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I don't think this is so unusual, scary though! and so very sad. Last week I met a gentleman who was a minister for 60 years...but only born again when he was retired. Better late than never! He believed in God, lived a 'Godly' life but by his own admission his life was not filled with the power of the spirit and he was constantly battling with the peaks & troughs of life. His life now is transformed and he positively 'dances' with his close relationship with God, through Jesus Christ. It was a wonderful thing to see <><
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Rev.3
[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev.5
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Seems like some party.....so there are SEVEN Spirits of God? So there is God the Father, God the Son and the SEVEN Holy Ghost/Spirits of God? Does not sound like a "Trinity"!
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[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev.5
[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Seems like some party.....so there are SEVEN Spirits of God? So there is God the Father, God the Son and the SEVEN Holy Ghost/Spirits of God? Does not sound like a "Trinity"!
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I am not quite through but I have gone through to Romans. . .
We were looking at John 4:23,24 which you said was a Trinitarian text and posted #546 above. I did get to thinking though - just because a scripture mentions the word "truth" and Jesus may be the subject - how does that prove a mandate to worship God as Father, Son, and Spirit. From my study so far, Jesus may be the subject but it is in regard to him speaking truthfully - which I wouldn't expect anything different! Anyway, a closer look at John 4:23,24, which we were looking at:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. SUBJECT: worshipers (adj. true) VERB: shall worship DIRECT OBJECT: Father
TWO PREPOSITIONAL PHRASES (modifying the verb showing how God must be worshiped) #1 in spirit , #2 in truth.
God is Spirit: SUBJECT: God VERB: is DIRECT OBJECT: Spirit
and they that worship him (referring to the true worshiper) VERB: must worship in spirit and in truth. Explained above.
I see reference to God the Father, and God being Spirit (Holy Spirit) and how we are to worship him. So you see God the Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son - so are you seeing the Son in the word "truth"? I'm not being facetious - just wondering?
A
Here is part of a commentary on this subject (John 8;24).
John 8:24 If you DO NOT ...believe. Jesus emphasized that the fatal, unforgiveable, and eternal sin is failure to believe in Him as Messiah and Son of God. In truth, all other sins can be forgiven if this one is repented of.
I am He... "He" is not part of the original statement. Jesus' words were not constructed normally but were influenced by OT Hebrew usage. It is an absolute usage meaning "I AM" and has immense theological significance. The reference may be to both Ex. 3:14 where where the Lord declared His mane as "I AM" and to Isaiah 40-55 where the phrase "I am" occurs repeatably (especially 43:10,13, 25; 46:4; 48;12). In this, Jesus referred to Himself as the God (Yahweh-the LORD) of the OT, and directly claimed full deity for Himself, prompting the Jew's question of John 8:25.[/QUOTE]
Do you remember in the garden when they came to arrest Jesus? Jesus asked them, "Who are you looking for?" (asked twice) They responded, "Jesus of Nazareth." Answered twice). Jesus answered both times, "I am He." Both times they fell down as if struck. Why? In the original writings the word "He" was not there. It was added later by scribes for clarification purposes. In essence, Jesus said, "I AM ). Just like in Ex.3:14 when Moses asked God who he (Moses) should say has sent him and what His (God) name is.
A
I guess for the same reason I sat in church for 30 years, read the Bible, and even believe it was His word. I was the problem. He was there all along. I was the one who would not listen. But, you know? In all those 30+ years He had been working and had not given up on me. I don't think He gives up on anyone.
I am a holy spirit by measure, dwelling in a living vessel (holy soul), which motivates my earthen vessel (holy flesh). I am a spirit of God, but by measure, just as all who are born again are. I am also a living vessel (soul) just as all who are born again are. I also am an earthen vessel made holy (my soul has been motivated by the flesh before, and because of that my spirit has not always been holy, nor my soul, nor my flesh). Just because there are seven spirits of God, that doesn't mean that there aren't countless specific measures of the Holy Spirit (spirits of God). Just because there are countless spirits of God, doesn't mean that God is not one. It is possible for 2+2 to equal 1. It is possible for 3 to be one. It is possible for a million times a million to be 1. To God be all the glory, cause we can't take credit for any good, as we are unprofitable and yet so very valuable to God. God is 1, and I value every specific measure of God. The basic elements for motivated free will are spirit, soul, and earthen vessel. The flesh is an earthen vessel of the soul, and the soul is a vessel that holds the spirit. The flesh can hold the spirit only if the soul holds a spirit (which it does). If the flesh holds no soul, the flesh holds no spirit. The soul cannot be empty as the flesh can be. God is surely 3 in 1, and a million in 1, all at the same time.
you asked for a verse that plainly says you must believe Jesus is God to be saved.
Are you trying to test my patience..?
Are you trying to test my patience..?
This is a wind up, it must be!
I am Mark 54 and I hope you believe that
Who did Jesus claim to be?
charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[SUP][e][/SUP] the Son of God.” [SUP]64 [/SUP]“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied
yOU know, I quote you the plain words of Christ confirming only the Father is the one true God, you refuse to accept it, doing your theological study with it, then you produce John 8:24 where Christ is supposed to contradict himself and say he is God Himself-which he does not
Please do not give me anymore scripture, enough already
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This is what that word said Cfultz
Now this is eternal life that they may know you(the Father) the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John 17:3
The Father is greater than all
John 10:29
The Father is greater than I
John 14:28
I don't want reasoning Cfultz, or endless debate with the goal being to contradict the plain words of Christ
I have given you plain scripture of the words of Christ
Please give me plain scripture Where it is stated Christ is the one true God Himself
I have given you very plain scripture to state only the father is
I want the plain scripture as I have given you
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was
clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Perhaps when talking about Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever, we should clarify which part of God we are talking about. The Word of God has no beginning. Jesus Christ has no beginning.
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Jesus is God, and God died (His earthen vessel was tortured and temporarily was allowed to be disabled) for us, so that the life in the blood of God could be given to us, which is The Holy Spirit without measure in the holy soul/life of God. This is part of the revelation of Jesus Christ:
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: God is the first and the last.
I know no one is interested, but this is the truth
All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me
Matt:28:18
Paul echos Christ's words
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For he(the Father) “has put everything under his feet.”[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cor15:24-28
So Christ is OVER ALL right now, apart from the Father, who put everything under his feet. Paul confirms this again:
[SUP] [/SUP]Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.(or to pujt it another way. Blessed of God forever
Rom 9:5
All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to me
Matt:28:18
Paul echos Christ's words
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For he(the Father) “has put everything under his feet.”[SUP][c][/SUP] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cor15:24-28
So Christ is OVER ALL right now, apart from the Father, who put everything under his feet. Paul confirms this again:
[SUP] [/SUP]Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.(or to pujt it another way. Blessed of God forever
Rom 9:5
Well the Alpha and Omega was explained by Peacefulbeliever
But I am only here to debate one thing. If you believe a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation, please proiduce the scripture that says that
Thanks
BTW
As I can give you plain and clear scriptrure thast states only the Father is the one true God, likewise I expect the same from you, plain and clear scripture that states Christ is the one true God, nothing else will do
But I am only here to debate one thing. If you believe a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation, please proiduce the scripture that says that
Thanks
BTW
As I can give you plain and clear scriptrure thast states only the Father is the one true God, likewise I expect the same from you, plain and clear scripture that states Christ is the one true God, nothing else will do
E
When Christ was here on earth, born of Mary, He was a flesh and blood man. God the Father was a spirit being. So during the time that Jesus was on the earth the Father WAS greater than Jesus. But let's read how Jesus was BEFORE becoming a flesh and blood man;
Phil.2
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Before Jesus was born of Mary He was equal with the Father; both spirit beings...both Gods!
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Phil.2
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Before Jesus was born of Mary He was equal with the Father; both spirit beings...both Gods!
.
A
Here is something I posted earlier this afternoon. It's pretty interesting.
Here is part of a commentary on this subject (John 8;24).
John 8:24 If you DO NOT ...believe. Jesus emphasized that the fatal, unforgiveable, and eternal sin is failure to believe in Him as Messiah and Son of God. In truth, all other sins can be forgiven if this one is repented of.
I am He... "He" is not part of the original statement. Jesus' words were not constructed normally but were influenced by OT Hebrew usage. It is an absolute usage meaning "I AM" and has immense theological significance. The reference may be to both Ex. 3:14 where where the Lord declared His mane as "I AM" and to Isaiah 40-55 where the phrase "I am" occurs repeatably (especially 43:10,13, 25; 46:4; 48;12). In this, Jesus referred to Himself as the God (Yahweh-the LORD) of the OT, and directly claimed full deity for Himself, prompting the Jew's question of John 8:25.[/QUOTE]
Here is part of a commentary on this subject (John 8;24).
John 8:24 If you DO NOT ...believe. Jesus emphasized that the fatal, unforgiveable, and eternal sin is failure to believe in Him as Messiah and Son of God. In truth, all other sins can be forgiven if this one is repented of.
I am He... "He" is not part of the original statement. Jesus' words were not constructed normally but were influenced by OT Hebrew usage. It is an absolute usage meaning "I AM" and has immense theological significance. The reference may be to both Ex. 3:14 where where the Lord declared His mane as "I AM" and to Isaiah 40-55 where the phrase "I am" occurs repeatably (especially 43:10,13, 25; 46:4; 48;12). In this, Jesus referred to Himself as the God (Yahweh-the LORD) of the OT, and directly claimed full deity for Himself, prompting the Jew's question of John 8:25.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub[SUP][c][/SUP]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? [SUP]24 [/SUP]If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [SUP]25 [/SUP]If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]He said this because they were saying, “He has an evil spirit.”
It is comm,only believed Jesus said the above because the Pharisees said he cast out demons by Beelzebub instead of acknowledging it was by the Spirit
I think it is impossible to believe the unforgivable sin is not believing Christ is God Himself
For if it were, that would mean a person could be condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub[SUP][c][/SUP]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” [SUP]23 [/SUP]So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? [SUP]24 [/SUP]If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [SUP]25 [/SUP]If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. [SUP]27 [/SUP]In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. [SUP]29 [/SUP]But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]He said this because they were saying, “He has an evil spirit.”
It is comm,only believed Jesus said the above because the Pharisees said he cast out demons by Beelzebub instead of acknowledging it was by the Spirit
I think it is impossible to believe the unforgivable sin is not believing Christ is God Himself
For if it were, that would mean a person could be condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
When people see me driving a vehicle, they might say "That's a truck", or they might say "There's Jonathan". They're not calling the truck Jonathan. When people see me walking towards them, they might say "That's Jonathan", but they're not talking about my living vessel (soul), they're talking about the vessel that the living vessel is dwelling in. This also explains how we can be the body of Christ (His flesh and His bones), because The Father made us a holy spirit by measure (a measure of God is what we are when we're born again) which dwells in a holy soul, which dwells in an earthen vessel. Our real name is given to describe the specific measure of God in the holy soul that God made (God is not made). We are not God, because we have a beginning, and we are made. Jesus Christ (the example of The Holy Spirit without beginning or ending in the holy soul without beginning or ending, which is in the holy earthen vessel without beginning or ending) is God.
Although I have in many debates previously on another website rsponded to what you have written, I repeat
I have given plain scriptuire that states only the father is the one true God, please give me equally plain scripture that says that is not the case. No other scripture interests me. Theological conclusions are not as reliable as the plain words of Christ
I have given plain scriptuire that states only the father is the one true God, please give me equally plain scripture that says that is not the case. No other scripture interests me. Theological conclusions are not as reliable as the plain words of Christ
Jesus is the Father, and Jesus is the Son, both at the same time. Who do you suppose Joshua worshipped in this example? It was The Father in an approachable earthen vessel (the fullness of the Godhead bodily)
Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
I assume you are oneness Pentecostal, as all other Equal Trinitarians tell me they do not believe Jesus is the Father
However, i Must repeat, my only concern here is what as person must believe concerning who Christ is to inherit eternal life, so I will not respond to anything else but that subject directly
However, i Must repeat, my only concern here is what as person must believe concerning who Christ is to inherit eternal life, so I will not respond to anything else but that subject directly
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