God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[Abiding]

The fall of man was inevitable.

Proverbs 16:4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.




Proverbs 16:33
English Standard Version (ESV)
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the Lord.




Proverbs 16:9
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 The heart of man plans his way,
but the Lord establishes his steps.




Lamentations 3:37-38
English Standard Version (ESV)
37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

This is the word of God. Now what spin is put on it is what we need to watch out for.
Its a very tempting passage. And can infer more than one thing. ive seen it done. Alot.

 

[Abiding]

Actually in my memory which is very sketchy back ages ago trying to glean all i could once
on Martins position on the atonement. He thought it evil to even think about
such things....im meaning about who were the elect. Which left me with the impression
that he himself saw into the abyss of the implications of limited atonement and
couldnt handle it. So im not surprised there are Lutheran churches that havnt
really systemized that.

 

[zone]

I think you know well that a monergists denies man has a say so in his salvation
or damnation. And deny that God would even give man the grace to choose period.
So like i said monergists are "L" Men are just whatever..their will means less than nothing.

And noone i know or have read outside a mental institution would think or say man
has the ability to quicken himself to immortality.

which is it Mikey?
does man have the capacity to quicken himself?
if it isn't for immortality or damnation, what's it for?

I think you know well that a monergists denies man has a say so in his salvation
or damnation. And deny that God would even give man the grace to choose period.

Lutherans say men CAN walk away after being enlightened. so they can choose. just like Heb 6 says.
they clearly say that though God is completely responsible for quickening - man is responsible for abiding.

so, no you do not understand all definitions of monergism.
you're on an anti-calvin thing right now, and so that's all you see

So like i said monergists are "L" Men are just whatever..their will means less than nothing.

L-men?
what's that?
Limited Atonement men? Lutherans don't teach Limited Atonement - you know that.

i know you virtually dismissed this discussion when you tossed out words like "universalism", etc. (parroting?)

but let me ask you Mike:

if all men will not be saved, was the Atonement universally efficatious?
or was it L'd to those who were saved?

even 100% freewillies are L-men....aren't they?

 

[zone]

Actually in my memory which is very sketchy back ages ago trying to glean all i could once
on Martins position on the atonement. He thought it evil to even think about
such things....im meaning about who were the elect. Which left me with the impression
that he himself saw into the abyss of the implications of limited atonement and
couldnt handle it. So im not surprised there are Lutheran churches that havnt
really systemized that.

would you prefer that they systemize it?
sorry mike....i'm just trying to get a read on your (new? revised?) theological and soteriological position.
i reckon it'll come to me.
i sure don't want to argue any more today since i don't know at this time exactly what you believe.

love you.
kath

 

[zone]

I like this..we have faith after we hear the word of truth.

why is that?
why couldn't you have any faith before you heard the God-breathed Word of truth?
or could you?

 

[zone]

apparently i may be working from entirely corrupt interpretations of the greek here.
maybe someone else has a better exegesis of this.
Peter was among the elect remnant out of Israel. wasn't he?

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble.

..................................................................

eklogé: a (divine) selection
Original Word: ἐκλογή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eklogé
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-log-ay')
Short Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice by God
Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice (by God).

Cognate: 1589 eklogḗ (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, selection out of and to a given outcome; (theologically) election. See 1586 (eklegomai).

[1589 /eklogḗ ("divine selection") occurs seven times in the Greek NT. The cognate verb 1586 /eklégomai ("select, choose out") occurs 22 times "and is always in the Greek middle voice" (DNTT, 1, 538).]



Word Origin
from eklegó
Definition
a (divine) selection
NASB Translation
choice (4), choosing (1), chosen (1), those who were chosen (1).

STRONGS NT 1589: ἐκλογή

ἐκλογή, ἐκλογῆς, ἡ (ἐκλέγω), election, choice;

a. the act of picking out, choosing: σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς (the genitive of quality; cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3 b.; (Buttmann, 161 (140f))), equivalent to ἐκλεκτόν, namely, τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 9:15; specifically used of that act of God's free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; — ἡ κατ' ἐκλογήν προφεσις, the decree made from choice (A. V. the purpose according to election, cf. Winer's Grammar, 193 (182)), Romans 9:11 (cf. Fritzsche at the passage, p. 298ff); — particularly that by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ, Romans 11:28; κατ' ἐκλογήν χάριτος, according to an election which is due to grace, or a gracious election, Romans 11:5; with the genitive of the person elected, 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10.

b. the thing or person chosen: equivalent to ἐκλεκτοί, Romans 11:7. (Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, Diodorus, Josephus, Dionysius Halicarnassus, others.)

................................


Strong's Greek 1589
7 Occurrences

ἐκλογὴ — 1 Occ.
ἐκλογὴν — 5 Occ.
ἐκλογῆς — 1 Occ.

Acts 9:15 N-GFS
BIB: ὅτι σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς ἐστίν μοι
NAS: to him, Go, for he is a chosen instrument
KJV: he is a chosen vessel unto me,
INT: for a vessel of choice is to me
Romans 9:11 N-AFS
BIB: ἡ κατ' ἐκλογὴν πρόθεσις τοῦ
NAS: according to [His] choice would stand,
KJV: according to election might stand,
INT: the according to election purpose

Romans 11:5 N-AFS
BIB: λεῖμμα κατ' ἐκλογὴν χάριτος γέγονεν
NAS: according to [God's] gracious choice.
KJV: according to the election of grace.
INT: a remnant according to election of grace there has been

Romans 11:7 N-NFS
BIB: ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν οἱ
NAS: it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained
KJV: but the election hath obtained it,
INT: but [the] elect obtained [it]

Romans 11:28 N-AFS
BIB: δὲ τὴν ἐκλογὴν ἀγαπητοὶ διὰ
NAS: but from the standpoint of [God's] choice they are beloved
KJV: as touching the election, [they are] beloved
INT: however the election beloved on account of

1 Thessalonians 1:4 N-AFS
BIB: θεοῦ τὴν ἐκλογὴν ὑμῶν
NAS: beloved by God, [His] choice of you;
KJV: beloved, your election of God.
INT: God the election of you


i have yet had anyone explain to me how Paul was not called and chosen in spite of himself.

 

[zone]

and i'm not even a calvinist.
so what are all those passages doing in there?
was the election based on something other than God's choice?
where does it say that?

 

[jimmydiggs]

This is the word of God.

Yes.

Now what spin is put on it is what we need to watch out for.

No-spin zone, I promise.

Its a very tempting passage.

Not really.

And can infer more than one thing.

Sure.

ive seen it done. Alot.

Don't doubt it.

Point remains, God is sovereign over everything.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Point remains, God is sovereign over everything.

So are you saying GOD decides by some method (completely unknown to us) that some people are elected to salvation and some are not? Or are you saying God has given us a choice power to accept His gift of salvation on His terms? Or something else entirely?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

tulip or calvinism go togather. Pretty much they intertwine and cant
do much alone.

total depravity is what necessitates limited atonement.

The idear is that man is incapable of responding to the gospel unaided.
Which for the most part id agree. But the gospel itself is what saves and it has
in it the power of Gods grace enabling men to believe if he chooses to also enabled by the Holyspirit.
Who Jesus said would convict the world of sin and about Him.

But some say even with all that there is nothing in a man that would make him will that.
And that noone can will something thats apart from his nature...so i keep asking
what was Adams problem? was he created sinful? But get no answer.

Mixing philosophy with scripture always causes these problems that never get answered.
But we do have answers right there in the bible.

Amen!

I am reminded of John 1: 12

But as many as have received him, TO THEM he gave the RIGHT (In greek, power or authority) to become children of God (born again) to those who believe in his name.

Who did he regenerate and make children of God? Those who came to him first. through belief. It gets no more clearer than this.

 

[Abiding]

Zone, Posts are getting to long for me. I believe just what you say lutherans believe.

Too bad Monergists have such divisions ill have to stop using that term till
i get better definitions.

My position hasnt changed. regeneration is not illumination.
efficatiousness has nothing to do with its capacity.

Romans 5 makes that very clear.

Try to not cut snippets of my posts and combine them.
ill just ignore that. i cant answer random questions
shoved together either. Maybe try one post at a time
or just let em go.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why is that?
why couldn't you have any faith before you heard the God-breathed Word of truth?
or could you?

No we could not. How could we?

How could we know we are sinners?
How could we know we are condemned
How could we know we need grace?

the amazing thing is. God wrote these things in our hearts.. so we are without excuse.

Why do you want to give people an excuse by not being able to know??

 

[Abiding]

Point remains, God is sovereign over everything.

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right Jimmy, has anyone told you lately He wasnt?

 

[BarlyGurl]

>>>> regeneration is not illumination.<<<

I agree.... a person can have considerable scripture knowledge and STILL be unregenerate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Posts are getting to long for me. I believe just what you say lutherans believe.

Too bad Monergists have such divisions ill have to stop using that term till
i get better definitions.

My position hasnt changed. regeneration is not illumination.
efficatiousness has nothing to do with its capacity.

Romans 5 makes that very clear.

Try to not cut snippets of my posts and combine them.
ill just ignore that. i cant answer random questions
shoved together either. Maybe try one post at a time
or just let em go.

This is why I say lets stop arguing doctrines of men, and lets just see what the bible says..

 

[Abiding]

Okeydokey

 

[Abiding]

Ok here goes:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 99%"]<< Romans 5 >>
King James Version[/TD]
[TD="width: 1%"] [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[HR][/HR]1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

>>>> regeneration is not illumination.<<<

I agree.... a person can have considerable scripture knowledge and STILL be unregenerate.

So true, If total depravity at its core was true, no one could understand a word of scripture. period.. And thus they could not even understand they are rightly judged and why they are rightly judged, as Romans 1 states they not only know. but fully understand it.

 

[Abiding]

This is why I say lets stop arguing doctrines of men, and lets just see what the bible says..

Ok whats in chapter 5 that can tell us the scope of the atonement?
12-19 have the strongest part

 

[jimmydiggs]

So are you saying GOD decides by some method (completely unknown to us) that some people are elected to salvation and some are not? Or are you saying God has given us a choice power to accept His gift of salvation on His terms? Or something else entirely?

Matthew 11:25-26
King James Version (KJV)
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

John 10:26
King James Version (KJV)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 12:37-40
King James Version (KJV)
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 9:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 11:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Acts 4:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Acts 2:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Romans 9:19-22
King James Version (KJV)
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Daniel 4:35
King James Version (KJV)
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Isaiah 46:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


1 Peter 1:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 1:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Just a start on short notice.