Total Depravity vs. Freewill
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i'm not convinced i know the intent of your "pitting" so to speak.
I believe that the message is in support of the message and so on and so on.
For the Messiah told them to: Repent and Sin no more.
He said to Teach and Keep the Commandments.
i will not pit the word of Heavenly Father for it is not good to do so for there is much more written.
p.s sorry if it is a little messy trying to grip the new format....
I believe that the message is in support of the message and so on and so on.
For the Messiah told them to: Repent and Sin no more.
He said to Teach and Keep the Commandments.
i will not pit the word of Heavenly Father for it is not good to do so for there is much more written.
p.s sorry if it is a little messy trying to grip the new format....
There should be no need to repeat the underlying basis for the discussed topic and move it back to square one again. You are already well aware of its basics. Why then reiterate the key point in this now and then? Because justification is the crucial key issue on which christianity hangs. Luther thought this issue was so important that he made it the dividing line betweeen true and false christianity and upon which christianity stands or falls. Without a proper understanding of this issue there is in reality no christian faith at all, he had it. And I agree 100% with this.
And there's no secret that we have many souls, also at this board, who places justification at least in some part, however big or small, in the sinner and not in Christ alone. Justification by faith is a central term in pauline writings, see for example Rom.3:24,4:25,5:1,9,8:30,33, 1Cor.6:11, Gal.3:8, Tit.3:7 etc. But there are many who teach what they ought not by teaching against this and believes that justification is the same as say repentance and daily penance. Justification in such a view is always mixed with dispositional sanctification. But justification is not a moral transformation of man, but a legal act outside of man.
Then justification is not any work of man but through a legal act through imputation, as it is written in Rom.4:6 "God imputeth righteousness without works". How can a justification that occurs for the sinner occur without deeds, but by imputation? It occurs outside of man through an act of judgment before God. And, contrary to what those who, in effect, accuses God to be unjust, God is wholly just in doing this (Rom.3:21-26,5:1,9).
So, if you really truly believe in atonement being made wholly outside of man, then forget about freewillism (and prevenient grace).
And there's no secret that we have many souls, also at this board, who places justification at least in some part, however big or small, in the sinner and not in Christ alone. Justification by faith is a central term in pauline writings, see for example Rom.3:24,4:25,5:1,9,8:30,33, 1Cor.6:11, Gal.3:8, Tit.3:7 etc. But there are many who teach what they ought not by teaching against this and believes that justification is the same as say repentance and daily penance. Justification in such a view is always mixed with dispositional sanctification. But justification is not a moral transformation of man, but a legal act outside of man.
Then justification is not any work of man but through a legal act through imputation, as it is written in Rom.4:6 "God imputeth righteousness without works". How can a justification that occurs for the sinner occur without deeds, but by imputation? It occurs outside of man through an act of judgment before God. And, contrary to what those who, in effect, accuses God to be unjust, God is wholly just in doing this (Rom.3:21-26,5:1,9).
So, if you really truly believe in atonement being made wholly outside of man, then forget about freewillism (and prevenient grace).
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A
Ok this is the Post i was responding to: you said
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The issue boils down to a far more crucial issue then just trying to "solve" a so called problem of "harmonizing God's sovereignity and human free will". We either have justification in Christ alone or we have it in man alone. It cannot be both and they can never mix. John 19:28,30, Col. 1:22, Rom. 5:9.
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To me thats an obsurd statement, im not a bible scholar ill admit but i hardly can grasp
the idea that for God to require a man to repent and receive which is all through the bible
that that makes him(the man) fully atoning/justifying for himself alone. In fact its amazing to me you would even
float a post like that.
Besides there are more points being made in this thread that what you see fit.
This really isnt about justification to you i know because we chatted about this
months ago. Man cant justify himself.
Your contention is that man gets to choose and prevenient grace (im not big on freewill, to loose a word)
Which from what i understand your position is that Your regenerated(bornagain) first then given faith, then
believe and receive which is contrary to scripture....please correct where i see your position wrong.
And no there is no logical or biblical bases for me to forget any prevenient grace, to accept that
all of the atonement was done wholly outside of me. And a free gift. And i find no reason to find God unjust
thats your dealy.
Ive just been running this through my mind the last couple days maybe you can speak on it cuz i think
it might be related to my position.
Abraham believed and was credited for it for righteousness.
Whats with the credit or accounting?
Im not saying Abraham deserved or earned or did a thing to atone/justify himself
but he did something that caused his justification which came only as a gift.
B
Thank you for answering my question. So I am wondering if you don't believe in free will... how can someone percieve they need God if they are enslaved to sin??? Jesus says YOU HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN... you have children right... surely you know that they are't just BORN... but rather must be concieved... go thru a period of growth.... and are born and then continue to grow??? The born again teaching does have "conception" and "pregnancy" time built in to it by inferrence... and wouldn't that harmonize with prevenient grace??? further when one considers the parabal of the sower... isn't that a fairly CLEAR instruction from Jesus regarding the principals of freewill and/or prevenient grace???
A
Tribesman, please understand that i didnt pick a view or a group
or anything like that. Then come to a forum and argue for my team.
Im a very sincere believer that cant accept a view i dont find
biblical...and reserve the right to change up at any time.
So dont ever think id talk to you merely to contend. But i
would if i didnt understand how you can hold your view
being so different than mine, with the same bible
or anything like that. Then come to a forum and argue for my team.
Im a very sincere believer that cant accept a view i dont find
biblical...and reserve the right to change up at any time.
So dont ever think id talk to you merely to contend. But i
would if i didnt understand how you can hold your view
being so different than mine, with the same bible
So Abraham had faith.
(Which he did)
When was that gift of obedience(through faith) required of him?
At the beginning of his journey out of his home country?
Or after he had lived many years under the hand of Jehovah?
(When did God require him to offer up the one jewel of his received earthly gifts-(Isaac)?
Was it at the beginning of his journey,....or closer the end?
This is a hint of how faith is a gift, and not independently conjured.
(God wouldn't have required him to give his promised son early in his walk, Abraham's faith was not built up enough.)
The whole of the matter is grace,.....even faith is by grace. - (This is why it's so important to spread the gospel).
As Paul said, even the believer's faith is through grace, - (lest any man should boast).
See how his faith GREW?
(Which he did)
When was that gift of obedience(through faith) required of him?
At the beginning of his journey out of his home country?
Or after he had lived many years under the hand of Jehovah?
(When did God require him to offer up the one jewel of his received earthly gifts-(Isaac)?
Was it at the beginning of his journey,....or closer the end?
This is a hint of how faith is a gift, and not independently conjured.
(God wouldn't have required him to give his promised son early in his walk, Abraham's faith was not built up enough.)
The whole of the matter is grace,.....even faith is by grace. - (This is why it's so important to spread the gospel).
As Paul said, even the believer's faith is through grace, - (lest any man should boast).
See how his faith GREW?
Repent, AND TURN YOURSELVES from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and MAKE YOU A NEW HEART AND A NEW SPIRIT : for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore TURN YOURSELVES , and live ye.
I WILL sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I WILL cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART AND PUT A NEW SPIRIT IN YOU; I WILL REMOVE FROM YOU YOUR HEART OF STONE AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH [SUP]27 [/SUP]AND I WILL put my Spirit in you AND MOVE YOU to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
I have only just seen this post to me
I believe the differences in the above portions of Ezekiel are plain. In the first God is telling, through Ezekiel what the people must do
IE
MAKE YOU a new heart and a new Spirit
TURN YOURSELVES Ffrom all your transgressions
But in the second portion God says:
I WILL GIVE YOU a new heart and a new Spirit
AND MOVE YOU(i WILL DO IT) to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
To me it is very clear and plain. It seems to me you believe both portions of scripture belong to the same covenant. I could not therefore hope to convince you otherwise. For if the plain text does not convince, further words on my part I am sure would be futile
I WILL sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I WILL cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART AND PUT A NEW SPIRIT IN YOU; I WILL REMOVE FROM YOU YOUR HEART OF STONE AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH [SUP]27 [/SUP]AND I WILL put my Spirit in you AND MOVE YOU to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
I have only just seen this post to me
I believe the differences in the above portions of Ezekiel are plain. In the first God is telling, through Ezekiel what the people must do
IE
MAKE YOU a new heart and a new Spirit
TURN YOURSELVES Ffrom all your transgressions
But in the second portion God says:
I WILL GIVE YOU a new heart and a new Spirit
AND MOVE YOU(i WILL DO IT) to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws
To me it is very clear and plain. It seems to me you believe both portions of scripture belong to the same covenant. I could not therefore hope to convince you otherwise. For if the plain text does not convince, further words on my part I am sure would be futile
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Thank you for taking the time to reply
I first must state that i did not grasp what you meant, and have come to see that the free will v total depravity was possibly not behind your original post.
Ezekiel 16
Ezekiel is a big read and the word Repent does come from the Messiah.
Sin no more also.
Keep the Commandments and Teach them.
I do consider that we may even have different ideas of the New Covenant.
I first must state that i did not grasp what you meant, and have come to see that the free will v total depravity was possibly not behind your original post.
Ezekiel 16
Ezekiel is a big read and the word Repent does come from the Messiah.
Sin no more also.
Keep the Commandments and Teach them.
I do consider that we may even have different ideas of the New Covenant.
Thank you for taking the time to reply
I first must state that i did not grasp what you meant, and have come to see that the free will v total depravity was possibly not behind your original post.
Ezekiel 16
Ezekiel is a big read and the word Repent does come from the Messiah.
Sin no more also.
Keep the Commandments and Teach them.
I do consider that we may even have different ideas of the New Covenant.
I first must state that i did not grasp what you meant, and have come to see that the free will v total depravity was possibly not behind your original post.
Ezekiel 16
Ezekiel is a big read and the word Repent does come from the Messiah.
Sin no more also.
Keep the Commandments and Teach them.
I do consider that we may even have different ideas of the New Covenant.
Thank you for taking the time to reply
I first must state that i did not grasp what you meant, and have come to see that the free will v total depravity was possibly not behind your original post.
Ezekiel 16
Ezekiel is a big read and the word Repent does come from the Messiah.
Sin no more also.
Keep the Commandments and Teach them.
I do consider that we may even have different ideas of the New Covenant.
I first must state that i did not grasp what you meant, and have come to see that the free will v total depravity was possibly not behind your original post.
Ezekiel 16
Ezekiel is a big read and the word Repent does come from the Messiah.
Sin no more also.
Keep the Commandments and Teach them.
I do consider that we may even have different ideas of the New Covenant.
Do you strive each and every day to obey all of Christ's literal comands in the Gospels?
If you do not(I will wait for your response on this) would you feel comfortable asking others/teaching them to do that which you did not do yourself?
Or do you believe certain of Christ's literal commands are to be striven to be kept but others are not important.
If you believe the latter, could you tell me which of Christ's literal commands should be followed and which are unimportant to follow
Thankyou, only I seek to understand exactly where you are coming from here.
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C
It is impossible for anyone to obey Christ's commands through human effort. However, when one "puts on the new man" which is the Spirit of Christ living on the inside of us, it now becomes possible because "it is not I who live but Christ who lives in me". All we are called to do as believers is to surrender all to God (die to our own will) and abide in Christ (walk in the Spirit). Christ himself takes care of the rest in the form of the fruit of the Spirit which brings forth everything necessary to live a life of Godliness.
An example of such would be Christs command to love the Lord your God with all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Scripture clearly states that love is the fulfillment of the law. Love is also the first of many fruit of the Spirit (ie. indwelling divine nature).
An authentic born again believer is without excuse.
An example of such would be Christs command to love the Lord your God with all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Scripture clearly states that love is the fulfillment of the law. Love is also the first of many fruit of the Spirit (ie. indwelling divine nature).
An authentic born again believer is without excuse.
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I am of the position that we're first regenerated and as a fruit of regeneration we believe. You say you think this is unscriptural, yet I, and others, have shown many times that it is not. This position is no different from the teachings of for example Luther and Calvin.
The problem with prevenient grace is that it assumes an ability in the sinner which the sinner do not have. It is serious an error because it does place justification at least partly in the sinner. It makes the salvation of the sinner conditioned IN/ON HIM and NOT in Christ alone.
Getting born again is not about making a choice to become born again, it is about experiencing a mighty re-creational resurrection miracle from God - completely outside of us. We have as little a say in our new birth as we had in our natural birth.
This makes no sense. If he was the one who "did something" that "caused his justification" then his justification was not in Christ alone. At the very least this is conditionalism.
Obviously you struggle with this issue. I have to have forbearance...hope you also bear with my sometimes rough replies.
God can give a gift to somebody (and never take that gift back, regardless of conditions) even if that person do not ask for that gift. Is this offensive to you?? Gifts are conditioned on the giver alone. OK?
The problem with prevenient grace is that it assumes an ability in the sinner which the sinner do not have. It is serious an error because it does place justification at least partly in the sinner. It makes the salvation of the sinner conditioned IN/ON HIM and NOT in Christ alone.
Getting born again is not about making a choice to become born again, it is about experiencing a mighty re-creational resurrection miracle from God - completely outside of us. We have as little a say in our new birth as we had in our natural birth.
This makes no sense. If he was the one who "did something" that "caused his justification" then his justification was not in Christ alone. At the very least this is conditionalism.
Obviously you struggle with this issue. I have to have forbearance...hope you also bear with my sometimes rough replies.
God can give a gift to somebody (and never take that gift back, regardless of conditions) even if that person do not ask for that gift. Is this offensive to you?? Gifts are conditioned on the giver alone. OK?
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