The sins rooted in iniquity stop. Those in Christ have PURE hearts. They are not defiled, depraved and wicked. Only Satan would teach that those in Christ remain defiled, depraved and wicked. Christian's are godly holy people, a light to the world. They fear God and walk in His precepts, loving God and their neighbour. It does not mean they are perfect in the sense of never missing the mark, it simply means when they miss the mark it is not rooted in iniquity, they are not enslaved to the lusts of the flesh. They have been crucified with Christ and live unto God.
The individual who was walking their own way in defiance to God forsakes that walk when they repent. Thus when the are sprinkled with the blood their conscience is purged of their PAST REBELLION because they are NO LONGER in rebellion anymore.
If they were to go out the next day and willfully fornicate or commit adultery or whatever sin of the flesh then no sacrifice remains because the blood of Jesus Christ does not cover ongoing willful sin.
Afterall one must be "walking in the light as He is in the light" for the blood to cleanse one of ALL sin. If one has been cleansed then they have been cleansed, not only of the past criminal record but of the root cause of sin as well, that being iniquity in the heart.
To go out and WILLFULLY sin is to put Jesus Christ back on the cross and treat the blood as if it has no cleansing power.
When a judge offers pardon to a criminal and wipes clean his record then that criminal is free to go. If that criminal goes out an re-offends is he immune from future prosecution? Of course not. Why is it any different with God?
The Bible plainly teaches this...
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Clearly it is the PAST TRANSGRESSION which is forgiven in Eze 18. If one turns back to wickedness and dies in that wickedness then Ezekiel warns of the doom of that individual.
It takes a theologian to twist that around backwards and thus teach that "you can sin and not surely die."
It's not what the Bible teaches.
Conventional theology, especially the reformed school, have completely put the truth on its head. If one has been redeemed from the bondage of sin and had been made pure they are deemed a heretic, but if one is the Romans wretch, "sold under sin," sinning in thought word and deeds everyday then they are godly.
The truth is the rebellion ceases. The sins rooted in iniquity stop. Those in Christ have PURE hearts. They are not defiled, depraved and wicked. Only Satan would teach that those in Christ remain defiled, depraved and wicked. Christian's are godly holy people, a light to the world. They fear God and walk in His precepts, loving God and their neighbour. It does not mean they are perfect in the sense of never missing the mark, it simply means when they miss the mark it is not rooted in iniquity, they are not enslaved to the lusts of the flesh. They have been crucified with Christ and live unto God.
i agree.
since these people are new christians, and i have been at this some time, i would like to know how i got it so wrong.
i had no idea i was a licentious antinomian greasy grace willful rebel calvin-loving antisemitic not-walking-in-the-Spirit carnal person headed for hell.
naturally i want to rectify that immediately.
presumably your questions were readily and truthfully addressed, for all our sake.
so far i see nothing.
just like all the other times they've been asked.
carrying on....in the hope of learning from these new christians.
since these people are new christians, and i have been at this some time, i would like to know how i got it so wrong.
i had no idea i was a licentious antinomian greasy grace willful rebel calvin-loving antisemitic not-walking-in-the-Spirit carnal person headed for hell.
naturally i want to rectify that immediately.
presumably your questions were readily and truthfully addressed, for all our sake.
so far i see nothing.
just like all the other times they've been asked.
carrying on....in the hope of learning from these new christians.
does this individual who says he has been saved approx. one year actually come forward truthfully and say he himself has done the following?
lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness
receive with meekness the implanted word
STOP SINNING and by sinning I mean WILLFUL KNOWN TRANSGRESSION
The disobedience ends
The known sins stop
The rebellion has to stop
Stop sinning
He who does what is right is righteous
still no direct answer to Mark's questions.
perhaps we actually get down to it.
lay aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness
receive with meekness the implanted word
STOP SINNING and by sinning I mean WILLFUL KNOWN TRANSGRESSION
The disobedience ends
The known sins stop
The rebellion has to stop
Stop sinning
He who does what is right is righteous
still no direct answer to Mark's questions.
perhaps we actually get down to it.
So we don't have to do any works/deeds, just tell others we have stopped sinning and crucified our flesh?
But we could fib and say that couldn't we
But we could fib and say that couldn't we
so far, they have wiggle room to say claim they weren't "fibbing" < 'mistakes; oversights; other catch-alls'. i'm fine with those. as one poster has made clear to us all- SIN IS SIN IS SIN.
it's the sin they are on about, and why don't they answer directly concerning themselves?
do any of them go on to say without wavering they are without sin and perfectly righteous?
two posters deny substitutionary atonement AND imputed righteousness, so they must be perfectly sinless and perfectly righteous in themselves according to Law.
the other may possibly have received a Second Blessing, but i don't see that yet.
still no direct testimonies in answer to your simple, direct and personal questions.