God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

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psychomom

Guest
#221
#221
PS said:
That's God's foreknowledge, He knew who would believe and repent of their sins of their own free will.
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Where does the Word say this? That a man can choose this?

PS said:
We need to come to our Heavenly Father like the children we are repenting of our sins and throw ourselves on His redeeming mercy for He has paid the price in our room and stead.
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But you see, the Bible describes us as not just sinners, rebellious to the core, but as DEAD. :)
Just how can a dead man, enslaved by sin, do those wonderful things?

What do you do with John 6?
Which says we can't come to Christ unless the Father draws (drags) us?
And that all who come to Christ are given to Him by God the Father?

What do you say to the verses I quoted in post #212?

Is Christ the Author of your salvation?
Or are you, bu your own 'free will' choice?

I'm not trying to provoke you in the sense of making you angry...
just trying to provoke you to think about it. :)
-ellie
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#222
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#222
PS said:
We need to come to our Heavenly Father like the children we are repenting of our sins and throw ourselves on His redeeming mercy for He has paid the price in our room and stead.
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I agree whole heartedly.
But the point of this thread is who draws us to repentance?
The Bible shows over and over it is God and not ourselves.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#223
#223
PS said:
That's God's foreknowledge, He knew who would believe and repent of their sins of their own free will.
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I'm sorry, PS--I don't mean to hammer you, so tell me to hush! at any time, okay? :)

But if what you say is so, why does God say this?
"Those whom He foreknew He also predestined" (Rom 8:29)
The verb tenses there are exactly the same.

If God looked down the corridors of time and saw that you would choose Him and I would not,
then who is responsible for your salvation? Who gets the credit and the glory?
Whose will is sovereign, in that scenario? wouldn't that give you more power than God?

Do you see that your view is just as fatalistic? For if God saw that you would choose Him,
it's a done deal, yeah?
You also cannot logically argue with any sort of consistency that God foreknew who would choose Him
AND
say that God is trying to save every man.
If God already knew that some would choose Him, then how absurd would it be for God to then argue with Himself that more people than those could be saved?

Okay, I'll hush now. :)

grace to you, and peace, in the Love of God-
ellie

 
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Abiding

Guest
#224
#224
psychomom said:
It really does all go back to first cause.

Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the cause of it. :)
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Than that would mean that you were a saved unbeliever.a regenerated unbeliever? therefore no need for faith at all.
An no need to have put your trust in the Gospel. And not even any need for the gospel either.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#225
#225
Those tiring philosophical arguements only work on the ones that havnt seen past them and refuted them.
Its called entering your philosophical views into your exegesis. Or handling the word of God decietfully. Or
just plain bad hermeneutics.:p
 
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Abiding

Guest
#226
#226
Oh gee i must believe in unlimited atonement:cool:
 
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Abiding

Guest
#228
#228
man is completely capable of willing something past his nature.
all man can see whats best for them and go past their personal desires to do what is better.

If its stands to reason that no man can go past his nature..than adam and eve were sinners before they sinned.

no doubt that faith and repentance and salvation is all of the lord, and yes we are a mess since the fall

but if it pleased God to ordain man who believe to be saved then there is no contradiction to His sovereinty
but even more so.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#229
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#229
Abiding said:
Than that would mean that you were a saved unbeliever.a regenerated unbeliever? therefore no need for faith at all.
An no need to have put your trust in the Gospel. And not even any need for the gospel either.
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You speak of faith as generating from the vessel.
Do you generate your own belief?
Yes or no.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#230
#230
faith comes from the gospel the word of God. hearing it produces faith
acting on or believing on it makes it reality and proof of what cant be seen.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#231
#231
a better question to draw me in would be do we have a choice
to have faith or not.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#233
#233
Of coarse!

Hebrews 11:24-28

[SUP]24 By faith Moses[/SUP], when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,[SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][a][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
[SUP]27 By faith he forsook[/SUP] Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.


Hebrews 10:35-39

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“For yet a little while,
And He[SUP][a][/SUP] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][b][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#234
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#234
Did Moses go to Pharaoh and give him his two weeks notice?
Or did he flee fearing retribution for killing a brutish egyptian guard?
Yet he left by faith, it is written.
Moses was called of God from the start of his life.
Remember his mother hiding him in a basket in the reeds when he was an infant?
And being found by pharaohs daughter? - Thus the wheels of providence were set in motion.
So Moses choose to kill the guard because he wanted to suffer the afflictions of the people
of God forty years after living in the desert? - Is that your contention?
 
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Abiding

Guest
#235
#235
I believe in providence...very much so.
The rest of that isnt clear to me
i didnt bring any of that up.
Nor do i see a question.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#236
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#236
RickShafer said:
I agree whole heartedly.
But the point of this thread is who draws us to repentance?
The Bible shows over and over it is God and not ourselves.
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I have only just got up and I am going out in a few minutes so it will be tomorrow before I am back on, but just to say that I agree the Spirit draws us, but because of the nature of man, few respond. We are wilful and disobedient by nature I am afraid to say and it isn't only the Israelites "who have turned every one to his own way."

.
 
RickShafer

RickShafer

Banned
#237
Sep 8, 2012
4,367
60
0
#237
Abiding said:
I believe in providence...very much so.
The rest of that isnt clear to me
i didnt bring any of that up.
Nor do i see a question.
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It is a fact that Moses fled egypt.
It is also a fact that by faith he chose to suffer with God's chosen nation.
Now:
1) Did Moses make a cognitive choice to leave egypt? Or did he flee in fear after he murdered a man?
2) Did he choose to suffer the afflictions of the people of God when he was still in pharaoh's household?
3) Yet this providence was called faith by the writer of hebrews.
4) Who developed this "faith" ? Was it God, or was it Moses?
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#238
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#238
BarlyGurl said:
It is a work, it requires the intellect and reasoning power before the will engages..... that we have an opportunity to repent is gift.
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i like this Barly...agreed repentance involves 'work'...and this: "requires the intellect and reasoning power before the will engages":) < yup.

can you expand on this at all? i know this is just discussion...but metinks you are on to something.

since the will is not engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God;
the intellect and reasoning power is needed before the will engages;
and opportunity to repent is gift;

is the intellect and reasoning power engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God?

zone
 
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Abiding

Guest
#239
#239
RickShafer said:
It is a fact that Moses fled egypt.
It is also a fact that by faith he chose to suffer with God's chosen nation.
Now:
1) Did Moses make a cognitive choice to leave egypt? Or did he flee in fear after he murdered a man?both
2) Did he choose to suffer the afflictions of the people of God when he was still in pharaoh's household i rekon so
3) Yet this providence was called faith by the writer of hebrews no it wasnt
4) Who developed this "faith" ? Was it God, or was it Moses?
Click to expand...
Moses ......
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#240
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#240
zone said:
i like this Barly...agreed repentance involves 'work'...and this: "requires the intellect and reasoning power before the will engages":) < yup.

can you expand on this at all? i know this is just discussion...but metinks you are on to something.

since the will is not engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God;
the intellect and reasoning power is needed before the will engages;
and opportunity to repent is gift;

is the intellect and reasoning power engaged [inclined?] naturally toward God?

zone
Click to expand...
sorry Barly. i should have included this passage as it is what came to mind when i read your post -

Ephesians 2
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 
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