The Trinity

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

I believe in the following verses too

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,[SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d[/SUP][SUP]]
[/SUP]When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. [SUP]3 [/SUP]I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. [SUP]4 [/SUP]My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,[SUP]5 [/SUP]so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.

Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”[SUP][b[/SUP]

hopesprings · Feb 14, 2013

mark54 said:

Perhaps I am confused by your question, but at least I am attempting to answer it. I will try to break it down as best I can. No, I would not 'utterly condemn any minister', for any reason. Why? Because it is not my place to condemn anyone, it is my place to love, and speak the truth in love. BUT - I would be overly cautious of a preacher who did not preach the entire truth of God's word.

I believe that eternal life 'hinges on' believing in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. The real Jesus Christ, not a narrowed view of Him. For one to actually read the bible and then say that Jesus Christ is not God, Himself, shows a voluntarily narrowed view of the Savior. In regard to a minister plainly telling this to his flock - the minister is obligated to speak the truth, not a narrowed view of the truth. They are obligated to tell their flock what the bible says about Jesus (which is really what Jesus says about Himself). You cannot know God unless you know Jesus, and you cannot know Jesus if you don't even believe He is who He said He is.

Please inform me if I have still failed to answer your question sufficiently.

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

hopesprings said:

If it is any consolation, no one ever has plainly answered it. It is impossible for someone with your views to answer, unless you are prepared to condemn the vast majority(in the UK just about all) of Trinitarian ministers. As you undertsand the question, I must leave it at that.
Although you have not answered it, I will respnd to one of your questions. I won't give you personal opinion, just scripture
You said it is impossible for Jesus to be the son of God but not God Himself

Does Jesus agree with you?

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten SON, that whosoever believeth on Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life
John 3:16)

Now this is eternal life(note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3)

I don't think Jesus agrees with you.

Now as I have answered one of your questions, I have one for you, as you won't plainly answer the other one.

Neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James, or John plainly stated a person must believe Jesus is God himself unto salvation.
So lets just take the Apostles
Why did they not in their letters plainly state a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation?
We are after all talking of what to you eternal life hinges on believing, doctrine of the greatest importance

There can only be one of two reasons
Either those Apostles did not have the spiritual insight you and others do today, or, they woefully failed their readers, and therefore their Christian duty by not making very plain a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation

Which of the above do you believe is true?

Also please give me one plain verse of scritpure from anywhere in the Bible that plainly states a must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation

I can give you very plain scripture that shows what I believe is neccessary belief as to who Christ is unto salvation

I will leave it at that, as you have not answered my previous question, and you are aware you have not answered it
Your belief is built on the mind and theolgy of man, mine is based on the plain word.

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

I would not 'utterly condemn any minister', for any reason. Why? Because it is not my place to condemn anyone, it is my place to love, and speak the truth in love. BUT - I would be overly cautious of a preacher who did not preach the entire truth of God's word. (Hopespring)

Well to be utterly fair to you I have quoted the above. now you believe a person must accept Christ is God HImself unto salvation, however, you will not condemn a minister who refuses to preach palinly from the pulpit to the flock what you believe is the core of the faith and one on which eternal life hinges, in respect of what is and what is not acceptable belief as to who Christ is unto salvation
Frankly to me that is apallimg.
According to your belief what happens if a person joins a church and it is not plainly preached and the person dies only believing Jesus is the Son of God?

Then you write
In regard to a minister plainly telling this to his flock - the minister is obligated to speak the truth, not a narrowed view of the truth. They are obligated to tell their flock what the bible says about Jesus (which is really what Jesus says about Himself). You cannot know God unless you know Jesus, and you cannot know Jesus if you don't even believe He is who He said He is.

The above makes no sense. But as I said you are in an impossible position, best not to attempt to answer the question.

bahamas · Feb 14, 2013

there is a right way and a wrong way,telling a person the truth for there benefit is not condeming.how els will they know the true.say it like this except you acepts the true you r in danger of hell.a true preacher will let a man know the true.and its ok to say hey the trinitarians r wrong.how els will they come to the true thoes that is to be saved

Donkeyfish07 · Feb 14, 2013

bahamas said:

Yes, you can genuinely love someone even if you disagree. It's your duty if you know better to expose a false teaching though. It doesn't matter if the other person accepts it or not, as long as you did your part to inform the other person of the error.

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

bahamas said:

Do I assume you are not an Equal Trinitarian?
I will assume that from what you have written, please correct me if I have misunderstood anything you have written

I accept them as saved, so if I am understanding you correctly, I don't believe they qare in danger of the fires of hell. I also know none of them will change their minds as to their beliefs. They could never countenance that. People feel a safety, security in their beliefs, they would be frightened to change any of them. So I am threatening no one with hellfire

I know there are a lot of Trinitarians(the vast majority who go to church, at least 90%) who simply accept if you believe Christ is the son of God you are saved, its the others, they are the problem. I am simply defending a persons right to believe who the must believe Christ to be according to Christ himself unto salvation

I am not a preacher/minister BTW, just an ordinary chap

zone · Feb 14, 2013

Mark:
if you say Jesus is not God,
what about people who believe He is.
would this not be Idolatry according to your belief?

does anyone in scripture Worship Jesus?
would that not be Idolatry?

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

zone said:

You know you are far more read than I am Zone, so I am suprised you have still not answered the question I asked of you and others. How about answering that before asking me questions.
BTW
Your questioin is easy to answer, but there is a principal involved here

bahamas · Feb 14, 2013

there or many scripture that states the jesus is God him self,one here for you john.1:1-5,14.also isa.9:6-7.and many others.

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

bahamas said:

Are you a Trinitarian or oneness Pentecostal?

bahamas · Feb 14, 2013

zone said:

very good questions zone.let them answer that

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

bahamas said:

AS SOON as Zone answers my question I asked her hours ago I will answer it

bahamas · Feb 14, 2013

i am nither,but jesus is God i follow the aposles doctrine according to acts 2:38.he was is and will remain God

Donkeyfish07 · Feb 14, 2013

zone said:

Hey Zone, I know that question was addressed to Mark but I feel the need to answer those questions. It's not something you could call idolatry. There are examples in scripture of people worshipping Jesus

John Chapter 9

"
[SUP]35[/SUP] Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
[SUP]36[/SUP] He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
[SUP]37[/SUP] And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
[SUP]38[/SUP] And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

It's not idolatry to worship who God has sanctified and sent into the world. However, it is important not to assume there is no distinction between the Son and the Father. Jesus didn't come to glorify himself, he came to glorify God.....and God glorified him.

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

bahamas said:

Well it is very late here in the UK and forgive me, but I cannot start another discussion on this subject with someone else now
But I believe there are oneness pentecostals who are saved, Equal Trinitarians who are saved, and even people who think like me who are saved

Can you believe it, even people who stand on the plain words of christ unto salvation can be saved!

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

Donkeyfish07 said:

Hey Zone, I know that question was addressed to Mark but I feel the need to answer those questions. It's not something you could call idolatry. There are examples in scripture of people worshipping Jesus

John Chapter 9

"
[SUP]35[/SUP] Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
[SUP]36[/SUP] He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
[SUP]37[/SUP] And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
[SUP]38[/SUP] And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

It's not idolatry to worship who God has sanctified and sent into the world. However, it is important not to assume there is no distinction between the Son and the Father. Jesus didn't come to glorify himself, he came to glorify God.....and God glorified him.

Actually we discussed this question(or something very similar to it) earlier didn't we if I recall correctly, and broadly had the same belief concernintg it, is that right? its late here, finding it hard to focus well

Donkeyfish07 · Feb 14, 2013

mark54 said:

Me and you are somewhat in agreement I believe. When I see someone who is a Trinitarian asking a question though and nobody has answered it....I feel it's my duty to answer. They will just assume there is no counter point if no one responds to the question. That's the only reason I'm still active in this thread. I don't enjoy talking about the topic because usually even if you can prove it with scripture....people just go on believing what they want to believe

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

Someone said that we worship the divinity of the Father in the Son, I quite liked that myself, but there are a variety of ways I guess you could approach it. I would say we worship the Father as the one true God, and Christ as our Lord and Saviour. But, we could not worship Christ as our Lord and Saviour, UNLESS he was possessed of the Father.
Don't know if that makes sense!
Hope it does.

The above was my reply earlier

mark54 · Feb 14, 2013

Donkeyfish07 said:

I agree with you, but I like to swap questions, otherwise you end up just answering others, that is not fair debate

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