The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"

[psychomom]

Be not sad for me i'm content and will love you no less for your beliefs toward me.

Your words or mine are not more powerful than the truth and if there is one thing i do know and nothing else from this life, is the power of Heavenly Father and the Messiah have by my own witness on a persons life.

For nothing is ever about you or i and if at the end Heavenly Father is Glorified then let all things be said.

Just for the record...
what I said was not an accusation, but an observation.

Your continuing observance (and in part only) to a Law that you have died to
makes me wonder if you do understand what Christ accomplished for us.

Your posts, though oblique, tend to stay on the 'we must obey to remain'
side of things. 'Specially your favorites from The Revelation.
This also makes me wonder if you know what Christ accomplished for us.

If I had to guess I would say you do not believe in eternal security.
I would guess that you think God's power saved you,
but your own power (obedience to the Law) keeps you.
Which is not only sad, but unscriptural.

And without a whit of doubt, I love you, too.

 

[psychomom]

Does a serial murderer have to cease from murdering people BEFORE forgiveness is granted?

*sigh*
these extremes.

how about this one:
Does a man have to completely cease even looking at a woman thinking, 'Wow, she's gorgeous' BEFORE forgiveness is granted?

Does a person have to stop becoming angry even for a second at other drivers on the road BEFORE forgiveness is granted?

Do parents have to cease all impatience in their minds toward their recalcitrant children BEFORE forgiveness is granted?

Does a person have to love God perfectly every single millisecond of every single day BEFORE forgiveness is granted?

 

[mark54]

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Does a serial murderer have to cease from murdering people BEFORE forgiveness is granted?


Its one of Skinskis strawmen that he so often accuses others of using

 

[SarahM777]

In Jesus own words

Matthew 5

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[SUP][a][/SUP] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ [SUP]22[/SUP]But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP][c][/SUP] will be subject to judgment.Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[SUP][d][/SUP] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, [SUP]24 [/SUP]leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
[h=3]Adultery[/h][SUP]27 [/SUP]“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]28 [/SUP]But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [SUP]29 [/SUP]If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Abiding]

Psychomom:how about this one:
Does a man have to completely cease even looking at a woman thinking, 'Wow, she's gorgeous' BEFORE forgiveness is granted?

Only if hes operating heavy machinery

 

[mark54]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
!

Unfortunately you do not understand the context of the above quote

If this meant that upon faith in Christ all sin immediately vanished, Paul; would have had to tell the Corinthian church(according to your doctrine) they were unsaved
But he still referred to them as 'Brothers'

Also Gal2:17&18 also shows plainly(as I have quoted many times) shows that your belief is not scriptural and you do not understands the practical outworking of Grace in the converts life.
You are right, love fulfills the law, so when we do not perfectly love, we do not uphold the law

Therefore we are sinners saved by grace.

For you have never confirmed to me you at all times perfectly uphold the love that Christ demands in the beatitiudes alone.
You need to see beyond the 'literal letter' alone, and have an understanding of the outworking of Grace in a converts life

 

[psychomom]

If this meant that upon faith in Christ all sin immediately vanished, Paul; would have had to tell the Corinthian church(according to your doctrine) they were unsaved
But he still referred to them as 'Brothers'

And not that only; God (through Paul) also said this:

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours: (1 Cor. 1:2)

 

[Kefa52]

Here is what we should do. We all sin it's human nature. God reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ.

So lets just forget about the sacrafice on the cross. Lets all get those whip thingies and walk around all day beating our backs over alternating shoulders. Lets walk around all day beating ourselves up mentally.

Forget growing in grace and faith and and learning to please a Holy God.

 

[mark54]

I would guess that you think God's power saved you,
but your own power (obedience to the Law) keeps you.
Which is not only sad, but unscriptural.

I would hazzard a guess, that the vast majority of Christians believe in effect, in saved by Grace(through faith)
Kept by obdiance to the law through self effort.

 

[loveme1]

I would hazzard a guess, that the vast majority of Christians believe in effect, in saved by Grace(through faith)
Kept by obdiance to the law through self effort.

Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit?

 

[loveme1]

Just for the record...
what I said was not an accusation, but an observation.

Your continuing observance (and in part only) to a Law that you have died to
makes me wonder if you do understand what Christ accomplished for us.

Your posts, though oblique, tend to stay on the 'we must obey to remain'
side of things. 'Specially your favorites from The Revelation.
This also makes me wonder if you know what Christ accomplished for us.

If I had to guess I would say you do not believe in eternal security.
I would guess that you think God's power saved you,
but your own power (obedience to the Law) keeps you.
Which is not only sad, but unscriptural.

And without a whit of doubt, I love you, too.

What makes you despise obedience the Commandments of Yahvah God?

 

[SarahM777]

What makes you despise obedience the Commandments of Yahvah God?

I may be missing something but I don't think she said that she despises obedience to the commandments.

 

[loveme1]

I may be missing something but I don't think she said that she despises obedience to the commandments.

Have i ever said that i believe it is my own power that keeps me?

Or are only some allowed to air their observations?

 

[SarahM777]

All I was addressing was this comment you made (What makes you despise obedience the Commandments of Yahvah God?) nothing more and nothing less.

 

[loveme1]

All I was addressing was this comment you made (What makes you despise obedience the Commandments of Yahvah God?) nothing more and nothing less.

Fair enough, and i will say that Ellie did base her observations on much more than this thread and i will state that my observation is also based on this and other threads etc..
i'm trying to see why obedience to the Commandments would equate to a person not understanding what the Messiah accomplished on the cross for us.
If i can obtain a little more insight from Ellie on the matter then it may bring understanding between us.

 

[loveme1]

Matthew 5

[SUP]48 [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Messiah said the above.

This is not Skinsky saying this it is the Messiah right above... with everything else He spoke to us.

Yahshua the Messiah said to Keep and Teach the Commandments not loveme1.

Heavenly Father said those that Love Him keep His Commandments.. not loveme1

The Messiah said:

Matthew 22

[SUP]36 [/SUP]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How can we not understand what was accomplished by the Messiah because we do what the Messiah taught us to do?

In Revelation 2

2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I will give him the morning star.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

What should we reply here?

"its all done" "you did it all"? It may hold up with fellow men while you abide but it will not wash come the hour.



Yes by the Messiah's Righteousness have we been cleaned not by our own strength or works part of this is that to call Him Lord and for Him to acknowledge and not reject us we must build our house on His words.

The Holy Spirit is given to guide and comfort us we are purged of sin and made into servants to Worship in Spirit and Truth.

The Messiah HE that you can be forgiven and reconciled with Heavenly Father through is saying these things to you.

Read it and ask for understanding.

The Holy spirit is not blind or deaf .

indeed rightly dismiss loveme1's and the skinsky's but please do not dismiss what is written in the Bible.

 

[Skinski7]

Here is what we should do. We all sin it's human nature. God reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ.

So lets just forget about the sacrafice on the cross. Lets all get those whip thingies and walk around all day beating our backs over alternating shoulders. Lets walk around all day beating ourselves up mentally.

Forget growing in grace and faith and and learning to please a Holy God.

Jesus said "go and sin no more."

You won't find it taught anywhere in the Bible that "sinning is inevitable' therefore "don't worry about it."

The sin nature of man is what GROWS IN THEM due to the repeated action of sinning. In other words it BECOMES natural to sin because the brain becomes accustomed to it and an individual becomes addicted to the pleasure chemicals released in the brain when they sin.

Yet God did not design a human being to sin, God designed a human being to becomes addicted on the things of God. Thus when an individual yields to God, having forsaken rebellion, an addiction to God grows. This is the renewing of the mind that the Bible speaks about. We are to CONTINUALLY dwell on the things of God and the Spirit of God will QUICKEN OUR MORTAL bodies.

You are not "born" with a sin nature, that is a lie of Satan in order to get excuse and justify ongoing sin. You are "born" subject to the "passions and desires" of the flesh. It is the passions and desires of the flesh which DRAW men into temptation but it is an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING to temptation whereby SIN IS BORN.

Don't be deceived into thinking you were born a sin robot. That understanding is foreign to the Bible and was introduced several hundred years into the church.

Yes we need God to walk in truth because He is our guiding light and source of power. Salvation lies in yielding to God, ie. doing what he commanded.

Today so many people are deceived by a doctrine which teaches that "SIN YOU MUST" and therefore they view the work of Jesus Christ on the cross as a "CLOAK FOR ONGOING SIN." It is a damnable view which is sending million to perdition.

Jesus came to SET US FREE from the bondage of sin. Jesus did not come to leave us in a state of bondage with a judicial cloak. Jesus, in reference to committing sin, plainly stated that He can SET YOU FREE INDEED.

VERY FEW actually believe it. Most people who profess Jesus Christ today as their Lord DENY THE POWER OF GOD TO DELIVER THEM FROM THE BONDAGE OF SIN and thus they will argue in favour of the sin continuing.

When I speak of sin I am not talking about making mistakes due to ignorance. I am speaking of the willful sins of the flesh like fornication and porn watching, lying, hatred, idolatry, stealing, etc.

These things...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

These things...

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

These things...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.


Paul EXPLICITLY WARNS about these things and tells Christian's to forsake those things otherwise they will not enter the kingdom.

Many wolves in the pulpits excuse those sins and teach doctrines where YOU CAN do those things and STILL ENTER THE KINGDOM.

They are preaching "ye shall not surely die" dressed up in fancy theological language.

Don't be fooled by them. Dig deep into what the Bible plainly teaches and yield to God from the heart.

Obeying God is not self-righteousness. It is not being puffed up. It is not saying "look at me God and how good I am." It is not "denying Christ." Obeying God is not "adding to the Gospel." Obeying God is simply DOING what God has called all men to do.

Obedience is a dirty word to many today. They teach obedience is merely a "fruit" of salvation that occurs "sometime later on" but in the "meantime" you remain "carnal and sold under sin." I am sorry but that is NOT redemption. That is DECEPTION.

 

[Kefa52]

Jesus said "go and sin no more."

You won't find it taught anywhere in the Bible that "sinning is inevitable' therefore "don't worry about it."

The sin nature of man is what GROWS IN THEM due to the repeated action of sinning. In other words it BECOMES natural to sin because the brain becomes accustomed to it and an individual becomes addicted to the pleasure chemicals released in the brain when they sin.

Yet God did not design a human being to sin, God designed a human being to becomes addicted on the things of God. Thus when an individual yields to God, having forsaken rebellion, an addiction to God grows. This is the renewing of the mind that the Bible speaks about. We are to CONTINUALLY dwell on the things of God and the Spirit of God will QUICKEN OUR MORTAL bodies.

You are not "born" with a sin nature, that is a lie of Satan in order to get excuse and justify ongoing sin. You are "born" subject to the "passions and desires" of the flesh. It is the passions and desires of the flesh which DRAW men into temptation but it is an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING to temptation whereby SIN IS BORN.

Don't be deceived into thinking you were born a sin robot. That understanding is foreign to the Bible and was introduced several hundred years into the church.

Yes we need God to walk in truth because He is our guiding light and source of power. Salvation lies in yielding to God, ie. doing what he commanded.

Today so many people are deceived by a doctrine which teaches that "SIN YOU MUST" and therefore they view the work of Jesus Christ on the cross as a "CLOAK FOR ONGOING SIN." It is a damnable view which is sending million to perdition.

Jesus came to SET US FREE from the bondage of sin. Jesus did not come to leave us in a state of bondage with a judicial cloak. Jesus, in reference to committing sin, plainly stated that He can SET YOU FREE INDEED.

VERY FEW actually believe it. Most people who profess Jesus Christ today as their Lord DENY THE POWER OF GOD TO DELIVER THEM FROM THE BONDAGE OF SIN and thus they will argue in favour of the sin continuing.

When I speak of sin I am not talking about making mistakes due to ignorance. I am speaking of the willful sins of the flesh like fornication and porn watching, lying, hatred, idolatry, stealing, etc.

These things...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

These things...

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

These things...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.


Paul EXPLICITLY WARNS about these things and tells Christian's to forsake those things otherwise they will not enter the kingdom.

Many wolves in the pulpits excuse those sins and teach doctrines where YOU CAN do those things and STILL ENTER THE KINGDOM.

They are preaching "ye shall not surely die" dressed up in fancy theological language.

Don't be fooled by them. Dig deep into what the Bible plainly teaches and yield to God from the heart.

Obeying God is not self-righteousness. It is not being puffed up. It is not saying "look at me God and how good I am." It is not "denying Christ." Obeying God is not "adding to the Gospel." Obeying God is simply DOING what God has called all men to do.

Obedience is a dirty word to many today. They teach obedience is merely a "fruit" of salvation that occurs "sometime later on" but in the "meantime" you remain "carnal and sold under sin." I am sorry but that is NOT redemption. That is DECEPTION.

Sorry....I was being smart. I am burned out on the fluffy God attitude here. I am going to take a break.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Those who insist you can sin and not die, and I think we know that most mean fornicate, lie, cheat, steal, watch porn, and just be dead to the word of God, loving the world, are in great deception. Its a very simple message that has been clouded over by the many wolves who promote a form of godliness but deny the power of God over sin, temptation, and the devil!

Doing what is right through an obedient heart is not being self righteous, but its being submissive, and walking in newness of live which can only come when you lay aside ALL wickedness and filthiness, and seek Gods mercy, His mercy is abundant and still available to those who come to God on His terms, not some concocted notion you heard from the likes of Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, Ed Young, and many, many more wolves which would take me many pages to put their name on the wolf is sheep's clothing list!
Isa 3:10 Say to the righteous that it is well; for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.
Isa 3:11 Woe to the wicked! For the evil doing of his hand will be done to him.

The wicked arer simply those who persist in sin, defend sin, and live a gosless life while proclaming to be in the light!

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Sorry, was unable to edit this quote;

The wicked are simply those who persist in sin, defend sin, and live a godless life while proclaming to be in the light!