The Trinity

mark54 · Feb 10, 2013

Elin said:

Interesting
So we are to ignore very plainly written scripture for it may well be unreliable.
So although there is no verse of scripture in the bible that states flesh and blood will enter Heaven, we are to ignore Paul who plainly states flesh and blood will not enter the kingdom of Heaven

Originally Posted by mark54

He is also right that Christ is not possessed of flesh and blood in Heaven, for flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven(1Cor15:50)(Mark)

Jesus does NOT have a flesh and blood body now in heaven(ECCL12&13)

Now you took issue with the above two statements, and condsidered them errors. I have asked you if you believe Christ now dwells in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood. You have thus far not answered the question, which surpises me. For I don't see how you can take issue with the above two statements if you do not know if Christ dwells in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood or not.
How can you criticise statements if you have no firm opinion as to whether they are accurate or not. I don't understand
Can I ask you once more
Do you believe Christ dwells now in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood?

Elin · Feb 10, 2013

mark54 said:

Paul plainly teaches that we will have glorified physical bodies in heaven.
He does not specify their anatomical composition, but he is clear that they are physical.

In context, "flesh and blood" does not refer to the anatomical composition of human bodies, but to the natural fallen sinful bodies we received at birth from the natural man Adam, as compared to the "spiritual" sinless, glorious body we will receive at the resurrection from the spiritual--not natural--second Adam, Jesus Christ.

[Note that in Paul's usage, "spirit" and "spiritual" do not refer to, nor do they mean the same thing.
"spirit" refers to the nature of the being, immaterial as distinct from physical.
"Spiritual" refers to the domain of the Holy Spirit.
Satan is a spirit (immaterial), but he is not "spiritual" in the Biblical sense of the word.
The man Jesus was "spiritual," but he was not a spirit (immaterial), as is Satan.]

If "flesh and blood" means the natural sinful body, my answer is: there will be no natural sinful bodies in heaven.

If "flesh and blood" means "physical" as opposed to "spirit," my answer is: there will be physical bodies in heaven.

We are not agreed on the contextual meaning of "flesh and blood," so see my answers above.

Tintin · Feb 10, 2013

Elin, I think you're doing a superb job of explaining the Trinity and the nature of Heaven. Cheering you on!

mark54 · Feb 10, 2013

Elin said:

So you cannot answer the question as to whether Christ dwells now in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood. I assume therefore you do not know the answer. So I am bewildered as to how you can criticise statements by others who say Christ does not dwell now in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood.
You refuse to accept the plain words of Paul that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but simply use the wrod context to refuse to accept his plainly stated words.
In other words, it is your human exegesis against the plain words of Paul.
As he said himself
The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile
1Cor3:2o

Elin · Feb 10, 2013

mark54 said:

I also refuse to accept the plain words of the Psalmist: "there is no God," and both for the same reason.

It's really easy to understand.

crossnote · Feb 10, 2013

mark54 said:

I think Elin gave you a crystal clear answer. Let me ask, do you believe that Christ redeemed our bodies just to turn around and not have one himself? Do you believe from the time of His Incarnation, Jesus will be forever a true man as well as true God?

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

Elin said:

No it is not easy to understand, you are grasping at straws in reality. For you cannot plainly state if you believe Christ dwells in a body of flesh and blood in Heaven. And if it was easy for you to explain you would not have to avoid answering that simple question. If we take your logic we may as well question ,much of what is plainly written and question if it is the truth if we cannot fit it into your 'box' of belief.

Christ reigns now, in Heaven and on earth for the Father has put everything under his feet. You believe Christ is over all(apart obviously from the Father) in A perishable boldy of flesh and blood?

Who, being in very nature[SUP][a][/SUP] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
[SUP]7[/SUP]rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[SUP][b][/SUP] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father

Chriast humbled himself taking the nature of a servant and was made in human likeness, but not now. He has been exalted to the highest place and reigns over all. But not in a perishable body of flesh and blood.

You have no biblical text froim the bible to say Christ dwells in Heaven now in a body of flesh and blood. So you have to do your elongated exegesis, which ignores the plain words of scripture.
Do you believe Christ existed in flesh and blood before he came to this earth?
You see I can answer that easily. He is not humbled now,he has been exalted to the highest place.
The body that is sown perishable is raised imperishable, and the imperishable of flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven
Your Saviour reigns over all in Heaven and on earth, but not in a weak body of flesh and blood. He took on flesh and blood while he walked this earth, he is not in flesh and blood now
If you have a scripture to say he is, please produce it. But you will have to prove Paul wrong in doing so.

As for Spirit alone not being able to sit on a throne in Heaven. This I am afraid is so weak rationalisation, but is what you must do when you refuse to accept the spiritual reality.

To him who overcomes I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne
Rev3:21

I assume you accept Father is Spirit alone, but He still sits on his throne.

I really must leave it there, for I know as you will not accept the plain text you will not accept what I write, but cling what may to your unscriptural belief that Christ dwells in Heaven now, in a perishable body of flesh and blood. The Christ who has been exalted to the highest place, he reigns over all in Heaven and on earth(apart from the Father)

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

crossnote said:

A crystal clear answer?

Obviously you see through a baised lens. Flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven. It appears you lay greater emphasis on Elins's words than the Apostle Paul's, obviously because you have the same erroneous belief

Can you confirm you believe Christ dwells in Heaven now in a body of human flesh and blood?
Or will you give me a detailed explanation as to their being more than one type of flesh and blood and we need to understand the context of this, etc, etc, etc

wordhelpsme · Feb 11, 2013

Jesus declared himself to be God's Son.

He never said he was God.

Why didn't he say I AM GOD?

His Father said this is my son.

Why can't we just believe this simple teaching?

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

wordhelpsme said:

I am not responding to your specific point, but the issue in general of accepting simple teaching.

I believe 'scholars and theologians' have emptied the pure and simple Gospel of much of its power. Man has poured over the scriptures relentlessly, ever searching and striving to uncover new, hidden depths of truth within its pages. We need to ask ourselves, have they relied completely on the Holy Spirit to lead them into truth or not?
The simple requirements of scripture in many cases has been cast aside on the altar of the wisdom(and ultimately ego) of man, the Holy Spirit would not lead anyone to do that.
A scolar, or theolgian, and those who avidly follow them, will always demand more of you doctrinally than does the Bible, that is a sad, but true fact.
God wants the heart, not the head. Your head can teach you nothing of the spiritual, only the Holy Spirit can do that, and He WILL NOT lay greater doctrinal demands of belief on you than did Christ or the Apostles. Scripture must be the final authority for man, not the little grey cells.
The Apostle Paul was a hugely intelligent man by academic/worldly statndards, but he put that aside, for what he knew was far better knowledge.
And he said the following:

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,[SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.[SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[h=4]Also

When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. [SUP]4 [/SUP]My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.[/h]And also
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”

Truth is, God is not concerned in the slightest if you believe in OSAS or not. Nor is he bothered if you believe in the pre trib rapture or not, or even if we will have physical bodies or not in Heaven

Man makes mountains out of molehills, and often misses what is most important on the way.

Beware of the wise man, beware of the scholar, beware of.....................................

Elin · Feb 11, 2013

Tintin said:

Thanks, Tintin!

Elin · Feb 11, 2013

mark54 said:

Elin said:

Paul plainly teaches that we will have glorified physical bodies in heaven.
He does not specify their anatomical composition, but he is clear that they are physical.

In 1Co 15;20-54, Paul is contrasting the body we receive at birth from the "natural" (made of dust, sinful) Adam, to the body we receive at the resurrection from the "spiritual" (God's Son) second Adam, Jesus Christ.
As we received a natural (sinful) physical body from the natual man Adam, so we will recveive a spiritual (sinless) physical body from the spiritual second Adam, Jesus Christ.

In the context of this analogy, "flesh and blood" does not refer to the antomical composition of human bodies, but to the natural fallen sinful body which cannot inherit (Gr: klernonmeo) the kingdom of God because it is sinful.

The context is about the inheritance of the redeemed at the resurrection. It's not about the anatomical composition of bodies in heaven.

[Note that in Paul's usage, "spirit" and "spiritual" do not refer to, nor do they mean the same thing.
"spirit" refers to the nature of the being, immaterial as distinct from physical.
"Spiritual" refers to the domain of the Holy Spirit.
Satan is a spirit (immaterial), but he is not "spiritual" in the Biblical sense of the word.
The man Jesus was "spiritual," but he was not a spirit (immaterial), as is Satan.]

In the context of 1Co 15:20-54, "flesh and blood" does not refer to the anatomical composition of the resurrected body and, therefore, composition of the the resurrected body is not addressed in Scripture, meaning I cannot say either way when Scripture does not.

If "flesh and blood" means the natural sinful body, my answer is: there will be no natural sinful bodies in heaven.

If "flesh and blood" means "physical" as opposed to "spirit," my answer is: there will be physical bodies in heaven.

This is a very clear answer, and it really is easy to understand why in a dispute it is based on conditions.

No it is not easy to understand,

You are confusing "understand" with "like."

You simply don't like the answer, basesd in sound exegesis of its context of 1Co 15:20-54, and which, BTW, in lieu of addressing, you just simply deny.

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

Elin said:

Give me plain scripture that states Christ dwells now in a body of flesh and blood in Heaven
If you cannot, it is simply your natural reasoning contradicting the plain words of scripture
I can give you very plain scripture as to my beliefs, as you are aware

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

Elin said:

What you mean is, your natural reasoninig that contradicts the plain words of scripture

Elin · Feb 11, 2013

wordhelpsme said:

You might want to rethink that.

Jesus claimed:

He came from heaven (Jn 3:13, 6:38, 42, 62),
and was sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28),
to die as a ransom for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28; Jn 10:11),
with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
to conquer Satan (Jn 12:31; Lk 10:18; Mk 1:23-26, 5:6-13),
to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28), 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10; Lk 9:35, 10:16),
and to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33),
as the source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 5:25-26, 6:39-40),
and the exclusive way to God (Jn 14:6; Ac 4:12),
the decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3:18-19, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25),
possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22; Jn 13:3, 13),
equal with God (Jn 5:18, 8:19, 12:44-45, 14:7-9, 16:15, 17:10); i.e., doing what God does (Jn 5:19)
--as the Father works, so the Son works (miracles ) - (Jn 5:17)
--as the Father gives life, so the Son gives life (Jn 5:21)
--as the Father is Judge, so the Son is Judge (Jn 5:22)
--as the Father is to be honored, so the Son is to be honored (Jn 5:23)
--as the Father has life in himself, so the Son has life in himself (Jn 5:26)
--as the Father sends with authority and power, so the Son sends (Jn 20:21)
--as the Father confers the kingdom, so the Son confers the kingdom (Lk 22:29)
--as the Father is Lawgiver, so the Son is Lawgiver (Mt 5:23-47, 12:7-8, 19:9, 21:23-27, chp 23)
empowering the apostles to speak for him, as well as for God (Lk 10:16; Jn 13:20),
and to recall and understand all things correctly (Jn 14:26, 16:13-15, Lk 24:48-49).

Jesus said he was speaking exactly what the Father told him to say when he made these claims about himself (Jn 12:49).

In these claims, Jesus is saying that he is no less than God.
The Jews certainly understood that's what he meant
(Mk 2:3-7; Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59, 19:7),
which is why they killed him (Ac 7:52).

To keep from being killed by them before his time by providing them with irrefutable evidence
(Jn 5:18, 7:1, 19, 11:53; Mt 12:14, 26:4).

The Jews thought he said it (Mk 2:3-7; Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59, 19:7).

Can God's offspring be anything other than God?

We do, but it's not the only teaching.

crossnote · Feb 11, 2013

mark54 said:

Do you believe Christ walked thru the tomb in his resurrected body as well as passed into the locked room where the disciples were hiding? Is he no longer carrying his humanity?

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

crossnote said:

It seems that you, as well as Elin cannot answer a very simple question

Does Christ dwell now in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood?
If you do not know the answer/have no opinion either way, how can you discuss this subject?

Also, as with Ellen my post to her has been totally ignored.

Elin · Feb 11, 2013

mark54 said:

Give me a plain Scripture that states Jesus is God.

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

Elin said:

Once again, all you can do is divert from the question often asked.

If you have no opinion as to whether Christ dwells now in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood, how can you believe you can do sound exegesis of this sbject?

I note you have completely ignored my post to you i spent time writing out earlier

I repeat, all you are giving me is personal opinions, that you say are sound exegesis. You can give me no scripture to back up your beliefs, whereas I am giving you very plain scripture to show what I believe
If you can give me plain scripture that states Christ dwells now in Heaven in a body of flesh and blood, i will take your comments seriously, unil then I am afraid I cannot

Elin · Feb 11, 2013

mark54 said:

Like you are doing now?

It likewise is a simple question.
Why do you not answer it?

Your non-answer is the answer, just as is mine.

Therein is your problem.

You think exegesis is based on opinion.

The Trinity

Banned

Banned

Tintin

Guest

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

wordhelpsme

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned