Creation

[MusicalMe]

I hope this doesn't get too heated - all I'm going for here is discussion, so try not to get too nasty

KJV:
Gensis 1:14 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years"

NIV:
Gensis 1:14 "And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years"

NASB:
Genesis 1:14 "Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years"

This verse takes place on the fourth "day." Here's the debate topic: If the things which determine days weren't created until the fourth "day" - how do we know the amount of time that was passing for the first three "days"?

So with that in mind, those of you who are Creationists, do you believe in a literal 6 day creation? Do you think this passage might suggest otherwise?


I'll get into my own thoughts on the subject later. I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss.

 

[Slepsog4]

First, He numbers all the days the same, 1,2,3,4, etc.

Second, He describes all the days the same way: Evening & Morning

Third, the week is described as 7 days everywhere else in the Scriptures.

 

[Thaddaeus]

no they couldn't have meant a different time passing

Ge 1:5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Ge 1:8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Ge 1:13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
it still says that the evening and the morning was a day in the first three days the day and the darkness was already divded

Ge 1:4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
God couldn't have use His time frame as a day is a thousand years and a thousand years as a day for creation. or any time frame as a day longer than a day, for Adam was created on the six day which means he lived through the sabbath . so if a tousand years was one day and a day as thousand years then adam would had been aleast a thousand years old after the sabbath, But the word of God says

Ge 5:5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Gen. 2:17

"But the tree of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam did not die on the same 24 hr day that he ate of the forbidden fruit, but if we take God to mean as He does sometimes a Day being a thousand years to Him, Adam did die before the end of his "day" - he died before he was a thousand years old, so the prophecy of God being true, meant that Adam did indeed die "in that day" that he ate of the fruit.

God can and often does mean 1000 years for what we may count to mean one human day, or He may just mean one 24hr day.

I see both good arguments for both a literal 6 human day creation, which God is capable of, and a 6 thousand year creation, perhaps longer, certainly alot to consider; it's a difficult question.

 

[sweetlybroken1]

Well I take the young earth creationist position here and I believe the days mentioned in Genesis are literal 24 hour periods for a few reasons.

1. In singular noun form the Hebrew word yom (day) always refers to a 24 hour period of time.

2. The usage of "morning" and "evening" when describing creation days provides further evidence that the reader is to see these periods of time as normal days. I mean how often do you hear of ages of time described as having both a day and night period? You never do. Plus if you look elsewhere in scripture you see that morning and evening clearly speak of literal days.

3. God commanded Israel to carry on the pattern He set in Genesis 1 by working six days and resting on a seventh.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the seas and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy" (Exodus 20:8-11)

If you're going to hold to a day age theory you have to suppose that the original audience of this command had recoginzed 2 different meanings for the word "day" in this passage. They'd have to differentiate between God's day (1000 years) and their day (24 hour periods of time). But the author uses the same word yom repeatedly. Or you'd have to have a thousand year period of rest, and how ridiculous would that be?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Well I take the young earth creationist position here and I believe the days mentioned in Genesis are literal 24 hour periods for a few reasons.

1. In singular noun form the Hebrew word yom (day) always refers to a 24 hour period of time.

2. The usage of "morning" and "evening" when describing creation days provides further evidence that the reader is to see these periods of time as normal days. I mean how often do you hear of ages of time described as having both a day and night period? You never do. Plus if you look elsewhere in scripture you see that morning and evening clearly speak of literal days.

3. God commanded Israel to carry on the pattern He set in Genesis 1 by working six days and resting on a seventh.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the seas and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy" (Exodus 20:8-11)

If you're going to hold to a day age theory you have to suppose that the original audience of this command had recoginzed 2 different meanings for the word "day" in this passage. They'd have to differentiate between God's day (1000 years) and their day (24 hour periods of time). But the author uses the same word yom repeatedly. Or you'd have to have a thousand year period of rest, and how ridiculous would that be?

Greetings

Ahh yes but you can have an infinite day of rest, you see because Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath it is not now a literal 24hr day, does the Sabbath day still exist? Yes it does, Jesus does not do away with the law but he restores it to it's true meaning; a never ending rest day! So where you say- 'the original audiance' well God through Moses was bringing in a law that the audiance did not understand, they got it entirely wrong, I mean Jesus totally destroyed the interpretation of a sabbath day being a literal 24hrs human day, God intended His rest day to be neverending, Jesus being our Sabbath everyday forever as Lord over the Sabbath gives the "day" it's true eternal meaning.

 

[sweetlybroken1]

So you're saying that before the Messiah came and was crucified, the Jewish people were wrong in their interpretation of that law for thousands of years and the sabbath did not truly exist until the fulfillment of Christ in the New testament?

Also, I still believe that the Sabbath day is still existent today. But even if it wasnt, you still have to deal with the language issues presented in scripture.

 

[sweetlybroken1]

Gen. 2:17

"But the tree of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam did not die on the same 24 hr day that he ate of the forbidden fruit

Sure he did! He died in one way or another. Adam died spiritually. Also, the physical death process began. If you're going to say that Adam did not die on that same day, then you make God out to be a liar.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Even though there was no light for the first 3 days, the earth was still orbiting around the location of the sun in 24 hour periods i.e. days.

The purpose of the sun was to separate the day from night (light from dark).

Gen 1:14 Then God commanded, "Let lights appear in the sky to separate day from night and to show the time when days, years, and religious festivals begin;

Further issues are, how can plants grow with just water before they had sunlight?

 

[Thaddaeus]

Gen. 2:17

"But the tree of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam did not die on the same 24 hr day that he ate of the forbidden fruit, but if we take God to mean as He does sometimes a Day being a thousand years to Him, Adam did die before the end of his "day" - he died before he was a thousand years old, so the prophecy of God being true, meant that Adam did indeed die "in that day" that he ate of the fruit.

God can and often does mean 1000 years for what we may count to mean one human day, or He may just mean one 24hr day.

I see both good arguments for both a literal 6 human day creation, which God is capable of, and a 6 thousand year creation, perhaps longer, certainly alot to consider; it's a difficult question.

it is true that God is not bound by time and a thousand years is, as one day as a thousand years is as one day, and I agree with the fact that this is within the day that God said that adam would die , seeing that adam only live 930 yrs. but in creation there was an evening and a morning, which is within a 24 hour day frame which God gave man. and in Alaska we can learn that even though its like dark for six month they still have a 24 Hour clock that they go by. as God gave man.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Even though there was no light for the first 3 days, the earth was still orbiting around the location of the sun in 24 hour periods i.e. days.

The purpose of the sun was to separate the day from night (light from dark).

Gen 1:14 Then God commanded, "Let lights appear in the sky to separate day from night and to show the time when days, years, and religious festivals begin;

Further issues are, how can plants grow with just water before they had sunlight?

Further issues are, how can plants grow with just water before they had sunlight.?

No issue ! Mr 14:36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
and there was light before the sun and moon was created in verse 16,

Ge 1:3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.Ge 1:4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.Ge 1:5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Sure he did! He died in one way or another. Adam died spiritually. Also, the physical death process began. If you're going to say that Adam did not die on that same day, then you make God out to be a liar.

Genesis 5:4 "And all the days of Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."

No I don't think I have contradicted the Bible with what I said;

II Peter 3:8-9 "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day."

In fact it begins to look like that I can only reconcile these verses if I consider like Peter that God is numbering His "Day" as a thousand years, rather than us humans with our little human 24hr day.

Bible does not say that Adam died twice, it says "and he died", so Adam died only once, so God must have meant a thousand years for His big God Day, Adam then indeed did die "in that day".

There is Aporypha that supports this theory as well, there is certainly no doubt that God can call a "day" and it be a thousand years, but does this apply to Genesis 1? I think it is very possible.

But wait, something else to consider "and God divided the light from darkness"

Could it be that if this "day" is being "God divided" we must be careful not to think of a sun-divided day, there being darkness then God brings forth light and divides it from the darkness, and this is the first day - the evening would have to be the unknown period of time when darkness was on the face of the deep and the Spirit of God was brooding (moving/floating?) on the face of the waters! If we cannot define how long this is we cannot call it a human 24hr day as we know days, then using exegesis -

- Man is a little worker doing his small work on six small days, but God is a great worker doing His large work on six long and great days. This is what Peter might be saying; whan God is at work we cannot assume He is working at our level, He is counting His days very differently to us.

 

[sweetlybroken1]

Cup-of-ruin you said that Adam did not die within that 24 hour period. I think you are disregarding the concept of spiritual death.

 

[MahogonySnail]

II Peter 3:8-9 "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day."

That's a figure of speech. Not a literal fact that 1 day is 1000 years. The Hebrew word for day as used for adam's death , is literally a 24 hour period. But it could also mean a longer period of time. It could mean God say from that very day, Adam would begin to die. Which took a couple hundred of years. I don't believe it only refers to spiritual death. But, as soon as Adam's eyes were opened, he "died" spiritually. i.e. his relationship with God was broken. Of course, his spirit could not actually and literally die. If it did, then Adam would have died himself (the body can't live without the spirit/breath), neither can the Spirit of God die.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I like Wesley's commentary on the death of Adam, it covers all bases:

Gen 2:16-17 Thou shall die - That is, thou shalt lose all the happiness thou hast either in possession or prospect; and thou shalt become liable to death, and all the miseries that preface and attend it. This was threatened as the immediate consequence of sin. In the day thou eatest, thou shalt die - Not only thou shalt become mortal, but spiritual death and the forerunners of temporal death shall immediately seize thee.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup-of-ruin you said that Adam did not die within that 24 hour period. I think you are disregarding the concept of spiritual death.

The Bible says that Adam died once and he was 930 years of age.

Hebrews 9:27 "And it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the Judgement."

Nowhere is there in the Bible mention of two deaths.

 

[Slepsog4]

Cup of Ruin,

Have you not read...

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Re 2:11 - [/FONT]He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Re 20:6 - [/FONT]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Re 20:14 - [/FONT]Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Re 21:8 - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."[/FONT]

Seems I count 4 uses.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup of Ruin,

Have you not read...

Seems I count 4 uses.

Book of revelations ---- 'the second Death'

Death and Hades are personified in Revelation, as in the one who sits on the 'pale horse' and the one who followed him is called Hades; "and power given unto them" The 'second' death is mentioned in Revelation only because of the Metonymy (of effect) .

There are not two deaths, humans don't die twice, as it says we are appointed to die once then the judgement. When Death which is personofied in Revelation is thrown into the lake of fire - 'this is the second death'....see this is whats called Metonymy of effect - death and the second death are related to each other only in Revelation. Jesus talks in parables, it is always very difficult to understand when Jesus is talking as in the book of Revelation.

There is only one death for humans, the one named death who sits on the 'pale horse' who is destined for the 'second death', for Jesus having overcome Death personifies him as a figure who himself shall be put to death - that would be the second death.

 

[pickles]

I know this may seem simple minded but I trust that God Our Father holds this understanding for me. I see so much in his word that is a mystery, whats one more. As far as I am concerned it is not for me to hold the mind of God but that God holds my mind and all I need will be as I need it. It is so restfull to trust in God as my Father. He knows me better than I know myself, so all that is needed is given. It is through his word that we begin to see. Godbless, pickles

 

[sweetlybroken1]

Nowhere is there in the Bible mention of two deaths.

Check out these scriptures:

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and rasied us up with Him, and saved us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:1-6)

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Colossians 2:13,14)

Spiritually mankind is dead. If we werent dead, John 3:5-7 would not make sense:

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'' (John 3:5-7)

Why would we need to be born again spiritually if we werent dead already? The concept of spiritual death is evident throughout scripture. So yes, Adam did die within that 24 hour period.