Imputed Righteousness of Christ

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#21
Why present a strawman position of what I write?

What strawman? According to you Christ died for nothing.. I was just stating a fact.


If you were an honest person you wouldn't make statements like that.
If you were an honest man with open eyes, you would see what you say about Christ death, and then understand what I made the comment i did.

I have never claimed Jesus died for nothing and you can roll your eyes and scoff all you like.
You do ever time you say he did not make payment for our sin. If he did not pay for our sin, he died for nothing.


Jesus died on our behalf so that we could be reconciled to God through His blood. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. If Jesus did not die and if Jesus did not rise from the dead then my faith would be in vain.
You just claimed he died to make remission of sin. Which is the same as saying he payed for our sin, (this is called redemption)

Jesus also died so that we could die with Him. We are to be partakers in his sufferings by which we become partakers of the life that is in Him. The Spirit of life in Jesus Christ is something that is all encompassing of our entire being.
You keep adding the word MUST.. This is error. those who are saved by him WILL die with him. (they have no choice, God will work this in them, as a father makes a child walk in his ways) there is no must about it.. When you add the word must you are making a requirement for salvation of your own work.. which means you are trusting self. and not trusting God.

If you are going to disagree with me you can at least cease from misrepresenting my position. Although I know it is easier to refute a fiction than specifically deal with the Bible verses I present.
lol.. you post a bunch of bible verses over and over saying they back your view. when they do not.

You have the premis down.. You just have the reality in error.. Your so close, yet so far.. And you condemn anyone who does not believe as you do. Thats why no one can talk with you.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#22
The doctrine was an INVENTION of Martin Luther.

It is constructed by selectively quote mining Scripture whilst ignoring the general theme of Scripture.

This doctrine of the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" serves as a cloak for unrighteousness.
that is not true. if you read or listen to ALL of Luther's sermons you will find he preaches on the importance of maintaining righteous behavior. did you even read the sermon i linked at the beginning? he spoke of TWO types of righteousness and how both are needed. you should at least understand how there can be two different types of righteousness, as there are two different types of sins.

Here is a quote from Martin Luther...



Yet the problem is where does the Bible say that Jesus took on the believers guilt? Where does the Bible say that a believer is "adorned" with the "innocence and purity" of Jesus? Where does the Bible state that the believer is "granted the righteousness of Jesus" ?
have you checked out the sermon or even Tribesman's answer above?

The Bible teaches no such thing. The "Blessed Exchange" is a MYTH.
just because you don't understand it doesn't make it a myth..

The Bible teaches that FAITH IS IMPUTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. "Faith being imputed as righteousness" is VERY DIFFERENT than the "obedience of Jesus being credited to your account."
what is it that you have faith in?

Here is how R C Sproul teaches this dangerous doctrine...

[video=youtube;wHqCNEh2y1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHqCNEh2y1Q[/video]

Yet the Bible says this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Are these people trying to deceive you into believing that "righteousness" HAS NOTHING to do with what YOU DO?
nope you are just making strawman and not listening to the WHOLE sermon or teaching in its entirety.

The Bible also says this...

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.



Ariel, in another post you write this...



Do any of those scriptures you referenced teach that the "Righteousness of Christ" is imputed to a believers account? I don't see it.
its obvious you don't see. perhaps you should take a few minutes to pray about it for a little bit.

It is true that the blood is absolutely necessary in purging the conscience of sin in order that believer may approach God in a new and living way seeking mercy and reconciliation. Without the blood there would be no remission of sin.

Yet to twist that into a teaching where the obedience of Jesus is reckoned to the believers account is pure fiction.
or pure foolishness?

Carefully read Romans Chapter 4 and you'll clearly see that it is FAITH which God imputes as righteousness. A faith that has an ASSOCIATED WALK (Rom 11-13). A Faith that is obedient (Heb 11:8). A faith that works by love and fulfills the righteousness of the law (Gal 5:6, Gal 5:14, Rom 8:4) whereby the law is established in the heart (Rom 3:31). In other words God LOOKS AT THE HEART and if an individual LOVES GOD and LOVES THEIR NEIGHBOUR then God reckons that as righteousness APART from the works of the law.

The entire Bible speaks of loving God and loving our neighbour. Nowhere does the Bible teach that "righteousness" or "vice" are transferrable properties. It doesn't even make sense.
yep just pure foolishness.....

This Substitution Theology has no basis in truth whatsoever. Substitution Theology has reduced the Gospel to a judicial abstraction whereby God PRETENDS that a person is righteousness when they are still filthy. It is a doctrine which throws reason out the window.
yep makes it about GRACE and not Reason. makes it about MERCY and not WORKS. makes it about God not PRETENDING but CLEANSING a person so that though their sin was red they are now washed white as snow.

Look at this passage...

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

How does that passage fit in with "righteousness" being some abstract legal transaction? It doesn't.

Righteousness is in what YOU DO FROM YOUR HEART.
and Martin Luther would agree and call that the second type of righteousness. the kind the bride offers to her bridegroom, her way of saying to Christ, "I am yours"

Look at this passage...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Does that fit in with a forensic accreditation of righteousness while one is still filthy?
you have a hard time understanding how God cleanses sinners don't you?

Paul goes on to say...

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

OUR MANIFEST CONDUCT is related to whether we enter into everlasting life or not. This forensic exchange of Penal Substitution Theology is a MYTH, it is FICTION, it is an idea concocted in the MINDS OF MEN.
wow you don't understand the concept at all do you?

Look at this scripture...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Righteousness is MANIFESTED in CONDUCT. God does not look at you and see Jesus. God looks at you and SEES YOU!
how do you become a child of God? through your own righteousness or through what Jesus did on the cross?

If you are filthy and defiled God sees you as filthy and defiled. If you are pure and holy God sees you as pure and holy. Sinners are sinners and saints are saints.

God does not want anyone to perish but all to come to repentance. God wants all people to be broken on the rock of Christ, to forsake their sin, and to yield to the leading of God. God wants us all to ABIDE IN CHRIST whereby we are YIELDED TO HIS INSTRUCTION. When we YIELD TO GOD from the heart the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts and we become conduits of the light of God. Not of ourselves, but rather, OF GOD. God wants us to be VESSELS of His Spirit.



There is not a single statement in the entire Bible which states that the literal righteousness of Jesus Christ is CREDITED to the believers account. Did Jesus teach anything close to that anywhere? Think about that for a minute. Jesus DID NOT TEACH IT. Nor did Paul, Peter, John or James. Paul's writings are "twisted" to support it.
no. they are not, but i'm confused as to see why it is not clear to you.

...pray...

i think i see what the issue is. you think that they are teaching that ALL of Jesus righteousness is given to believers account and since Jesus righteousness is SO great, that nothing bad you do can ever deplete it.

however I don't think that is what is being taught at all.

have to pick the kids up from the bus stop but I'll pray and think about it all some more but I think this is more of a misunderstanding than anything, but I did read some articles that show how Catholic and Protestant beliefs differ on this issue.

hm....
 
Feb 11, 2012
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#23
for others on the forum who would like to know what is actually taught on the subject....



grrr why won't it post???

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

There are two kinds of Christian righteousness, just as man’s sin is of two kinds. The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me.....shall never die.” Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant. Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say: “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.” Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32]. Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4]. Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”

...???
Your quoting Luther????????????? Do you consider him a sound bible teacher??? Wow, we have covered the truth about Imputation, and its a doctrine of demons, but if you adhere to the teachings of this man, then I guess your mind is made up!

Martin Luther the Heretic!

The Following are only a very brief example of Luther's outrageous remarks. Research it yourself and find hundreds more
he was also complaisant in the murder & torture of the Anabaptists in 1520's Germany



Luther teaches: “Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died. (Sited from: Trish Reden Weimar Edition Vol2, pg107)

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." (Sited from Letter #99 Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404)

"We should throw out the Epistle of James from this school (Wittenberg) for it doesn't amount to much. It contains not one syllable about Christ. Nor does it mention Christ expect at the beginning. I maintain that some Jew wrote it who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any!"
(Sited from: LW-54 424-425)

"the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical" (Sited from: 'Preface to the New Testament,' ed. Dillenberger, p. 19. - Cf. Also Jean Janssen, L’Allemagne et la Reforme. (Trans. E. Paris, Plon, 1887-1911). Vol II, Pg. 218.)

Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes." (Sited from: J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248)

"If Moses attempt to intimidate you with his stupid Ten Commandments, tell him right out chase yourself to the Jews!" (Lecture at Wittenberg)





If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner." (Luther, Letter to Melanchthon, 1521.)

Where does the Bible teach such Heresy? Jesus said "whoever Commits sin is a Slave of sin" and Paul taught "you are a Slave to whom YOU obey!" (Jn. 8:34 & Rom. 6:16) What this means is that Sinning leads to Death, Not the Kingdom of God! "Go and Sin no More" was Jesus declaration to the woman caught in Adultery in Jn. 8:11, whereas, we find the Apostle Paul in Romans 6:1-2 saying, "what shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Don't be Deceived! (1 Jn. 4:1) According to Scripture, "you Reap what you Sow". (Gal. 6:7-8) Jesus said,"whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart" and WARNED "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell." (Matt. 5:27-29). Likewise, it is Written that "whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 Jn. 3:15) Luther was WRONG and IF you follow him it will Cost you your soul! "He who Sins if of the Devil", Not God! (1 Jn. 3:7-10) Luther taught a FALSE Grace message! (Tit. 2:11-12 & Jude 3-4) Eternal Security is a Myth! (Matt. 10:22 & Heb. 3:14) This man was a Heretic, Not a Saint. Wake up before your time is up! courtesy standingthegap.org


 
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Abiding

Guest
#24
anymore of those crepes?:p
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#25
I think Skinski you have a problem with Romans 5 and how Adam sin brought death to the whole world and how Jesus saves the world from death and the Law of sin and death.

how do you explain the following verses?

Romans 5
[h=3][/h][SUP]6 [/SUP]For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— [SUP]13 [/SUP](For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, [SUP]21 [/SUP]so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#26


Your quoting Luther?????????????
why not, you keep telling lies about the man, thought I might read what he actually said instead of the lies you post about him.

did you read my request of NO strawmen?

and I refuse to read any thing from standinginthegap.org

if you can't say it with your own words, know I will ignore all post that begin to quote their brainwashing false doctrine.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#27
who in the world is "Trish Reden Weimar" and why can't I find his book or any reference to him except on the standing for the gap website?

no book of Luther contains the lies that the standing in the gap websites says that he says.



 
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Ariel82

Guest
#28
I don't like when people quote other's teaching in attempt to discredit them without quoting a source of the quote IN CONTEXT because everyone knows how if taken out of context a person's words can be twisted

just as people twist scripture out of context.

therefore I guess i will have to do some research on Luther and his writings because I highly doubt that Luther ever uttered what "Trish Reden Weimar" claims he said

if Luther taught such things there would be more people who denounced him, because I do not know a single person who would say Luther taught that Jesus had sex with the woman at the well or Mary Magdelene and would like proof of such claims besides that ...website...

otherwise it is just Libel against a man God used to bring many to Christ.

anyway researching Luther sermons now...

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/luther/sermons.pdf
 
Dec 26, 2012
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#31
Jesus indeed bore our sins. Jesus indeed suffered on our behalf. Jesus indeed offered Himself up to God without spot for our sin.

What Jesus did not do is "take on our guilt" nor did Jesus "bear the wrath of God as our substitute."

Isa 53 says that "WE" esteemed Him stricken and smitten of God. It does not say that God punished Jesus in our place. That view is "read into" that verse.
Skinski,

What does but mean? (You do have a habit of leaving out verse 5 on from Isaiah 53)

But Definition Merriam Webster

a : except for the fact <would have protested but that he was afraid>
b :
that —used after a negative <there is no doubt but he won>
c : without the concomitant that <it never rains but it pours>
d : if not :
unless
e :
than <no sooner started but it stopped> —not often in formal use

2
a : on the contrary : on the other hand :
notwithstanding —used to connect coordinate elements <he was called but he did not answer> <not peace but a sword>
b :
yet <poor but proud>
c : with the exception of —used before a word often taken to be the subject of a clause <none but the brave deserves the fair — John Dryden>

Keeping that in mind then what about verse 5 where Isaiah says BUT HE WAS


Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him


So what does Isaiah mean when he wrote BUT HE WAS PIERCED.....




 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#32
i deleted the rest because I understand that part but I'm not sure if I understand "double imputation" or even the need to have our sins imputed to Christ.

why can't Jesus blood just cover the sins and wash them off us? why do the sins have to be placed on Jesus?


i'm going to look up the Bible verses you quoted...


I'm not convinced that our sin is placed upon Jesus. for example that verse could mean that Jesus put on sinful flesh, or that dying on the cross is considered a curse or sin but Jesus did it for our sakes.... i'll look at the next verse...

Isaiah 53

[/FONT][/COLOR]

ok that shows how Jesus was unjustly punished for the sins of others upon the cross.

1 peter 2



alright guess that settles it. Jesus bore our sins in His own body. suffered in our place.

have you heard the song "It should have been me"

Citizen Way - Should've Been Me (Lyrics) - YouTube

[youtube]It-hyB1EEI8[/youtube]


[/FONT][/COLOR]
LOL Ariel
tra la la
the stroll through Illogical Park to What does the Scripture say?
love it.

(yer soundin' like Luther with that kinda rhetoric - LOLOLOL)

Skinski?
Skinski?

 
Jan 19, 2013
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#33
Skinski7 said:
Ro 5:18-19 articulates it well.

v. 18 - Just as the result of one trespass (sin in the garden) was condemnation for all men (Adam's guilt imputed to all men),
so also the result of one act of righteousness (Jesus' death) was justification that brings life for all men (forgiveness of sin imputed to all who believe in Jesus).

v. 19 - Just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam), the many were made sinners (Adam's guilt imputed to all men),
so also through the obedience of the one man (Jesus), the many will be made righteous (Jesus' righteousness imputed to all who believe in him).

impute = to charge with (guilt of Adam), or credit with (righteousness of Christ)
"An individual is accountable for their own sin because without the law sin is not imputed."
That doesn't even make sense.
You don't have a clue regarding the meaning of Ro 5:12-21 and imputation, which has already been covered with you (here).

The Bible teaches that we are all born in bondage to sin, sold to sin by Adam (Ro 5:12-14).
The argument of the text is as follows:

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23), and all sin is transgression of the law (1Jn 3:4).
However, there was no law to transgress between Adam and Moses, and yet all mankind died (v.14).
Because death is the wages of sin, their death means they were guilty of sin (v.12).

But sin is not taken into account when there is no law (v.13).
So what sin were those between Adam and Moses guilty of that caused their death?

Their death was caused by the transgression of one man, of which transgression
all mankind was held guilty (Ro 5:15), which is why all men died between Adam and Moses
even though sin was not taken into account, and is the only cause of death.

All mankind is born in bondage to sin by their descent from Adam, who sold them to sin (Ro 7:14).
Men did not sell themselves into bondage to sin. Mankind inherited their bondage to sin from Adam,
caused by his transgression of the law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."

Therefore, all mankind is by their sinful nature born an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

Let's just cut to the chase:

Because you are clueless about the meaning of Ro 3:25-26 (and, therefore, cannot present a consistent and Biblical explanation of my questions regarding it, here) you are, therefore, clueless about the meaning of Ro 5:12-21, and imputation.

So any further discussion witih you on atonement, or God's gift of righteousness (Ro 3:21, 22, 4:11, 5:17) is unproductive until you present that consistent and Biblical explanation of my questions, here.


You have clearly demonstrated the problem in two threads now, and this will be the third.

You are in no position to Biblically evaluate the authors you read because you don't understand the Scriptures.
You don't even know where to start to present your position Biblically, therefore, many of your statements on the Scriptures are just ridiculous, being based as they are in Biblical ignorance.

All you can do is present the views of other men, declaring those with whom you disagree to be wrong, and based in no sound understanding and exegesis of your own..

For example, you do not, because you cannot, exegete Ro 3:25-26 (presented here).

There can be no productive discussion with you about the Scriptures because you don't understand them and, therefore, have to base your opinions of what is right and wrong on the opinions of men.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you cannot support your view with sound exegesis of the Scripture, in light of all the Scriptures.

You are simply defending the views of men, and not the Scriptures.

You should be in an unorthodox theology discussion forum, not in a Bible discussion forum.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#34


Skinski....like we've been telling you....you have a chance TODAY to make amends to all those pastors you've been maligning.
seriously, don't delay.
you're in a heap of trouble.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#35
Jesus indeed bore our sins. Jesus indeed suffered on our behalf. Jesus indeed offered Himself up to God without spot for our sin.

What Jesus did not do is "take on our guilt" nor did Jesus "bear the wrath of God as our substitute."

Isa 53 says that "WE" esteemed Him stricken and smitten of God. It does not say that God punished Jesus in our place. That view is "read into" that verse.
what????

it clearly says that the LORD laid on Jesus the iniquity of us all

Isaiah 53
[SUP]6 [/SUP]All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

you sir are twisting scripture to fit your own doctrines and falsely accuse others of what you, yourself practice.

Jesus was WITHOUT SPOT the Bible says when He offered Himself up on our behalf therefore He could not have been stained with our sin. He was our sin bearer and NOT our substitute. In a sense one could say that His sacrifice is a substitute for our condemnation, but only in the sense that it is through the blood that we can have our sins forgiven and be reconciled to God. Jesus did not swap places with us like Penal Substitution teaches, that is a dangerous heresy invented during the Reformation.
in one breath you say... in one sense "His sacrifice is a substitute for our condemnation" and in the next you are calling it a heresy.....

I would urge you to go to Theopedia.com and wikipedia.com and do some research on Penal Substitution and Imputed Righteousness in order to understand how the various doctrines developed throughout history.
neither of which could ever be cited in any scholarly paper because I could write and post an article on either. they are more like forum post then scholarly archives. if i want to research Penal substitution and imputed righteousness. i prefer books, sermons or articles published in through seminaries or colleges. ones whose facts can be crossreferenced and cite many scriptures as well as historical events.

These doctrines have negated an authentic repentance experience whereby the old man DIES with Christ and the body of sin is DESTROYED once and for all. Unless a grain of wheat DIES it abides alone. We have to die WITH CHRIST in order to be reconciled to God. These doctrines destroy this aspect of the Gospel.
I don't think they do. i think you misunderstand them because you get your information about the doctrines from people who would have you believe differently instead of from those who actually preach and believe in them. your secondary sources have lied to you about what the doctrine actually teaches.


Under the premise of an abstract judicial exchange as the basis of justification true heart purity is thrown out the window.
again no, have you even read the sermon posted at the beginning of this thread?

This many professing Christian's come into a FALSE NOTION of salvation while they still remain double-minded and carnal and sold under sin. No true redemption from sin took place. There is no heart purity.
that may be true but its not because of those doctrines but because those people did not listen and did not have the Holy spirit show them truth to begin with. most who teach imputed righteousness of Christ also say that if you do not have true fruit, if you do not have true repentance, then you lie and are not born again of God and His Holy Spirit is NOT leading you.

i've read just a few sermons on the subject today and its evident that many of the men you degrade and curse with you words do NOT preach what you claim they do.

perhaps you need to repent, humble yourself and prayfully read what the men are actually saying instead of the lies you have forced feed into their mouth.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#36


Skinski....like we've been telling you....you have a chance TODAY to make amends to all those pastors you've been maligning.
seriously, don't delay.
you're in a heap of trouble.
It's not only pastors. Basically every belief and believer of classical christianity is contentiously and constantly being attacked by this fellow together with Tommy4Tommy. We have young people here asking for help in the prayer request rooms being told that they are not christians, getting these youtube vids of "good teaching" or quotes from the abominable standing in the gap site as replies to their very serious requests. And many such things, going on and on.

It was interesting for a short while but has been tiresome for quiet some time now and I hope the broom comes out soon. Hardline catholics usually get a limited time and space for their contentions. These people, far more "cultic", have already said their opinion long ago. Should be enough. Here a quote from the abominable standing in the gap site: There isn’t a Pastor alive today anywhere who would say anything that may upset the people in the Churches or make them feel uncomfortable or Convicted of any wrong doing. Such people are simply said just malplaced in a christian forum.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#37
Here [is] a quote from the abominable standing in the gap site: There isn’t a Pastor alive today anywhere who would say anything that may upset the people in the Churches or make them feel uncomfortable or Convicted of any wrong doing. Such people are simply said just malplaced in a christian forum.
Will you give a link to that quote, please?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#38
Will you give a link to that quote, please?
Woe Unto You < click

"AGAIN: IF YOU were Magically Transported back to Second Century Christianity and began teaching that Sins are Forgiven in Advance, God Can’t see you Sinning, Eternal Security, Imputed Righteousness, Election, Predestination and Original Sin, you would be an ENEMY of the Truth! The Pastors may appear as Princes today because the Lie has the upper hand. BUT Soon the diversion will End. IF there is a Glimmer of Light able to Break through your Delusion, FLEE the System NOW! There’s a Train Wreck Coming…..DON’T be onboard when it Hits. (or you will NOT be able to escape the Condemnation of hell!)"

^ crackpot ^