Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

[mark54]

no it doesn't. it means you don't have to worry about trying to pay back God for breaking His laws and trusting that God truly forgave you and you know WHY: because Jesus died for the atonement of our sins. we don't do the works of God to atone for our sins but out of love and thanksgiving that GOD already atoned for us. we do not do it to pay back God but in order to show our love for HIM and the rest of humanity.

you just don't understand how penal subsitution works and what they are truly teaching because you and others just hear half the message and then add other things to what anyone teaches, such as lying and saying they teach it is ok to kill in the future.

you are either ignorant or willfully blind to the fact that they speak to GOD"S children who have HIS HOLY SPIRIT to guide them and keep them from such transgressions. the sermon is about forgiveness and taking away fear of people who think God would abandon them if they make mistakes.

you and your friends rant and rave and do not see that you beat God's children up with your condemning words. calling them wolves, making them doubt that they are ever saved because as you call it they do NOT always "meet the mark"

now how can you tell if their not "meeting the mark" is due to being rooted in iniquity or not?

the guy preaches that if they are in CHrist then their hearts are new and they can always go before God and ask for forgiveness. they never have to worry that GOD will give up on them.

why do YOU preach against such a message?

You have to understand the mindeset of a certain branch of Christianity
They fully accept that when you turn to Christ the slate is wiped clean, you stand utterly forgiven, cleansed of your sin(though from Skinski's writing I am not sure if he actually even believes that)
The problem is, if you don't remain in this sinless(or pure) state you are in danger of God casting you out
Some churches will give you a certain amount of time to shape up, attain to a certain level of purity/holiness/perfection, others excpect it immediately.
Every time you slip, or fail to remain in rhis pure undefiled state you are hit with guilt and shame, and you are hit hard. You panic, fear that you are no longer pure enough for God, and he will cast you out. You desperately cry out for fogiveness and start over again striving to remain in a sinless and totally pure state

Though they won't admit it, it is a gospel of saved by faith kept by works, your own works, which are dependant on your own strivings and effort. This Gospel leads to no lasting peace. You can put on an act in church on Sunday, but that's it., you know deep down its just an act.

But because there are inevitably, even if fleeting times you feel you are in this state of sinless perfection due to yor efforts, you hurl the stones at others, you demand of them absolute purity, closing your eyes to the times you so often fail yourself to achieve it
And as it is a Gospel of works, pride is inevitable, and demands are made that the person who is making them does not even try to attain to themselves
The are single mindily focused on one issue, all else is immeterial, no works are required in heloping others for example, just preach the word of God according to your beliefs, and endlessly strive(and at times fail) to achieve sinless perfection. It is a torurtured soul who follows its path

It is a Gospel of works/personal goodness according to human effort. Though countless scriptures will be produced to support what they strive to attain for

problem is, it is having much of the literal letter, without a true understanding of the heart of what that letter contains

 

[Ariel82]

In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance, it is an absurd position to hold. That is one reason that the pastor in the video above is a dangerous wolf who is clothed as a sheep.

Here he is giving people assurance that they can go out and sin tomorrow and remain justified. What a liar. What a deceiver. He is a minister of Satan.

again with the lies. HE DOESN"T TEACH THAT. he has sermons about sin and the need for repentance but you would rather just condemn him as a wolf than actually listen to them.

 

[zone]

And explaining away what law really means. We must keep it ALL. No stuffing about different laws or parts of the law or "that was OT law". ALL. Every jot and tittle. Fail in one point - guilty of all! Ole' Maimonides got his count to 613. But that's a low count, its more. ALL!

Good news is there is a man who actually did this once...

bu the free gift of the Work of that One Man doesn't apply to them, since they don't believe the sin of the first man (Adam) applies to them.

they are Pelagians.

this is a concoction of Roman Catholicism (which we may have noticed they appeal to); Judaism; Gnosticism and Methodism (pragmatism and charismaticism).

 

[Ariel82]

here a verse about forgiveness of future sins:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

I agree it is not "automatic" but its guarenteed because "if anyone sins" we have JESUS to argue our case for us. all we have to do is repent and ask Him to help us overcome those sins. we look to JESUS not anything WE do but what HE does for us because of His love for us.

here is another video by one Skinski calls a "wolf" where he tells people to go to Jesus and repent.

Understanding your identity crisis - YouTube

where he preaches against idolatry and tells people what it means to be In Christ.

Published on Jan 15, 2013
In a pastoral word from Pastor Mark, he shares a pattern he's seen in counseling: you live in fear that your identity idolatry will fail you or be taken from you, your identity idolatry crumbles under the weight of being in God's place in your life, your identity idolatry begins to crumble and you become panicked, and your identity idolatry fails. Then you have two options: turn to Jesus for your identity or you just pick a new identity idolatry.

" I items
D duties
O others
L longing
S suffering"

 

[zone]

In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance

CONFESSION

this poster knows nothing about God.

 

[mark54]

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [SUP]24[/SUP]For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Heb9:23-26

For by one sacrifice he has made forever perfect those who are BEING made holy
Heb:10:14

 

[zone]

But "danger" doesn't alter Jesus' NT revelation (Heb 1:1-2) in Ro 5:18 that we are made righteous, not that be "become" righteous, by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

". . .through the obedience of one man (Jesus, not me), the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:18)

Elin, this is what willfully sinful proud true antinomians (no Law, against the Law, degrading the Law) can not stand.
that Jesus Christ is our Righteousness.

they hate it.

this is why the gospel is an offense. it's not about them.

 

[zone]

Also if penal sub was true, then it totally negates biblical repentance, so as you can see error builds on more error, producing a totally different gospel!

Gal 1:6 I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel,
Gal 1:7 which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

does anyone see the tragic and disgraceful nullification of the Work of Jesus Christ this poster makes?

more Judaizing < their teacher heretic Mike DeSario is a Judaizer.

another gospel.

i wonder why they don't go all the way and emasculate themselves.

Galatians 3
Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”b 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”g meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christh that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Sons of God

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[zone]

Good observations from a man who sees the great hyprocracy throughout the church system today:

The old adage that there is strength in numbers applies here. If the Vast Majority of people all tends to agree together that something is true the likelihood of acceptance is assured. So if God is perceived as this Benevolent being of absolute perfection smiling down on those who ‘acknowledge’ His existence, that will be the mutual understanding of the people who believe in Him. Defining the deeper things of religion and theology can be sorted out by the scholars who dedicate their lives to the study of Divine matters. Everyone else can ‘let go and let God’.

It appears to be universally accepted among people who claim belief in God that He excuses their short comings and wrong doings as ‘being’ human. In other words; since no one is perfect nor can anyone achieve God-like perfection, man is absolved of his sinful condition IF he ‘trusts’ in Christ as his Savior. God forgives and forgets and that’s the end of it. Therefore when a person who has ‘trusted’ (or believes) slips up (as anyone who is human will do) they are ALREADY exonerated of blame. Thus fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, covetous, sodomites, homosexuals, thieves, filthy talkers, the selfish and double-minded are automatically released from their responsibility to STOP doing these things or suffer the consequences.

Otherwise stated: ‘To the believers there are NO consequences!’
YET in life there are HUGE penalties for these things. Whether it is of criminal offense or plain immorality, there’s a price to pay for hurting yourself or others through irresponsible acts of selfish behavior. WHY else would people strive to keep these things hidden and do them in secret? It’s absurd to assume that God will not punish wrong doers just because they ‘believe’ in Him. That would be like granting someone carte blanche (full permission) to violate every law of human decency known to man!

People who profess belief in God are quick to condemn murder, child abuse, acts of violence and various other crimes, but they think God is going to give them a pass on adultery, fornication, lewdness, pornography viewing and other vulgarities. Wouldn’t your own human sense of reason illustrate the foolishness of this? You come to church in all sincerity, sing, pray, cry and believe deep down in your heart that you’re trying so hard to serve God although you constantly fail time after time. But you have a warped sense of Judgment! While your sins are viewed as ‘mistakes’ excused by God, you think of the ‘Wicked’ spoken of constantly in Scripture as people FAR worse than yourself but NEVER as sinners just like you in need of bitter and broken repentance.

"Good observations from a man who sees the great hyprocracy throughout the church system today"

does this poster name that source?

While your sins are viewed as ‘mistakes’ excused by God, you think of the ‘Wicked’ spoken of constantly in Scripture as people FAR worse than yourself but NEVER as sinners

 

[zone]

no, no, no, Mark, you misunderstand completely!

these people do not commit sin...they make mistakes!

tsk tsk.

you must do ALL the reading, dear friend.
(sarcasm intended)

shallow. sin. concept.
i don't normally say harsh things, but this sickens me.

we happily accept the many blessings the reformers brought us,
and don't complain they're only 400 years old!
the fact we're not forced to pay a month's wages to a wealthy church
for the 'bone of a saint' so our sins can be forgiven,
yeah! we'll take it! (though it's only 400 years old)
but the ideas that don't appeal to our high concept of what WE do,
well, no, if it's not going to make us feel like WE are accomplishing some great thing,
no thanks, we like knowing we ARE holier than those wretched people who rely on the grace of God
and the Propitiation for sin and the Redeemer alone.
I don't get angry very often, but...


The idea we can obey perfectly is ludicrous, yet it IS what would be required, if these doctrines were true, and I thank God they are not.
The idea we can avoid the gross sins and overlook the 'smaller' ones, calling them mistakes, is nauseating.
The idea we are achieving the holiness of Christ is so very sacrilegious I don't know what to say.
Yet only the holiness, the righteousness of Christ can save us!
So, sure, we'll take the holiness of Christ for redemption, but after that, no thanks, we don't need it; we can do it ourselves.
grr---if ONE little one is led astray by these evil doctrines...well, God help you all.

And, please, once and for all, can people please get a handle on Romans 3:25??
If only your past sins are forgiven when God saves you,
you must crucify the Lord of glory afresh each and every time you sin, again and again.

oh--wait! I'm sorry, I forgot.
You don't sin--you make mistakes.

I have to go weep now.
I won't be back.
This constant warfare between those who are 'holy' accusing the rest of cheap grace and willful sin
and those who appeal only to the grace and mercy of the Most High God having to defend themselves is getting very, very tiresome.
May God have mercy on us all.

Ellie...
you feel revulsion at these ideas because they are coming from wolves.
not sheep.

i'm glad you have seen what they do for what it is - Hebrews 6 applies to them - the irony is, that is their foundation and reason for doing what they do. because they are pelagians, they have no truth in them, and are exactly the people in Heb 6.

"And, please, once and for all, can people please get a handle on Romans 3:25??
If only your past sins are forgiven when God saves you,
you must crucify the Lord of glory afresh each and every time you sin, again and again."
- my sister ellie

 

[Elin]

Penal Substitution is basically the teaching that the believer swapped places with Jesus in a judicial sense.

The wages of sin is death (which is true). Therefore Jesus had all the sins of believers literally transferred to His account so that when God looked at Jesus He saw a guilty sinner. Jesus was then punished by God for being a guilty sinner. Thus the punishment is no longer due to the believer.

Attached to Penal Substitution is the teaching that the "obedience of Jesus" is literally transferred to the believers account. So in other words the criminal record of the sinner is transferred to Jesus and He was punished for it. The perfect obedient track record of Jesus is transferred to the believer. Thus Jesus is a Penal Substitute for the sinner in a judicial sense.

The problem with this teaching is that it is not in the Bible Jesus did not teach it nor did anyone else.

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

". . .through the obedience of one man, the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:19)

Jesus was offered WITHOUT SPOT on our behalf. He "bore" our sin and suffered,

He bore our sin as a sin offering.
Our sin was laid on him just as in the OT sacrifices the sin was transferred to (laid on)
the animal (Lev 1:4, 4:4), which then bore the sin of the sinner, and took its death penalty (Ro 6:23),
punishment, in the sinner's place.

The OT sacrificial system was given to foreshadow the meaning of Jesus' NT sacrifice, not just in words,
but in actions and events, which would secure the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice, and prevent someone's
later systematic theology from altering its meaning by messing with the words of Scripture.

Jesus bore the death penalty for the guilt of my sin, just as the animal sacrifices bore the death penalty for the guilt of sin transferred to them in the OT.

He WAS NOT punished by God for our sin. Sin is moral and the guilt cannot be transferred to someone else.

Except for all that guilt which God required to be transferred to the sacrificial animal in the OT sacrifices,
which were a picture/pattern/type/shadow of the meaning of the NT sacrifice of Jesus.

If the guilt was transferred to Jesus and He was punished instead of us then it means that God does not forgive those sins but punished another instead.

"Forgiveness" is an accounting term, which means cancellation of the debt, by payment in the
name of the debtor, or by the holder of the debt who absorbs it himself.
But cancellation/forgiveness is based on payment.

In this case, payment was made by Jesus in the name of the debtor, and the debt was cancelled/forgiven.

The real kicker with this doctrine is that it is only 400 years old. You will not find any reference to Penal Substitution in the early church.

You will find it in the early church in Ro 3:25-26.

You can't get any earlier than that.

Penal Substitution serves to give a sinner an assurance that they have been reconciled to God (through the judicial swap) while they remain in rebellion.

You present a lot of verbage in ignorance of the meaning of substitutionary penal atonement.

Why didn't the early church teach it?

It did, in Ro 3:25-26.

 

[zone]

"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)

". . .through the obedience of one man, the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:19)


He bore our sin as a sin offering.
Our sin was laid on him just as in the OT sacrifices the sin was transferred to (laid on)
the animal (Lev 1:4, 4:4), which then bore the sin of the sinner, and took its death penalty (Ro 6:23),
punishment, in the sinner's place.

The OT sacrificial system was given to foreshadow the meaning of Jesus' NT sacrifice, not just in words,
but in actions and events, which would secure the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice, and prevent someone's
later systematic theology from altering its meaning by messing with the words of Scripture.

Jesus bore the death penalty for the guilt of my sin, just as the animal sacrifices bore the death penalty for the guilt of sin transferred to them in the OT.


Except for all that guilt which God required to be transferred to the sacrificial animal in the OT sacrifices,
which were a picture/pattern/type/shadow of the meaning of the NT sacrifice of Jesus.


"Forgiveness" is an accounting term, which means cancellation of the debt, by payment in the
name of the debtor, or by the holder of the debt who absorbs it himself.
But cancellation/forgiveness is based on payment.

In this case, payment was made by Jesus in the name of the debtor, and the debt was cancelled/forgiven.


You will find it in the early church in Ro 3:25-26.

You can't get any earlier than that.


You present a lot of verbage in ignorance of the meaning of substitutionary penal atonement.


It did, in Ro 3:25-26.

Gospel 101.
for those who need it.
not for those who don't.

 

[zone]

And explaining away what law really means. We must keep it ALL. No stuffing about different laws or parts of the law or "that was OT law". ALL. Every jot and tittle. Fail in one point - guilty of all! Ole' Maimonides got his count to 613. But that's a low count, its more. ALL!

Good news is there is a man who actually did this once...

another nice avatar

these people have no idea what Holiness is.
no clue why man needs a Mediator.


Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 6:3
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 7:1
Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

Galatians 3:24
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

 

[Skinski7]

Rom 3:25 says not a word about Jesus being your penal substitute and bearing the wrath of God in your place. In fact it actually contradicts it because verse 25 specifically states that it is the PAST SINS that are remitted. If Jesus literally bore the punishment for all literal sin as a substitute then Paul would not have used the word "past." Nor would Peter refer to the purging of "past" sins in 2Pet 1:9.

What you are all doing is reading a 16th century invention into the text. You want to the text to support this doctrine because you have become accustomed to it.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

G629 - Redemption - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

G2435 - Propitiation - hilastērion
Neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): - mercyseat, propitiation.

G3929 - Remission - paresis
From G2935; praetermission, that is, toleration: - remission.

The penalty of sin is freely remitted through the blood of Christ. The penalty is not "paid" as Penal Substitution teaches. Yes Jesus "paid the price" in the sense that He "purchased us with His blood" but He most certainly did not pay the penalty due the sinner. The wages of sin is eternal damnation and Jesus was not eternally damned.

In fact this parable of Jesus completely refutes Penal Substition...

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In that parable the debt was freely forgiven. No-one made the payment on behalf of the servant. When the servant did not live up to the conditions of being forgiven (forgive us as we forgive others) then the debt was reinstated.

Penal Substitution logically necessitates the unconditional eternal security doctrine because once the payment has been made it cannot be due again. This is why many teachers will say that future sin only breaks fellowship and can lead to a loss of rewards.

Yet the Bible says things like this...

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The debate on whether unconditional eternal security is true or not is simply a fruit of underlying error. When the fundamental errors of Penal Substitution and being Born a Sinner are exposed the unconditional eternal security doctrine collapses like a house of cards.

It is true that the sins of the people were laid on the animal sacrifice under the Old Covenant. Yet this was a figurative transfer, the animal did not really become guilty and the animal was not then punished for that guilt. The sins were laid upon the animals and it was offered up as a sacrifice for sin. There is no mention anywhere of a judicial exchange whereby God literally pours out His wrath on the sacrifice. That is an invention of men who added a judicial aspect to Anselm's Satisfaction Model and thereby redefined salvation to be an abstract legal exchange whereby the aspect of heart purity was eliminated from the plan of redemption.

The sacrificial system of the Old Testament was a shadow of redemption in Jesus Christ. Where one is redeemed from all iniquity and made pure. Not some forensic legal transaction that leaves you defiled, carnal and sold under sin. That is blasphemy.

Dig into these things.

 

[mark54]

If Jesus only died for sins committed before we became Christians, how come we are not under law?
How is this possible?

Sin is transgression of the law(1John3:4)

 

[Skinski7]

If Jesus only died for sins committed before we became Christians, how come we are not under law?
How is this possible?

Sin is transgression of the law(1John3:4)

A true Christian is not under the law because the law is for the sinner.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The law was the schoolmaster that brought people to Christ.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

After faith is come there is no longer any need for a schoolmaster. Why?

Because LOVE FULFILLS THE LAW and FAITH WORKS BY LOVE.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


A Christian has submitted themselves to the righteousness of God by a faith that works by love. Thus they are DOERS of the word. Jesus Christ is the END OF THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR THOSE WHO TRULY BELIEVE.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Which is why we are justified by faith like it says in Gal 3:24.

There is liberty in Christ, yet that liberty is to love one another.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

The letter kills but the Spirit brings life.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

So it is by being IN CHRIST that we are not only set free from the law of sin and death...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

We are also set free from the LETTER of the law to walk after the Spirit...

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Whereby, walking after the Spirit by a faith that works by love, we FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is established in our hearts by faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.



That is why a Christian is not under the law. A Christian is a law unto themselves because they abide in Jesus Christ having put on the nature of Christ. Paul used an example of Gentiles who walked in righteousness who were not under the law.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Which is how the righteousness of a Christian exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Not a forensic transfer of the righteousness of Jesus to you. Not this Penal Substitution nonsense. Real righteousness flowing from a pure heart that is completely yielded to God. Real MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

It is not pride. It is not saving yourself. It is not self righteousness. It is the plan of God for those who believe. We really are redeemed from ALL INIQUITY and MADE PURE. Just like the Bible says.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



Don't let the teachings of men induce you into dismissing what the Scripture plainly teaches.

 

[mark54]

Do you really believe it is my place to answer your last question?

Difficult to have a debate otherwise

If the Master ask His servant to Obey then they obey him, for they know He means Good always for them.

Rom6:14, Rom3:31

I say to you that the Messiah gives us a warning:

Matthew 7



The scriptures you use are not in place of the 10 Commandments but are an enhancement worked through Love.

The scriptures I use say the law is written on our hearts, not on tablets of stone

That is why Heavenly Father said those that Love him keep them.

If a person does not keep all of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels, or strive to obey them all, does this therefore mean they do not love him?

Like i said i'm not able to answer your questions for i'm not the Master, he said those things and i'm faithful to His words and may it be that i can be faithful always.

i have nothing other than what is in my heart to share and he that is able will judge me if it be not for His Glory.

He is Good and Loving Righteous and True Forever and my spirit is content there is nothing else that we can come to learn from our existence that is worth knowing.

I am truly glad you have contentment, many do not
Can I ask?
Which denomination do you belong to?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A true Christian is not under the law because the law is for the sinner.

so if this is the cae. then how can sin commited after one is already "born of God" be forgiven? would not the first sin we commit after make us unacceptable to god and thus we be eternally condemned. because there would be no hope of forgiveness or atonment for that sin?

Scripture says without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness. Thus, if Christs blood only washes previous sin, and we, as you say, are not under law after, and no blood is spilt for atonement, we have no hope of forgiveness..

 

[zone]

If Jesus only died for sins committed before we became Christians, how come we are not under law?
How is this possible?

Sin is transgression of the law(1John3:4)

dispensationalism strikes again.

 

[mark54]

A true Christian is not under the law because the law is for the sinner.

.

Once again

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it become evident that we ourselvers are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker.(Gal2:16&17

What about these sins Skinski?
Does a Christian go to hell with the sins Paul is speaking of above?