Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

[Tan]

I won't argue with you that the earth is still here...

But the Lord Jesus Christ absolutely has fulfilled all the Law. You see, that is the exception in that verse, till all be fulfilled.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Has the Lord done that, loved others?

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You see, that was the fulfilling of the Law and the prophets, when God showed His Love for us by sacrificing His Son on our behalf.

Not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the Law. Meaning until the Law has performed its whole purpose of bringing everyone it was designed to bring to Christ it is still in effect. But once the Law has brought the person to Christ they are no longer under the Law. That is the purpose of the Law, to bring people to Christ.

The Lord Jesus has fulfilled the Law but not everyone has come to Him so that the Law might be fulfilled in them as well.

Otherwise what exactly do you think the Lord meant when He said "It is Finished"...?

Let's go to the Book of I Timothy chapter one and see if Paul kills the Lords commandments. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)


What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.


Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)


Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.



Take a look. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20:13-17)



What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments.

 

[Tan]

And that is correct Matt 5:18 and not all is fullfilled for there are still the lost that have not received this truth and gotten victory over death it is all in the finished work of Christ Jesus at the cross where death occurred then the resurrection which is the victory and is waiting for all those that will receive truth and be freed from death as I and all that believe in Christ
1 Corinthians 15:24-26

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Thats Right...If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him...every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"(James 2:20).

 

[Grandpa]

Let's go to the Book of I Timothy chapter one and see if Paul kills the Lords commandments. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: (I Timothy 1:5)


What does he mean the end of the commandment is charity? What is charity? It means love fore mankind correct? Now take a look at these verses in the Book of Romans.


Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10)


Take heed to what Paul says, "love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love (which is charity) is the fulfilling of the law. Paul says, "If you LOVE your neighbor you will not, commit adultery, kill, steal, bear false witness nor covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Once again Paul is quoting from the books Moses! As a matter of fact Paul was quoting the Lord God, remember the Lord gave the Laws to Moses.



Take a look. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. (Exodus 20:13-17)



What do we see here? We see Paul is inline with the rest of the Bible. He is not trying to do away with the Lords commandments.

It would be futile for anyone to try to do away with God's Law. Not one jot or one tittle will be removed until all is fulfilled.

Obviously, not everyone has come to Christ, therefore those that have not are still under the Law.

Galatians 3:22-26
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24[/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25[/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The schoolmaster still has lots of work to do in bringing people to Christ. But we are expected to "graduate". There is a reason, a purpose, for the Law.

The biggest point that should have been illustrated to you by the Law is that we can't just choose Life. We can't just choose the blessing.

We need Christ. He is our blessing. He is our Life.

When a person comes to Christ they are changed by Him. Its not that the Law is done away in the person that has come to Christ. The Law is being fulfilled in the person that comes to Christ. He's the only Way for us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It would be futile for anyone to try to do away with God's Law. Not one jot or one tittle will be removed until all is fulfilled.

Obviously, not everyone has come to Christ, therefore those that have not are still under the Law.

Galatians 3:22-26
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24[/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25[/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The schoolmaster still has lots of work to do in bringing people to Christ. But we are expected to "graduate". There is a reason, a purpose, for the Law.

The biggest point that should have been illustrated to you by the Law is that we can't just choose Life. We can't just choose the blessing.

We need Christ. He is our blessing. He is our Life.

When a person comes to Christ they are changed by Him. Its not that the Law is done away in the person that has come to Christ. The Law is being fulfilled in the person that comes to Christ. He's the only Way for us.

Thats the point I don't get. How people can claim to not be under law, when they claim if we do not follow the law good enough, we will lose our salvation.

Then they get angry when we say they are placing themselves under law. When they should not get mad at us, but at satan who propogates such a gospel not from God.

As the passage said, all the law is good for is to shut us up, Because according to the law. no man will ever be good enough to earn salvation. let alone be bad enough to not earn it. we are ALL in the same boat.

 

[tribesman]

...we are ALL in the same boat.

The works- and selfrighteousness advocates are not in the same boat as you. They are always better than you. That's the aim of their dead religion: better than you. Tragic it is.

 

[heirofChrist]

I think OSAS is dangerous for people that believe you say "the prayer" then you can do whatever you want and still be saved. The bible does say if they went out from us they never were of us. It also said that he who began a good work in you will finish it. If someone is truly saved then God will complete the work he started otherwise he lied right?

 

[Grandpa]

The works- and selfrighteousness advocates are not in the same boat as you. They are always better than you. That's the aim of their dead religion: better than you. Tragic it is.

I sometimes wonder if they are exceptionally strong and awesome and maybe I am just exceptionally weak...

And then I read the bible... I see passages like - No Flesh shall Glory before God, and All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

And then best of all, My strength is made perfect in weakness...

 

[homwardbound]

Thats Right...If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him...every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"(James 2:20).

Tan when one has true Faith in God they have true works as a by-product of their belief and that is love to all and against such is no law now you pointed out rewards earthly rewards for the child to get a bike and this leads that we are to do works to get salvation and God my brother is opposite of the world and the world is opposite of God, In this world one works to gain a reward, in God's kingdom which is not of this world one through Faith in God gets the best reward ever possible and that is life ever lasting without works. So in response to that I work, not I but better yet the Holy Ghost does the work for I am in submission to God the Son God the Father, and brought together through God the Holy Ghost as one. I can tell you believe but brother please understand that works is nothing other than a by-product of Faith in Christ.
Ex: A fruit tree, call it an orange tree the branch on this tree does it work to produce the orange hanging from its branch?
That is right the branch does not produce it only bears the fruit, such as we are to be we cannot produce any fruit for we are only the branch. We can only bear the fruit that God produces in and through us, no flesh works only God works

 

[homwardbound]

I think OSAS is dangerous for people that believe you say "the prayer" then you can do whatever you want and still be saved. The bible does say if they went out from us they never were of us. It also said that he who began a good work in you will finish it. If someone is truly saved then God will complete the work he started otherwise he lied right?

Bingo it is all God.

 

[FORHISGLORY]

God decided to save who He is going to save before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1). The Bible teaches that those who perserve will be saved. A christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit(Eph.1:13-14). God knows who belongs to Him. Many people who have prayed the "sinners" prayer aren't saved(Romans 10:14). We are only saved by God's grace(Eph.2:8-9).

 

[Crossfire]

I sometimes wonder if they are exceptionally strong and awesome and maybe I am just exceptionally weak...

And then I read the bible... I see passages like - No Flesh shall Glory before God, and All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

And then best of all, My strength is made perfect in weakness...

Grandpa, there is none good but God, not one. However, what if God in his infinite goodness has provided for his children a dwelling place within Himself where one can find both peace and protection from the fiery darts of the enemy? The scriptures speak of such a place, but few have found it and even fewer believe.

Psalm 5: 11-12 (Amp) "But let all those who take refuge and put their trust in You rejoice; let them ever sing and shout for joy, because You make a covering over them and defend them; let those also who love Your name be joyful in You and be in high spirits. For You, Lord, will bless the [uncompromisingly] righteous [him who is upright and in right standing with You]; as with a shield You will surround him with goodwill (pleasure and favor)."

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa, there is none good but God, not one. However, what if God in his infinite goodness has provided for his children a dwelling place within Himself where one can find both peace and protection from the fiery darts of the enemy? The scriptures speak of such a place, but few have found it and even fewer believe.

Psalm 5: 11-12 (Amp) "But let all those who take refuge and put their trust in You rejoice; let them ever sing and shout for joy, because You make a covering over them and defend them; let those also who love Your name be joyful in You and be in high spirits. For You, Lord, will bless the [uncompromisingly] righteous [him who is upright and in right standing with You]; as with a shield You will surround him with goodwill (pleasure and favor)."

Its not a secret. Its the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That's who He Is.

 

[psychomom]

Its not a secret. Its the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That's who He Is.

"That's my brother!", she said with gratitude.

Keep preaching, it, Grandpa.
I'm listening. ♥

 

[homwardbound]

God decided to save who He is going to save before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1). The Bible teaches that those who perserve will be saved. A christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit(Eph.1:13-14). God knows who belongs to Him. Many people who have prayed the "sinners" prayer aren't saved(Romans 10:14). We are only saved by God's grace(Eph.2:8-9).

Go my brother this is truth

 

[PS]

Thomas Helwys was one of the joint founders of the Baptist denomination along with John Smyth. After breaking with Smyth in 1610, Helwys wrote "A Declaration of Faith of English People Remaining at Amsterdam in Holland in 1611." Helwys clearly communicates his stance regarding apostasy in point seven of the Declaration:

Men may fall away from the grace of GOD (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received and acknowledged (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY SPIRIT, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, and of the powers of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein and overcome (2 Peter 2:20). A righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). Therefore let no man presume to think that because he has, or once had grace, therefore he shall always have grace. But let all men have assurance, that if they continue to the end, they will be saved. Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

Wicki

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thomas Helwys was one of the joint founders of the Baptist denomination along with John Smyth. After breaking with Smyth in 1610, Helwys wrote "A Declaration of Faith of English People Remaining at Amsterdam in Holland in 1611." Helwys clearly communicates his stance regarding apostasy in point seven of the Declaration:

Men may fall away from the grace of GOD (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received and acknowledged (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY SPIRIT, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, and of the powers of the world to come (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein and overcome (2 Peter 2:20). A righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). Therefore let no man presume to think that because he has, or once had grace, therefore he shall always have grace. But let all men have assurance, that if they continue to the end, they will be saved. Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

Wicki

When will people understand what Grace is.

We will never as long as we live here on earth reach the point we will no longer need grace.

God is omniscient. He is not going to give people a life he calls eternal. A seal of the HS, and call it a guarantee UNTIL the day of redemption. A justification paid by his blood. And an adoption into his family he KNOWS is going to walk away later and deny him.

If people would learn about who God is and the power he has, this nonsense that people can walk away from God and forfiet salvation would go away!

 

[tribesman]

When will people understand what Grace is.

We will never as long as we live here on earth reach the point we will no longer need grace.

God is omniscient. He is not going to give people a life he calls eternal. A seal of the HS, and call it a guarantee UNTIL the day of redemption. A justification paid by his blood. And an adoption into his family he KNOWS is going to walk away later and deny him.

If people would learn about who God is and the power he has, this nonsense that people can walk away from God and forfiet salvation would go away!

They won't learn it as long as they sit under a conditional gospel. Conditioned on man, that is.

 

[Rock022]

When will people understand what Grace is.

We will never as long as we live here on earth reach the point we will no longer need grace.

God is omniscient. He is not going to give people a life he calls eternal. A seal of the HS, and call it a guarantee UNTIL the day of redemption. A justification paid by his blood. And an adoption into his family he KNOWS is going to walk away later and deny him.

If people would learn about who God is and the power he has, this nonsense that people can walk away from God and forfiet salvation would go away!

Indeed eternal we can not go to heaven with ought His grace. It is by grace that everything has been given to us. The blessed virgin Mary was FULL of grace, how wonderful that must have been.

The problem is that the word grace can be understood differently amongst christians. Now I believe grace is His love, His open arms waiting for us, His forgiveness. But just as we are saved by grace, not every person will be saved will they? His grace is much but our pride, greed, sins ext can take away our salvation, specially when we know of Him and what He ask's of us.

I have said we also are saved by faith plus works, but I do not think I have been clear on which works. Indeed works with ought faith are dead. And if we think we must work for salvation those are also dead works. But as we read in the bible to go and do good works, those are the works I talk about.

By the grace given to us and our faith in Him is that we are able to do this good works. Some say we do not work but it is God's grace that works trough us. This is a very fine line, one which we should not be troubled with. For indeed His grace lets us have faith, His grace lets us show good works, His grace let's us love Him.

But even born again or not people can loose salvation, because it is truly not what we do but what He wants. We can say we are born again until we are blue in the face, do you think that is what will save us. Remember He sees our hearts. The reason we catholics do not use the born again language is because this is between us and Him. We can mislead others by telling them we are born again but not truly be, we can even be convinced we are born again and be lying to our self with ought knowing it.

It is Only trough Gods Grace that we are who we are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Indeed eternal we can not go to heaven with ought His grace. It is by grace that everything has been given to us. The blessed virgin Mary was FULL of grace, how wonderful that must have been.

The problem is that the word grace can be understood differently amongst christians. Now I believe grace is His love, His open arms waiting for us, His forgiveness. But just as we are saved by grace, not every person will be saved will they? His grace is much but our pride, greed, sins ext can take away our salvation, specially when we know of Him and what He ask's of us.

As you just showed. I do not see how you can understand what Grace is.

why do we need grace? because of our pride, our greed and our sin, if we could ever stop doing ALL these things, we would no longer need grace would we? It is because we continue to do these things that we have to be maintained by grace,

What is sin? Anything which comes from Pride. What is greed? It also comes from Pride. I have earned the right to do, get or own this thing. What does scripture tell us? it says if we break even the LEAST of God's commands, we are found guilty of the whole law. Meaning? only 1 sin, no matter how little or inconsequential it may seem to us, is so evil in the site of God he can not deal with it. and the punishment of that, and all sin, is thus death, or separation from God! If the smallest of all sins can separate us from God. and as John says, we all sin continually. Then how can we ever earn the right to be saved? and considering this. we HAVE ALL earned the right to not be saved. No one is less worthy of being saved then the next person.

The problem is, people want to make a religious term out of the word which simply means undeserved merit. Or, A gift given through mercy. So how can you say those things can take away our salvation? if this is true. no one would get to heaven period!

I have said we also are saved by faith plus works, but I do not think I have been clear on which works. Indeed works with ought faith are dead. And if we think we must work for salvation those are also dead works. But as we read in the bible to go and do good works, those are the works I talk about.

And you would be wrong. We are not saved by faith plus any works. Paul makes it clear. it is not by works of righteousness (those works you speak of which are good) we have done, but we have been saved SOLELY by Gods mercy. There is no pipelin of grace, where we do a good deed, and this allows Gods grace to flow to us, that is not grace at all. That is earning a reward for a good deed performed. or a payment. No where in scripture does it say our salvation is a payment for our good works done. It says everywhere it is a gift of God. given by Grace, through FAITH. Faith is the pipeline from which Gods grace can be applied to us, NOT works, OF ANY KIND.

By the grace given to us and our faith in Him is that we are able to do this good works. Some say we do not work but it is God's grace that works trough us. This is a very fine line, one which we should not be troubled with. For indeed His grace lets us have faith, His grace lets us show good works, His grace let's us love Him.

More importantly, His grace gives us eternal life, Made us adopted as his sons and daughters, Made him our father, and not our executioner, Gives us eternal justification. based not on what we do, will do, or won;t do. But based solely on the work of the cross. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness. Either th eblood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin as scripture says, or we are still dead in our sin and have no hope no matter how good we try to be, or how hard we try to work.

But even born again or not people can loose salvation, because it is truly not what we do but what He wants. We can say we are born again until we are blue in the face, do you think that is what will save us. Remember He sees our hearts. The reason we catholics do not use the born again language is because this is between us and Him. We can mislead others by telling them we are born again but not truly be, we can even be convinced we are born again and be lying to our self with ought knowing it.

Thats the problem with the catholic faith then. Scripture tells us we can KNOW we have eternal life? what is eternal life? it is being born again. You have past from death to life in Christ.

If we can know we have eternal life. we can know we are born again. Yes. many people think they have it when they do not. But we know who those people are. james tells us, they have mere belief, and not faith (dead). we know who has it because they will change, will work. and glorify God in their works. not glorify self.

Your church has lied to you by telling you you can;t know. If you can not know. youhave to live in fear. God is not that way, he tells us he has not given us a spirit of fear, but of adoption, where we can cry out to him personally as our father. Not some priest who can not more forgive us our sins that anyone else.

Go to your father, God, Only he can save you.

It is Only trough Gods Grace that we are who we are.

yes. But not just through his grace, but his word (you know the word you state is not essential, is not the only means, is not so very good) And by experience (as God blesses you and you see him work in yours and others lives) this is how we learn to grow in grace, truth and love.

As scripture says, we love because God loved us first. If we have not experienced Gods full forgiveness, his charity, and his love, we will not have the capcity to love others, only fearful expectations from a fearful God.

 

[fredjames]

We are all saved. But if we don't work out our salvation in fear and trembling, how can we enter the place of rest?