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I am guessing you mean Jesus on this easrth. I am afraid I do not understand many of the theological terms used.
Well, he was the Son of God, but could not begin his ministry UNTIL the Holy Spirit descended on him in BODILY SHAPE/FORM
This is where many equal Trinitarians disagree. Some believe the Spirit did not actually descend on Christ as He was already fully God and fully man
However we know,
Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit Luke 4:1
He lived in the power of the Holy Spirit Luke4:14
He spoke the words of God because the Spirit was on him without limit John3:34
And the miracles were performed in the power of the Spirit Matt12:31
Well, he was the Son of God, but could not begin his ministry UNTIL the Holy Spirit descended on him in BODILY SHAPE/FORM
This is where many equal Trinitarians disagree. Some believe the Spirit did not actually descend on Christ as He was already fully God and fully man
However we know,
Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit Luke 4:1
He lived in the power of the Holy Spirit Luke4:14
He spoke the words of God because the Spirit was on him without limit John3:34
And the miracles were performed in the power of the Spirit Matt12:31
J
Jhn 1:12 KJV - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Phl 2:14 KJV - Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Phl 2:15 KJV - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Phl 2:16 KJV - Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
This, my friend, is my labor. I have no shame in any statement that is made here. I hold all of it as truth. I do not feel as though I came to this sight by mistake. I was directed here. I have hit many obstacles here and always left learning more from Him.
Phl 2:14 KJV - Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Phl 2:15 KJV - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Phl 2:16 KJV - Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
This, my friend, is my labor. I have no shame in any statement that is made here. I hold all of it as truth. I do not feel as though I came to this sight by mistake. I was directed here. I have hit many obstacles here and always left learning more from Him.
H
The only scripture you produced for me (that I can recall) was John 17:3 and John 3:16. Interestingly enough, neither of those verses demonstrate what you try to say that they do. My comment to you on John 17:3 was not to spark a 'theological debate', but to show you that that verse did not have to supply the conclusion that you implied.
You don't have to bother replying to the verse from 2 Peter; I am sure I already know what your argument will be. Funny how you, if given the time, would have a 'theological debate' regarding a plain verse that seems to imply something other then what you believe. Hmmm...
Well did you not see the post where i put those verses back up from 2 Peter. What is there to say about them?
As for John 17:3 &John 3:16
Well as you won't accept that as plainly written discussion becomes pointless, I know how these debates work with many.
The plain scripture you place before them you are told is out of context, and a completely different meaning is given to the text than it plainly states. However, when the person then produces scripture themselves you have to take it plainly as wirtten
Tell you what, just give me one plain verse of scripture from anywhere in the Bible that states Christ is the one true God Himself
Or
That a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation.
Thanks
As for John 17:3 &John 3:16
Well as you won't accept that as plainly written discussion becomes pointless, I know how these debates work with many.
The plain scripture you place before them you are told is out of context, and a completely different meaning is given to the text than it plainly states. However, when the person then produces scripture themselves you have to take it plainly as wirtten
Tell you what, just give me one plain verse of scripture from anywhere in the Bible that states Christ is the one true God Himself
Or
That a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation.
Thanks
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Oh I didn't know we were answering your question to earn points! Why didn't you say that in the first place?
(I have kept to my stance...btw...you can go back and re-read my posts if you disagree)
(I have kept to my stance...btw...you can go back and re-read my posts if you disagree)
I am sure you will be fine on websites like these, you have the qualities needed to flourish on them
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Hi JL
Thanks for responding. I wondered for a minute if you had a different understanding as to who the sons of God are, but I know now you haven't. BTW, if we always took literaly what the plain words state without allowing for the love, mercy and compassion of God, I don't believe anyone would make it to Heaven, I know I would not anyway
It always interests me to read peoples opinions on this subject. Can you confirm I have understood your position form what I have read of your posts
You believe the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, and the Spirit dwells in the body of Christ, but you accept the Father is supreme.
Can I ask, do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?
Or, the Spirit of God's prescence?
Or is there another term you would use?
It is plain(to me) from John ch17 that the Holy Spirit does reside in the body in Christ. Interestingly I have read posts now of four people I believe who go straight to John 17 to explain(as far as we can understand) the oneness of Father and son.
That is an encouragement to me to know I am not alone in that.
I see the Holy Spirit as key in this
Most equal Trinitarians I have spoken to will not accept the Holy Spirit actually descended on Christ in bodily form at his Baptism, as they say he was already fully God and fully man
And when you ask them how Christ spoke the word of God, they normally reply because he was God, they don't on the whole reply
'Because the Spirit was on him without measure John3:34
Thanks for responding. I wondered for a minute if you had a different understanding as to who the sons of God are, but I know now you haven't. BTW, if we always took literaly what the plain words state without allowing for the love, mercy and compassion of God, I don't believe anyone would make it to Heaven, I know I would not anyway
It always interests me to read peoples opinions on this subject. Can you confirm I have understood your position form what I have read of your posts
You believe the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, and the Spirit dwells in the body of Christ, but you accept the Father is supreme.
Can I ask, do you believe the Holy Spirit is God?
Or, the Spirit of God's prescence?
Or is there another term you would use?
It is plain(to me) from John ch17 that the Holy Spirit does reside in the body in Christ. Interestingly I have read posts now of four people I believe who go straight to John 17 to explain(as far as we can understand) the oneness of Father and son.
That is an encouragement to me to know I am not alone in that.
I see the Holy Spirit as key in this
Most equal Trinitarians I have spoken to will not accept the Holy Spirit actually descended on Christ in bodily form at his Baptism, as they say he was already fully God and fully man
And when you ask them how Christ spoke the word of God, they normally reply because he was God, they don't on the whole reply
'Because the Spirit was on him without measure John3:34
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Hi Elin
As we started this discussion, I believe I’d just like tomake a few points to you.
As you kept stating to me. There is no plain scripture thatstates Jesus is God Himself in the Bible. Therefore we know there is and can beno biblical demand to believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation. Neither,Christ, Peter, James, John or Paul demanded such a belief for a person to be aChristian.
Do the ministers in the Trinitarian churches demand such abelief? Well I can only speak for the ministers in Britain, but judging from thedeafening silence to my oft repeated question I’m guessing on the whole theministers in the US are pretty much like the ministers in the UK. (but therewill probably be a few exceptions.)
I’ve never heard a minister demand a person believe Christis God Himself unto salvation and state it is not enough simply to believe heis the Son of God. Of course if they did state that they would then have totell you if you simply believed Christ was the son of God and not God himselfyou will go to hell wouldn’t they, for you have to tell people the consequencesof getting salvational belief wrong.
So that’s the ministers taken care of. What about theordinary churchgoer, how do they feel about this? Well I can assure you that atleast 90% of churchgoers(and that is a very conservative estimate, probablymuch more than that) will simply accept a person as a Christian, if they do nomore than believe Christ is the son of God, that’s it. They would never thinkof demanding anything more.
So where do these extra biblical demands come from? THEINTERNET!
But lets go a little further. I was on another Christianwebsite. My guess is, that no more than SIX Trinitarians on it would tell you,you had to believe Christ was God Himself unto salvation, that was it, I callthem the lunatic fringe.
How many people are members of cc Elin? And how many haveACTUALLY come into this thread and stated it is not enough simply to believeChrist is the son of God unto salvation, you must believe he is God Himself? Myguess is so far no more than SIX again, the lunatic fringe!(though this post mayinspire more to do so, lets see)
Now you people who are sooooo passionate to promote yourextra biblical demands that no one else much seems to promote have been asked aquestion by me. Will you utterly condemn any minister who refuses to plainlystate from the pulpit what is to you acceptable and unacceptable belief as towho Christ is and the consequences of getting it wrong. In other words, willyou utterly condemn as unfit to preach any minister who refuses to plainlystate from the pulpit, if you believe Jesus is the son of God, but not Godhimself you cannot be saved with such a belief and will go to hell with it. Howmany of you have replied to that Elin?
ONE, and to be honest, she had to use great skill to dodgeplainly answering the question. To the rest of yours credit you didn’t even tryto explain it away. So I have to ask myself, why will you people not stand by yourconvictions on this website? Do you think it is acceptable for ministers not topreach from the pulpit what is required salvational belief and the consequencesof getting it wrong, don’t you care? How can you remain silent, eternal life isat stake here for many.
Two points here that are linked
1) If you were convicted in yourhearts by the Holy Spirit of this belief, you would have no choice but tocondemn the ministers as unfit to preach for we all know it is incumbent onthem all to preach the truth from the pulpit, especially a salvational belief,but you say nothing at all do you. Do you go up to your ministers and demandthey plainly preach it? Nope, I doubt you do. Which sadly must mean yourconviction ends when you leave this website
2) But ultimately your own EqualTrinitarian belief condemns you. For you will not accept the requirement ofbelief unto salvation that Christ himself stipulated was the required beliefunto salvation, you add to it. So to you Christ got it wrong. Now if you areled of the Holy Spirit to contradict the requirement of belief unto salvation laiddown by Christ himself in relation to who he must be believed to be thenobviously the Spirit of God is contradicting the word of God. In Trinitarianterms this means God is contradicting God and the belief collapses. Maybe theministers are smart enough to see that. And maybe they understand the spiritualreality, something many cannot do
I call them head theologists
As we started this discussion, I believe I’d just like tomake a few points to you.
As you kept stating to me. There is no plain scripture thatstates Jesus is God Himself in the Bible. Therefore we know there is and can beno biblical demand to believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation. Neither,Christ, Peter, James, John or Paul demanded such a belief for a person to be aChristian.
Do the ministers in the Trinitarian churches demand such abelief? Well I can only speak for the ministers in Britain, but judging from thedeafening silence to my oft repeated question I’m guessing on the whole theministers in the US are pretty much like the ministers in the UK. (but therewill probably be a few exceptions.)
I’ve never heard a minister demand a person believe Christis God Himself unto salvation and state it is not enough simply to believe heis the Son of God. Of course if they did state that they would then have totell you if you simply believed Christ was the son of God and not God himselfyou will go to hell wouldn’t they, for you have to tell people the consequencesof getting salvational belief wrong.
So that’s the ministers taken care of. What about theordinary churchgoer, how do they feel about this? Well I can assure you that atleast 90% of churchgoers(and that is a very conservative estimate, probablymuch more than that) will simply accept a person as a Christian, if they do nomore than believe Christ is the son of God, that’s it. They would never thinkof demanding anything more.
So where do these extra biblical demands come from? THEINTERNET!
But lets go a little further. I was on another Christianwebsite. My guess is, that no more than SIX Trinitarians on it would tell you,you had to believe Christ was God Himself unto salvation, that was it, I callthem the lunatic fringe.
How many people are members of cc Elin? And how many haveACTUALLY come into this thread and stated it is not enough simply to believeChrist is the son of God unto salvation, you must believe he is God Himself? Myguess is so far no more than SIX again, the lunatic fringe!(though this post mayinspire more to do so, lets see)
Now you people who are sooooo passionate to promote yourextra biblical demands that no one else much seems to promote have been asked aquestion by me. Will you utterly condemn any minister who refuses to plainlystate from the pulpit what is to you acceptable and unacceptable belief as towho Christ is and the consequences of getting it wrong. In other words, willyou utterly condemn as unfit to preach any minister who refuses to plainlystate from the pulpit, if you believe Jesus is the son of God, but not Godhimself you cannot be saved with such a belief and will go to hell with it. Howmany of you have replied to that Elin?
ONE, and to be honest, she had to use great skill to dodgeplainly answering the question. To the rest of yours credit you didn’t even tryto explain it away. So I have to ask myself, why will you people not stand by yourconvictions on this website? Do you think it is acceptable for ministers not topreach from the pulpit what is required salvational belief and the consequencesof getting it wrong, don’t you care? How can you remain silent, eternal life isat stake here for many.
Two points here that are linked
1) If you were convicted in yourhearts by the Holy Spirit of this belief, you would have no choice but tocondemn the ministers as unfit to preach for we all know it is incumbent onthem all to preach the truth from the pulpit, especially a salvational belief,but you say nothing at all do you. Do you go up to your ministers and demandthey plainly preach it? Nope, I doubt you do. Which sadly must mean yourconviction ends when you leave this website
2) But ultimately your own EqualTrinitarian belief condemns you. For you will not accept the requirement ofbelief unto salvation that Christ himself stipulated was the required beliefunto salvation, you add to it. So to you Christ got it wrong. Now if you areled of the Holy Spirit to contradict the requirement of belief unto salvation laiddown by Christ himself in relation to who he must be believed to be thenobviously the Spirit of God is contradicting the word of God. In Trinitarianterms this means God is contradicting God and the belief collapses. Maybe theministers are smart enough to see that. And maybe they understand the spiritualreality, something many cannot do
I call them head theologists