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Balin - I'm with you son - but let me shed some light on my mission here - not to argue...you're right....but to share my convictions with people who may be searching for deeper meaning - explain the best way I know how and pray that someone is looking to EXPAND THE BORDERS of their faith.......OUTSIDE of the traditions of MAN'S DOCTRINE AND INTERPRETATIONS...we have to go back to our roots.....the APOSTLES' DOCTRINE they received from Christ..Jesus said YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN (John 3:7)....MUST BE......"WATER AND SPIRIT" (John 3:5) ...means what?.....BAPTIZED AND...RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT....not an option.....Peter re-interrates in ACTS 2:38....'Repent and...BE BAPTIZED and...RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST"......Paul tells us in (Romans 8:9) ..."Without it...we are none of His"...why?...because you need the Holy Ghost to lead you into the FULLNESS of God's TRUTH...and that's more than JUST loving your neighbour......if it was JUST about that, we wouldn't need the Epistles to help us live an overcoming life now would we ....if we could take care of the sin issue by just loving each other, there would have been no need for the Lord to come and die on a cross....Lord bless - Paul
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HOLD THE FORT NATHAN - IF YOU'RE SO DETERMINED TO HANG ON TO YOUR INTERPRETATION, I CAN'T SAY ANYTHING ELSE THAT I HAVEN'T ALREADY SAID - YOU SEE IT OR YOU DON'T - WE HAVE THE FREEDOM TO BELIEVE WHAT WE CHOOSE TO - PLEASE DON'T BE OFFENDED BY MY CONVICTIONS - KEEP YOUR HEART AND MIND OPEN ALONG YOUR JOURNEY - ASK THE LORD FOR REVELATIONS - I DID - I HELD FAST TO YOUR CONVICTIONS A LONG TIME AGO...THEN I MET JESUS CHRIST AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR - HE OPENED MY UNDERSTANDING AND GAVE ME HIS INTERPRETATION OF HIS WORD...NOT THE ONE THAT HAD BEEN HANDED DOWN TO ME FROM MY PARENTS...TEACHERS AND THE CLERGY........NOW I'M ABOUT DOING HIS WORK... SHARING MY EXPERIENCE OVER 30 YEARS AS A STUDENT OF THE WORD .....NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO WANT TO SEE IT....HE ASSURED ME OF THAT.......LORD BLESS YOU SON.......
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To: Eagleridge
I'm now commenting on the born again scripture . Not the trinity .
Not to nit pick . But I see a a issue in your reasoning about the ; being born again, scripture. The English Bible should not be your final authority on a matter. But you should consult the manuscripts we have of the Bible.
You can do this with a Strong's Concordance of the King James Bible.
I think that we can be in agreement that if one idea, is wrong, and we see that idea as sure or true, that one little thought can be used to help guide us or lead us to the next. But if the initial assumption was in wrong; it can lead us off course. The farther we travel from there. the farther away from our destination we become.
To use this scripture as an example :
John 3:1-21 (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Let me see now, what this word actually is in the Greek it was taken from :
again :
anwqen
anothen
an'-o-then
from anw - ano 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.
Now lets re read this :
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man first be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
What does above mean ?
Gen1:
Let us make man in Our,,, image. Where did your soul come from ? Well it came from God. All souls belong to God-(Ezekiel 18:4)
The angels that were not born from above, of women in the water of the womb, left their place in heaven, and fell from above that Jude plainly teaches-(Jude 1:6)
Christ is saying, you must be born from above,from heaven to the water of the womb, to even participate in Salvation.
Not as the angels did in Gen 6:
So you see. if your not careful it is easy to be lead from the truth as so many in the world are. This is a small illustration of the confusion people are in now. This is not the worst of it.
I'm now commenting on the born again scripture . Not the trinity .
Not to nit pick . But I see a a issue in your reasoning about the ; being born again, scripture. The English Bible should not be your final authority on a matter. But you should consult the manuscripts we have of the Bible.
You can do this with a Strong's Concordance of the King James Bible.
I think that we can be in agreement that if one idea, is wrong, and we see that idea as sure or true, that one little thought can be used to help guide us or lead us to the next. But if the initial assumption was in wrong; it can lead us off course. The farther we travel from there. the farther away from our destination we become.
To use this scripture as an example :
John 3:1-21 (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Let me see now, what this word actually is in the Greek it was taken from :
again :
anwqen
anothen
an'-o-then
from anw - ano 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.
Now lets re read this :
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man first be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
What does above mean ?
Gen1:
Let us make man in Our,,, image. Where did your soul come from ? Well it came from God. All souls belong to God-(Ezekiel 18:4)
The angels that were not born from above, of women in the water of the womb, left their place in heaven, and fell from above that Jude plainly teaches-(Jude 1:6)
Christ is saying, you must be born from above,from heaven to the water of the womb, to even participate in Salvation.
Not as the angels did in Gen 6:
So you see. if your not careful it is easy to be lead from the truth as so many in the world are. This is a small illustration of the confusion people are in now. This is not the worst of it.
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R
father and son and holy spirit are not just titles... the father begot the son...the son prays to the father...the father and son send the holy spirit...
when you can beget yourself...make requests of yourself...and send yourself out...then i will reconsider your analogy...
oh and the father and son and holy spirit are all three yahweh...
when you can beget yourself...make requests of yourself...and send yourself out...then i will reconsider your analogy...
oh and the father and son and holy spirit are all three yahweh...
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NATHAN - OF COURSE - FROM ABOVE - YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT ARGUING THAT WE NEED TO BE BAPTIZED - JESUS GAVE US THE EXAMPLE - AND JOHN TELLS US THAT UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND...ARE BAPTIZED WE CANNOT HOPE TO BE SAVED - THAT'S THE WATER EXPERIENCE - AND "FROM ABOVE' - IS THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT EXPERIENCE- GOD IN US - DAY OF PENTECOST (ACTS 2) - PETER'S FIRST SERMON TO THE MASSES IN ACTS 2:38 TELLS THEM:" REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST AND.......YOU SHALL (A COMMANDMENT AND A PROMISE) RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST" ....THAT'S THE FROM ABOVE EXPERIENCE - THAT'S THE BIBLICAL BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE THAT EVEN HIS MOTHER MARY HAD TO EXPERIENCE IF SHE HOPED TO BE SAVED - GOES BACK TO THE TABERNACLE PLAN IN THE WILDERNESS - TYPES AND SHADOWS OF THESE THINGS TO COME - THE SALVATION PLAN - THE KEYS TO THE DOOR (JESUS CHRIST) TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD - WITHOUT THE HOLY GHOST, WE ARE LEFT TO OUR OWN INTERPRETATIONS - I WAS BORN AGAIN 30 YEARS AGO AND REAPING THE BENEFITS (REVELATIONS) EVER SINCE AND SHARING THEM WITH PEOPLE THAT STILL REJECT THEM - BUT IF I CAN REACH JUST ONE HUNGRY HEART - BE WORTH ALL THE PERSECUTION AND REJECTION - GOD BLESS
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RACHEL - HE WAS FULLY MAN AND FULLY GOD - AS A MAN HE SLEPT AND HUNGERED - AS GOD HE WALKED ON WATER AND RAISED THE DEAD - AS A MAN HE PRAYED (TO GIVE US THE EXAMPLE - TO "FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS" (MATH 3:15) - AS A MAN HE SUBJECTED HIMSELF TO THE WILL OF HIS "FATHER" - AS THE MAN HE NEVER DID ANYTHING OF HIS OWN BUT ALWAYS SOUGHT THE "FATHER" - THE FLESH IN SUBMISSION TO THE SPIRIT OF THE ALMIGHTY - THE VESSEL, THE TABERNACLE......GIVING US A VISIBLE INSIGHT INTO THE MANIFESTATIONS - GOD AND MAN - READ WHAT ELSE I HAD TO SAY ON THIS MATTER IN THIS THREAD - GOD BLESS AND THANX FOR SHARING -
J
Jhn 1:33 KJV - And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Mat 3:16 KJV - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
This "Spirit" is Jehovah. When The Body was in the water, it was not subject to the "fallen". Angels can not enter water. Thus Jehovah appeared and returned to the Body when it came out.
Mat 3:16 KJV - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
This "Spirit" is Jehovah. When The Body was in the water, it was not subject to the "fallen". Angels can not enter water. Thus Jehovah appeared and returned to the Body when it came out.
J
Moreover is the vision of Stephen:
Act 7:55 KJV - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 KJV - And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
The humanity:
Jhn 20:17 KJV - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Jesus was a Jew. He distinguishes between The Father and his God, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Act 7:55 KJV - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 KJV - And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
The humanity:
Jhn 20:17 KJV - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Jesus was a Jew. He distinguishes between The Father and his God, The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
J
"I and the Father are one", refers to thought, not to number.
Jhn 8:28 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jhn 5:19 KJV - Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:30 KJV - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jhn 6:38 KJV - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 12:49 KJV - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50 KJV - And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jhn 8:28 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jhn 5:19 KJV - Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:30 KJV - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jhn 6:38 KJV - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 12:49 KJV - For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Jhn 12:50 KJV - And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
E
Psalm 17:8 - refers to WINGS - does that mean God has WINGS? ...HE IS A SPIRIT.....NO HANDS OR ARMS ....the right hand of God means ...THE POWER OF GOD........throughout the Bible...and if you read REVELATIONS 4:2 ..what does John see? ONE on the throne...not THREE.....if they are equal...why didn't he see THREE?...because the body (Christ) had served it's purpose as the temple or the tabernacle that housed the Spirit and now fused (for lack of a better word) into the Spirit that IS God......the two manifestations....the man Christ and Holy Spirit has served their purpose according to prophecy......and reconciliation of man back to a Holy God.
J
I was with you until you made a crucial mistake:
God did not die. He is everlasting. It was the humanity and the Body that died.
Rom 8:11 KJV - But if the Spirit (Jehovah) of him that raised up Jesus (Humanity) from the dead dwell in you, he (the Father) that raised up Christ (the Body) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (the Father) (Holy) Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 6:4 KJV - Therefore we are buried with him (Humanity) by baptism into death: that like as Christ (the Body) was raised up from the dead by the glory (Holy Spirit) of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
God did not die. He is everlasting. It was the humanity and the Body that died.
Rom 8:11 KJV - But if the Spirit (Jehovah) of him that raised up Jesus (Humanity) from the dead dwell in you, he (the Father) that raised up Christ (the Body) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (the Father) (Holy) Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 6:4 KJV - Therefore we are buried with him (Humanity) by baptism into death: that like as Christ (the Body) was raised up from the dead by the glory (Holy Spirit) of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.