The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"
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Elin,
You don't provide a single scripture which actually states that Jesus served as your penal substitute satisfying the wrath of God so you can be forensically counted innocent. You quote a few verses and then you "imply" with "conjecture" that that is what they are teaching.
Jesus ransomed us from the corrupting influence of sin which we sold ourselves into through the choices we made. Being reconciled to God has nothing whatsoever to do with a forensic swap.
To honestly believe that being reconciled to God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is merely forensic whilst leaving one manifestly in a defiled state and still inwardly wicked is beyond foolishness.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Where is this escape in your gospel?
You don't provide a single scripture which actually states that Jesus served as your penal substitute satisfying the wrath of God so you can be forensically counted innocent. You quote a few verses and then you "imply" with "conjecture" that that is what they are teaching.
Jesus ransomed us from the corrupting influence of sin which we sold ourselves into through the choices we made. Being reconciled to God has nothing whatsoever to do with a forensic swap.
To honestly believe that being reconciled to God through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is merely forensic whilst leaving one manifestly in a defiled state and still inwardly wicked is beyond foolishness.
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Where is this escape in your gospel?
That's a fail.
I did better than providing you with Scripture--2Co 5:21; 1Pe 2:24.
I also provided actions and events prescribed by God in the sin offering of Lev 4 (4:4, 1:4), which give the unalterable meaning of those Scriptures, not just in words, but in their actual practices and rituals.
Pay attention. . .then try again.
Answer my questions referred to in the previous post above, and then we'll go from there.
I did better than providing you with Scripture--2Co 5:21; 1Pe 2:24.
I also provided actions and events prescribed by God in the sin offering of Lev 4 (4:4, 1:4), which give the unalterable meaning of those Scriptures, not just in words, but in their actual practices and rituals.
Pay attention. . .then try again.
Answer my questions referred to in the previous post above, and then we'll go from there.
Here are some refs from the Christus Victor perspective.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(Gen 3:15)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(Col 2:14-15)
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(Joh 12:31)
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Eph 4:8)
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Heb 2:14)
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Co 15:55-57)
But as I said I see merit in other of the views too. Interestingly this view was one of the earliest in the early church.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(Gen 3:15)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(Col 2:14-15)
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
(Joh 12:31)
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Eph 4:8)
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Heb 2:14)
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Co 15:55-57)
But as I said I see merit in other of the views too. Interestingly this view was one of the earliest in the early church.
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29).
"Go and learn what (Ro 5:12-21) means.." (Mt 9:13)
Nor do you understand the substitutionary penal atonement of Ro 3:25-26.
"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26) means." (Mt 13:9)
Then give a consistent and Biblical explanation to the questions presented here.
And we will go from there.
It's in the NT gospel in 2Pe 1:3-4.
Again, this is one of the many things Jesus accomplished in his substitutionary penal atonement for the sin of those who believe in him.
It's not either/or, it's and/all.
And again, you do not understand substitutionary penal atonement.
"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26; 2Co 5:21; Heb 9:28; 1Pe 2:24) means." (Mt 13:9)
Then give a consistent and Biblical explanation to the questions presented here,
and we'll go from there.
"Go and learn what (Ro 5:12-21) means.." (Mt 9:13)
Nor do you understand the substitutionary penal atonement of Ro 3:25-26.
"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26) means." (Mt 13:9)
Then give a consistent and Biblical explanation to the questions presented here.
And we will go from there.
It's in the NT gospel in 2Pe 1:3-4.
Again, this is one of the many things Jesus accomplished in his substitutionary penal atonement for the sin of those who believe in him.
It's not either/or, it's and/all.
And again, you do not understand substitutionary penal atonement.
"Go and learn what (Ro 3:25-26; 2Co 5:21; Heb 9:28; 1Pe 2:24) means." (Mt 13:9)
Then give a consistent and Biblical explanation to the questions presented here,
and we'll go from there.
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Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Righteousness Through Faith
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. [SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— [SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.[SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, [SUP]30 [/SUP]since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. [SUP]31[/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom3:20-31
Paul in the above plainly states the core of his Gospel:
The law can only make a person conscious of their sin(make them feel acutely their shortcomings according to it.)
The Christian has a righteousness apart from law(their own personal goodness)
The Christians righteousness is faith in Christ
A man is justified by faith in Christ apart from observing the law.
Paul knew what many of his readers would immediately think after reading the above.
'If I am saved by faith in Christ, and that is my righteousness before God, and if I am justified in God's sight by this faith without observing the law, I can do what I want, I can sin as much as I want, and therefore not obey the law'. Hence Paul's final statement in the chapter
Dol we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law!
But here's the problem
In order for Paul's Gospel to stand, and for the Christian to uphold the law, and for sin not to be their master, they have to know in their heart they have but one righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ, and they have to know they are justified in God's sight apart from observing the law. We know that sin is transgression of the law. So for Paul's Gospel to work a person has to know they are saved, inspite of their faliure to live a perfect life, in other words they are righteous in God's sight even though are not perfect in the flesh/they are sinners (for they have a righteousness apart from law)
It is at the point a person knows that, according to Paul's teaching that they will start to better uphold the law/sin will not be their master
The problem is the author of this thread does not allow for that spiritual truth.
For he says that UNLESS SIN CEASES you cannot be saved as you are in rebellion. Now he can dress it up anyway he tries to I guess, but the fact remains under his Gospel you cannot be justified by faith in Christ apart from the law. For sin is transgression of the law. And he does not allow for salvation to take place apart from the biblical definition of law keeping being observed. Therefore you have to be righteous/acceptable under the law
And on that point his Gospel crumbles, in effect you must have a righteousness according to law before God to be saved. He does not understand the biblical principal involved here.
Sin, the basic huiman nature to rebel against that which is Holy and good is stirred into life to express itself in rebellion against God's good and Holy laws
But the law has no power over you unless it brings punishment/condemnation. Under Paul's Gospel the law cannot bring condemnation for the Christian, under skinski's it can and does
Once the law can condemn you, you are under law, and according to Paul sin will not be your master because you are not under law
Now the author of this thread will say people use this as a licence to sin, he does not understand the outworknig of the new covenannt. God is not daft, he had it all figured out
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my law in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Paul's Gospel only works if a person knows they cannot be condemned for transgression of the law/sin, that is the core of his Gospdel as to why sin shall not be a persons master. Skinski's Gospel does not accept that truth
Hence, an American woman told me once, that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches. It is not at all hard, tragically to believe that to be true
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. [SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— [SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.[SUP]28 [/SUP]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, [SUP]30 [/SUP]since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. [SUP]31[/SUP]Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom3:20-31
Paul in the above plainly states the core of his Gospel:
The law can only make a person conscious of their sin(make them feel acutely their shortcomings according to it.)
The Christian has a righteousness apart from law(their own personal goodness)
The Christians righteousness is faith in Christ
A man is justified by faith in Christ apart from observing the law.
Paul knew what many of his readers would immediately think after reading the above.
'If I am saved by faith in Christ, and that is my righteousness before God, and if I am justified in God's sight by this faith without observing the law, I can do what I want, I can sin as much as I want, and therefore not obey the law'. Hence Paul's final statement in the chapter
Dol we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law!
But here's the problem
In order for Paul's Gospel to stand, and for the Christian to uphold the law, and for sin not to be their master, they have to know in their heart they have but one righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ, and they have to know they are justified in God's sight apart from observing the law. We know that sin is transgression of the law. So for Paul's Gospel to work a person has to know they are saved, inspite of their faliure to live a perfect life, in other words they are righteous in God's sight even though are not perfect in the flesh/they are sinners (for they have a righteousness apart from law)
It is at the point a person knows that, according to Paul's teaching that they will start to better uphold the law/sin will not be their master
The problem is the author of this thread does not allow for that spiritual truth.
For he says that UNLESS SIN CEASES you cannot be saved as you are in rebellion. Now he can dress it up anyway he tries to I guess, but the fact remains under his Gospel you cannot be justified by faith in Christ apart from the law. For sin is transgression of the law. And he does not allow for salvation to take place apart from the biblical definition of law keeping being observed. Therefore you have to be righteous/acceptable under the law
And on that point his Gospel crumbles, in effect you must have a righteousness according to law before God to be saved. He does not understand the biblical principal involved here.
Sin, the basic huiman nature to rebel against that which is Holy and good is stirred into life to express itself in rebellion against God's good and Holy laws
But the law has no power over you unless it brings punishment/condemnation. Under Paul's Gospel the law cannot bring condemnation for the Christian, under skinski's it can and does
Once the law can condemn you, you are under law, and according to Paul sin will not be your master because you are not under law
Now the author of this thread will say people use this as a licence to sin, he does not understand the outworknig of the new covenannt. God is not daft, he had it all figured out
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my law in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Paul's Gospel only works if a person knows they cannot be condemned for transgression of the law/sin, that is the core of his Gospdel as to why sin shall not be a persons master. Skinski's Gospel does not accept that truth
Hence, an American woman told me once, that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches. It is not at all hard, tragically to believe that to be true
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When all the fluff is removed from your rhetoric you are left with a salvation which is a cloak for ongoing defilement.
You write great swelling words yet preach against the cessation of sin.
This one single scripture undoes everything you say for it addresses the root of your fallacy.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Righteousness is in doing and yet you completely deny it. Righteousness to you is a provision, a cloak for unrighteousness.
What people like you do is isolate verses of scripture here and there and use them to support a monolithic system of lies which you are emotionally attached to.
Yet when one digs into the root of this entire system of error we see the an underlying premise that denies the possibility of genuine heart purity, a premise which denies actually being set free from the bondage of sin.
Your entire theological system is premised on the assertion that man is so filthy and corrupt and that he cannot be anything but filthy and corrupt and therefore the only road to salvation has to be a forensic abstract cloak whereby God PRETENDS that you are righteous while you remain defiled in your heart. That is the absolute bottom line of your doctrine.
It is for this reason that your theological system forces you to use scriptures like 1Joh 1:8, Rom 7:14, 1Ti 1:15 to support the contention of a perpetual state of depravity in this life.
You'll always obfuscate the issue and misdirect any discussion away from this point. The point being how your doctrine denies the possibility of the genuine heart purity found through abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
You write great swelling words yet preach against the cessation of sin.
This one single scripture undoes everything you say for it addresses the root of your fallacy.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Righteousness is in doing and yet you completely deny it. Righteousness to you is a provision, a cloak for unrighteousness.
What people like you do is isolate verses of scripture here and there and use them to support a monolithic system of lies which you are emotionally attached to.
Yet when one digs into the root of this entire system of error we see the an underlying premise that denies the possibility of genuine heart purity, a premise which denies actually being set free from the bondage of sin.
Your entire theological system is premised on the assertion that man is so filthy and corrupt and that he cannot be anything but filthy and corrupt and therefore the only road to salvation has to be a forensic abstract cloak whereby God PRETENDS that you are righteous while you remain defiled in your heart. That is the absolute bottom line of your doctrine.
It is for this reason that your theological system forces you to use scriptures like 1Joh 1:8, Rom 7:14, 1Ti 1:15 to support the contention of a perpetual state of depravity in this life.
You'll always obfuscate the issue and misdirect any discussion away from this point. The point being how your doctrine denies the possibility of the genuine heart purity found through abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
Mark,
You continually go back to your strawman of the law as you persist in your denial of the possibility of the genuine purity of heart which is fund in Jesus Christ.
Your mind concludes that "obedience to God" = "legalism"
You have no concept how the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit.
This verse must boggle your mind...
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Here Paul says that the law is not voided but rather established through faith. If God really credits an individual, whose heart is still rooted in iniquity, with the obedient track record of Jesus then how exactly does that "establish" the law?
It doesn't. It merely CLOAKS the standard of the law with a judicial decree. Yet if he who "does what is righteous is righteous," as the Bible teaches, and God credits those who "walk in the steps of faith" (Rom 4:12) in love (Gal 5:6) then clearly the law has not been voided but established.
Hence when you say, "Paul's Gospel only works if a person knows they cannot be condemned for transgression of the law/sin, that is the core of his Gospdel as to why sin shall not be a persons master. Skinski's Gospel does not accept that truth" and thus allude to the "penalty of transgression" being removed (due to Jesus being punished in your place) the actual walk after the Spirit has nothing to do with it.
You see Paul teaches that the reason "sin is someone's master" is because they "yield to it" (Rom 6:16). You believe that sin is not someone's master because Jesus took the punishment for you and thus you cannot be condemned anymore.
Yet the Bible teaches that there is no condemnation for those who in in Christ who "walk after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). For it is in "walking after the Spirit" that one is "no longer yielding to sin" and thus "sin is no longer their master."
Your false gospel does not have one being set free from the bondage of sin. Sin remains your master yet you are blind to that fact. You don't believe that it is in the "yielding" that one reveals whose slave they really are. By denying the "yielding" you hold to a system which teaches FREEDOM IN SLAVERY. It is pure nonsense.
It is this very core of reasoning why so many pastors tell me that a Christian can be in total bondage to pornography and yet be at the same have been set free by Christ.
Remember the phrase "Freedom is Slavery" from George Orwell's 1984? Well that is basically what modern Christian theology, for the most part, actually teaches. One really has to throw reason and logic out the window if they are to hold to this theology and at the same time really think it through.
You continually go back to your strawman of the law as you persist in your denial of the possibility of the genuine purity of heart which is fund in Jesus Christ.
Your mind concludes that "obedience to God" = "legalism"
You have no concept how the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit.
This verse must boggle your mind...
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Here Paul says that the law is not voided but rather established through faith. If God really credits an individual, whose heart is still rooted in iniquity, with the obedient track record of Jesus then how exactly does that "establish" the law?
It doesn't. It merely CLOAKS the standard of the law with a judicial decree. Yet if he who "does what is righteous is righteous," as the Bible teaches, and God credits those who "walk in the steps of faith" (Rom 4:12) in love (Gal 5:6) then clearly the law has not been voided but established.
Hence when you say, "Paul's Gospel only works if a person knows they cannot be condemned for transgression of the law/sin, that is the core of his Gospdel as to why sin shall not be a persons master. Skinski's Gospel does not accept that truth" and thus allude to the "penalty of transgression" being removed (due to Jesus being punished in your place) the actual walk after the Spirit has nothing to do with it.
You see Paul teaches that the reason "sin is someone's master" is because they "yield to it" (Rom 6:16). You believe that sin is not someone's master because Jesus took the punishment for you and thus you cannot be condemned anymore.
Yet the Bible teaches that there is no condemnation for those who in in Christ who "walk after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). For it is in "walking after the Spirit" that one is "no longer yielding to sin" and thus "sin is no longer their master."
Your false gospel does not have one being set free from the bondage of sin. Sin remains your master yet you are blind to that fact. You don't believe that it is in the "yielding" that one reveals whose slave they really are. By denying the "yielding" you hold to a system which teaches FREEDOM IN SLAVERY. It is pure nonsense.
It is this very core of reasoning why so many pastors tell me that a Christian can be in total bondage to pornography and yet be at the same have been set free by Christ.
Remember the phrase "Freedom is Slavery" from George Orwell's 1984? Well that is basically what modern Christian theology, for the most part, actually teaches. One really has to throw reason and logic out the window if they are to hold to this theology and at the same time really think it through.
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You continually go back to your strawman of the law as you persist in yourdenial of the possibility of the genuine purity of heart which is fund in JesusChrist.
Fraid not Skinski. What I state is absolute correct truth. Your Gospel doesnot allow a person to become saved solely by a righteousness of faith in Christ.You can hardly deny it. For you continually state no one can be saved until sinhas ceased. And sin is transgrssion of the law. 1John3:4 Try and obfuscate,bend it if you wish but that is the truth.
You mind concludes that "obedience to God" = "legalism"
True obediance is not legalism
You have no concept how the law is fulfilled in those who walk after theSpirit.
Skinski
You have no true understanding of the Biblical principal Paul taught
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.
If a person is not under law, they cannot be condemned if they are found tobe a sinner. On this point Paul’s Gospel hangs. A person comes to Christ, theyaccept his as lord and Saviour of their life. They know there is sin in theirlife that needs to be dealt with, but they stand in their one and onlyrighteousness according to Paul ‘Faith in Christ’ Only once they do that, willsins power in their life weaken. It is so plainly written, but I fear you willnever accept it. But I know how dark your world can be, and how hard it is befreed from it, for I was there remember.
This verse must boggle your mind...
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, weestablish the law.
Boggle me?
Once again Skinski
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that weourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17
We establish the law, but you are reading the literal letter withoutunderstanding the practical reality of how grace is worked out in theindividuals life. A person does not perform perfect as soon as they come toChrist. You didn’t neither did I or anyone else. Sadly, you are left with aGospel in your head that you in your life have never practically lived out, butyou preach it, and demand others live it out. That is the reality, for you donot 24/7 365 days of the year perfectly follow after the Spirit, neither doesanyone else
Yes, pure biblical truth, if you perfectly follow after the Spirit at alltimes you will not sin, I ask you once again, do you claim to perfectly followafter the spirit at all times?
If you do not, you demand of others what you cannot do yourself. I repeat Iwas brought up with all of this, don’t try and pull the wool over my eyes.
Here Paul says that the law is not voided but rather established through faith.If God really credits an individual whose heart is still rooted in iniquitywith the obedient track record of Jesus then how exactly does that"establish" the law?
And this is rthe coire of where you go wrong, and do not understand Paul’smessage. A person comes to Christ and accept him as Lord and Saviour of theirlife. They have sin in their life, but they either have to stand on faith inChrist unto salvation or their own personal goodness. If they stand on theirown personal goodness,the following will happen. Satan will just pour lustfulthoughts into the convert until they give up with God. He knows if they aresincere they will give up, for to them if they have sin in their life, they can’tbe a Christian. But for the convert who knows they have issues that need dealingwith but looks to Christ and stands solely by faith in him, lets take lustagain. Satan isn’t going to get far is he? He cannot make that convert give up if they stand byfaith in Christ, he is wasting his time. He gains nothing by pouring impurethoughts into their mind. So he finds someone else to devour. Why can you notunderstand, I am speaking of victory according to Paul’s Gospel, not a licenceto sin, but I do not speak of sinlessness in the flesh. If you reallyunderstood what the law demanded, instead of glibly looking over it as it were,you would not make the statements you do concerning living an almost sinlesslife, that is the truth.
,
It doesn't. It merely CLOAKS the standard of the law with a judicial decree.Yet if who "does what is righteous is righteous," as the Bibleteaches, and God credits those who "walk in the steps of faith" (Rom4:12) in love (Gal 5:6) then clearly the law has not been voided but established.
The law can only be established if it cannot condemn you. This is theprincipal you will not accept. Take a child. They get to two. A loving parentgives them rules for their own good. As soon as they are given those rules,huge excitement is stirred in them to break the rules, it is basic human nature.There’s a thrill in seeing if you can get away with breaking the rules. If thatchild wasn’t given the rules, or their was no punishemnt for breaking them theywould sometimes be drawn to that which they should not do but the allure wouldnot be so great
Now read Rom7:7-11 and think HARD on what happened to Paul when thecommandment came to him
Hence when you say, "Paul's Gospel only works if a person knows theycannot be condemned for transgression of the law/sin, that is the core of hisGospdel as to why sin shall not be a persons master. Skinski's Gospel does notaccept that truth" and thus allude to the "penalty oftransgression" being removed (due to Jesus being punished in your place)the actual walk after the Spirit has nothing to do with it.
You can only follow after the Spirit if you understand the core, basic principalof the Gospel of Grace. What will happen is this. You become a Christian, youwant to do what is right (follow after the Spirit) but your mindset says(underyour stated beliefs) if I sin, I am condemned. Once you have taken that FATALview, sin must according to Paul have huge power over you. For the power of sinis the law 1Cor15:56 You can struggle to follow after the Spirit but it isuseless, you have given sin huge power in your life. You have to die to sinspower in order for sin to be weakened in your life, and the power of sin is thelaw. Tell me Skinski? What happens if you remove something’s power? It mustweaken mustn’t it? Back to Rom3:31&rom6:14
You see Paul teaches that the reason "sin is someone's master" isbecause they "yield to it" (Rom 6:16). You believe that sin is notsomeone's master because Jesus took the punishment for you and thus you cannotbe condemned anymore.
Read the following verse Skinski. They were set frre by following the formof teaching they were entrusted with. The Gosdpel of grace(Rom3:20-31)
Yet the Bible teaches that there is no condemnation for those who in in Christwho "walk after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). For it is in "walkingafter the Spirit" that one is "no longer yielding to sin" andthus "sin is no longer their master."
Yep, we must follow after the Spirit, but when we let His truth into ourlife, we firstly know there can be no condemnation according to the law. If wedo not accept that we don’t accept the Spirits teaching. But the Spirit doesnot rationalise as we naturally do. We believe, we get what we earn, we getwhat we deserve, if we got that, we all go to hell. You have to understand and acceptPaul’s core Gospel principal, then you are following after the Spirit truly
You false gospel does not have one being set free from the bondage of sin. Sinremains your master yet you are blind to that fact. You don't believe that itis in the "yielding" that one reveals whose slave they really are. Bydenying the "yielding" you hold to a system which teaches FREEDOM INSLAVERY. It is pure nonsense.
Not true Skinski. I told you yesterday of freedom I had by following Paul’sGospel. Where I differ with you is, I have never in the flesh met anyone whoclaims sinless perfection(call it a strawman if you wish) but this is theinternet so you make allowances. Neither you or I are perfect, but there is avast difference between sin being a persons’ master, and sinless perfection
It is this very core of reasoning why so many pastors tell me that a Christiancan be in total bondage to pornography and yet be at the same have been setfree by Christ.
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be offensive, but only by knowing you cannot becondemned for sin, can you see victory over it. I have told you why so manyChristians are addicted to porn, but you won’t believe me
Remember the phrase "Freedom is Slavery" from George Orwell's 1984?Well that is basically what modern Christian theology, for the most part,actually teaches. One really has to throw reason and logic out the window ifthey are to hold to this theology and at the same time really think it through
Paul tells us how to have victory in our lives over sin, but that does meanperfection. And for that victory to be achieved, according to Paul you have toknow you are not under law but under grace, that means you cannot be condemnedfor your imperfections/sin. Only when you are convicted of that fact, does sinspower start to weaken in your life, and you can follow more after the Spirit. Iam not excusing sin Skinski, just telling you Paul’s core Gospel to see muchvictory over sin in our lives
Fraid not Skinski. What I state is absolute correct truth. Your Gospel doesnot allow a person to become saved solely by a righteousness of faith in Christ.You can hardly deny it. For you continually state no one can be saved until sinhas ceased. And sin is transgrssion of the law. 1John3:4 Try and obfuscate,bend it if you wish but that is the truth.
You mind concludes that "obedience to God" = "legalism"
True obediance is not legalism
You have no concept how the law is fulfilled in those who walk after theSpirit.
Skinski
You have no true understanding of the Biblical principal Paul taught
For sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.
If a person is not under law, they cannot be condemned if they are found tobe a sinner. On this point Paul’s Gospel hangs. A person comes to Christ, theyaccept his as lord and Saviour of their life. They know there is sin in theirlife that needs to be dealt with, but they stand in their one and onlyrighteousness according to Paul ‘Faith in Christ’ Only once they do that, willsins power in their life weaken. It is so plainly written, but I fear you willnever accept it. But I know how dark your world can be, and how hard it is befreed from it, for I was there remember.
This verse must boggle your mind...
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, weestablish the law.
Boggle me?
Once again Skinski
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that weourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!If I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
Gal2:16&17
We establish the law, but you are reading the literal letter withoutunderstanding the practical reality of how grace is worked out in theindividuals life. A person does not perform perfect as soon as they come toChrist. You didn’t neither did I or anyone else. Sadly, you are left with aGospel in your head that you in your life have never practically lived out, butyou preach it, and demand others live it out. That is the reality, for you donot 24/7 365 days of the year perfectly follow after the Spirit, neither doesanyone else
Yes, pure biblical truth, if you perfectly follow after the Spirit at alltimes you will not sin, I ask you once again, do you claim to perfectly followafter the spirit at all times?
If you do not, you demand of others what you cannot do yourself. I repeat Iwas brought up with all of this, don’t try and pull the wool over my eyes.
Here Paul says that the law is not voided but rather established through faith.If God really credits an individual whose heart is still rooted in iniquitywith the obedient track record of Jesus then how exactly does that"establish" the law?
And this is rthe coire of where you go wrong, and do not understand Paul’smessage. A person comes to Christ and accept him as Lord and Saviour of theirlife. They have sin in their life, but they either have to stand on faith inChrist unto salvation or their own personal goodness. If they stand on theirown personal goodness,the following will happen. Satan will just pour lustfulthoughts into the convert until they give up with God. He knows if they aresincere they will give up, for to them if they have sin in their life, they can’tbe a Christian. But for the convert who knows they have issues that need dealingwith but looks to Christ and stands solely by faith in him, lets take lustagain. Satan isn’t going to get far is he? He cannot make that convert give up if they stand byfaith in Christ, he is wasting his time. He gains nothing by pouring impurethoughts into their mind. So he finds someone else to devour. Why can you notunderstand, I am speaking of victory according to Paul’s Gospel, not a licenceto sin, but I do not speak of sinlessness in the flesh. If you reallyunderstood what the law demanded, instead of glibly looking over it as it were,you would not make the statements you do concerning living an almost sinlesslife, that is the truth.
,
It doesn't. It merely CLOAKS the standard of the law with a judicial decree.Yet if who "does what is righteous is righteous," as the Bibleteaches, and God credits those who "walk in the steps of faith" (Rom4:12) in love (Gal 5:6) then clearly the law has not been voided but established.
The law can only be established if it cannot condemn you. This is theprincipal you will not accept. Take a child. They get to two. A loving parentgives them rules for their own good. As soon as they are given those rules,huge excitement is stirred in them to break the rules, it is basic human nature.There’s a thrill in seeing if you can get away with breaking the rules. If thatchild wasn’t given the rules, or their was no punishemnt for breaking them theywould sometimes be drawn to that which they should not do but the allure wouldnot be so great
Now read Rom7:7-11 and think HARD on what happened to Paul when thecommandment came to him
Hence when you say, "Paul's Gospel only works if a person knows theycannot be condemned for transgression of the law/sin, that is the core of hisGospdel as to why sin shall not be a persons master. Skinski's Gospel does notaccept that truth" and thus allude to the "penalty oftransgression" being removed (due to Jesus being punished in your place)the actual walk after the Spirit has nothing to do with it.
You can only follow after the Spirit if you understand the core, basic principalof the Gospel of Grace. What will happen is this. You become a Christian, youwant to do what is right (follow after the Spirit) but your mindset says(underyour stated beliefs) if I sin, I am condemned. Once you have taken that FATALview, sin must according to Paul have huge power over you. For the power of sinis the law 1Cor15:56 You can struggle to follow after the Spirit but it isuseless, you have given sin huge power in your life. You have to die to sinspower in order for sin to be weakened in your life, and the power of sin is thelaw. Tell me Skinski? What happens if you remove something’s power? It mustweaken mustn’t it? Back to Rom3:31&rom6:14
You see Paul teaches that the reason "sin is someone's master" isbecause they "yield to it" (Rom 6:16). You believe that sin is notsomeone's master because Jesus took the punishment for you and thus you cannotbe condemned anymore.
Read the following verse Skinski. They were set frre by following the formof teaching they were entrusted with. The Gosdpel of grace(Rom3:20-31)
Yet the Bible teaches that there is no condemnation for those who in in Christwho "walk after the Spirit" (Rom 8:1). For it is in "walkingafter the Spirit" that one is "no longer yielding to sin" andthus "sin is no longer their master."
Yep, we must follow after the Spirit, but when we let His truth into ourlife, we firstly know there can be no condemnation according to the law. If wedo not accept that we don’t accept the Spirits teaching. But the Spirit doesnot rationalise as we naturally do. We believe, we get what we earn, we getwhat we deserve, if we got that, we all go to hell. You have to understand and acceptPaul’s core Gospel principal, then you are following after the Spirit truly
You false gospel does not have one being set free from the bondage of sin. Sinremains your master yet you are blind to that fact. You don't believe that itis in the "yielding" that one reveals whose slave they really are. Bydenying the "yielding" you hold to a system which teaches FREEDOM INSLAVERY. It is pure nonsense.
Not true Skinski. I told you yesterday of freedom I had by following Paul’sGospel. Where I differ with you is, I have never in the flesh met anyone whoclaims sinless perfection(call it a strawman if you wish) but this is theinternet so you make allowances. Neither you or I are perfect, but there is avast difference between sin being a persons’ master, and sinless perfection
It is this very core of reasoning why so many pastors tell me that a Christiancan be in total bondage to pornography and yet be at the same have been setfree by Christ.
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be offensive, but only by knowing you cannot becondemned for sin, can you see victory over it. I have told you why so manyChristians are addicted to porn, but you won’t believe me
Remember the phrase "Freedom is Slavery" from George Orwell's 1984?Well that is basically what modern Christian theology, for the most part,actually teaches. One really has to throw reason and logic out the window ifthey are to hold to this theology and at the same time really think it through
Paul tells us how to have victory in our lives over sin, but that does meanperfection. And for that victory to be achieved, according to Paul you have toknow you are not under law but under grace, that means you cannot be condemnedfor your imperfections/sin. Only when you are convicted of that fact, does sinspower start to weaken in your life, and you can follow more after the Spirit. Iam not excusing sin Skinski, just telling you Paul’s core Gospel to see muchvictory over sin in our lives
No Zone.
Righteousness is revealed by the MANIFEST CONDUCT of those who abide in Christ.
Self-righteousness is an effort to be righteousness APART FROM GOD. Yielding to God and walking in the Spirit is not self-righteousness.
You twist these things around and that is why you often resort to short statements which completely avoid the fundamental issues I bring forth. You don't have any answer for what I say thus all you can do is misdirect and name call.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. The sin has stopped.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Righteousness is in regards to what you actually do.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Jesus manifested to destroy the works of the devil and that includes to destroy the works of the devil in our lives.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Those born of God do not produce the fruit of sin in their lives. They do not yield to sin for they have the seed of Christ and are led by the Spirit.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Therefore the MANIFEST CONDUCT reveals whose child one belongs to. Those who produce sin are the children of the devil, those who produce the fruit of righteousness are the children of God.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Your a Lutheran Zone, not a follower of Christ.
If you were a follower of Christ then you would not cast aspersions on the doctrine of Christ which is the doctrine according to godliness. The doctrine that we obey from the heart by which we are set free from sin and thus become servants of righteousness.
Righteousness is revealed by the MANIFEST CONDUCT of those who abide in Christ.
Self-righteousness is an effort to be righteousness APART FROM GOD. Yielding to God and walking in the Spirit is not self-righteousness.
You twist these things around and that is why you often resort to short statements which completely avoid the fundamental issues I bring forth. You don't have any answer for what I say thus all you can do is misdirect and name call.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. The sin has stopped.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Righteousness is in regards to what you actually do.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Jesus manifested to destroy the works of the devil and that includes to destroy the works of the devil in our lives.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Those born of God do not produce the fruit of sin in their lives. They do not yield to sin for they have the seed of Christ and are led by the Spirit.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. Therefore the MANIFEST CONDUCT reveals whose child one belongs to. Those who produce sin are the children of the devil, those who produce the fruit of righteousness are the children of God.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Your a Lutheran Zone, not a follower of Christ.
If you were a follower of Christ then you would not cast aspersions on the doctrine of Christ which is the doctrine according to godliness. The doctrine that we obey from the heart by which we are set free from sin and thus become servants of righteousness.
standingthegap
^
SKINSKI's leader.
yakking about your own manifest godliness without proof is just you yakking.
lots of talking about your pure heart and sinlessness with no way for us to judge by your real life.
duh.
so far your evidence of real life fruit shows you hating the church and under-shepherds.
ugly fruit....clearly manifest.
Mark and others have asked you repeatedly to say upfront what being a servant of righteousness involves.
you not digging porn?
or you actually doing right by people?
^
SKINSKI's leader.
yakking about your own manifest godliness without proof is just you yakking.
lots of talking about your pure heart and sinlessness with no way for us to judge by your real life.
duh.
so far your evidence of real life fruit shows you hating the church and under-shepherds.
ugly fruit....clearly manifest.
Mark and others have asked you repeatedly to say upfront what being a servant of righteousness involves.
you not digging porn?
or you actually doing right by people?
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He doesn't give Christ and the spirit much recognition for his walk does he? Just drops an odd sentance in here and there. The emphasis is on what HE does
HE has crucified his flesh
HE has made his heart pure
HE doesn't sin(or hardly ever does)
Yet Paul said
It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil 3:9
Apparantly not
HE has crucified his flesh
HE has made his heart pure
HE doesn't sin(or hardly ever does)
Yet Paul said
It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil 3:9
Apparantly not