God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[Abiding]

The bigger context helps.
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, [SUP]3 [/SUP]among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [SUP]5 [/SUP]even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [SUP]6 [/SUP]and raised usup together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[zone]

i went away and studied this topic.
faith is a gift.

but Eph 2 is not the passage that proves it.
that subject of that passage is salvation.

faith is a gift.
AMEN

 

[SarahM777]

 

[Abiding]

all good things are gifts. right Eph2 isnt the passage to use.

 

[PS]

i went away and studied this topic.
faith is a gift.

but Eph 2 is not the passage that proves it.
that subject of that passage is salvation.

faith is a gift.
AMEN

That accords with my own feelings but I would like to ask a couple of questions if I may, we know that our faith increases as we walk the Christian life and get to know the Lord better which is to be expected, but when do you think we receive the gift of faith and do you think there is a distinction between faith in God and believing in God?

For example someone who is afraid of flying believes in aeroplanes but they have no faith in them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The faith IS the work.
"Faith without works is dead".

lol. Faith produces work. faith is not the work itself. You totally ignored romans 4 why is that?

Grace is NOT a human work. - (Thus no room for boasting)
Salvation is NOT a human work. ('' - - - - - - - - ")
Belief IS a work.
Faith IS an action.

Again wrong. Faith produces actions depending on what the faith is in.. But faith is not work. Paul tells us this all over his writings. it is by faith, not works, lest anyone should boast. The boasting comes from working, not in faith

No one boasts in their faith? - Have you ever heard of the prosperity doctrine?

Yeah I have.. They give (work) and expect reward.. Thus they boast in their giving..

I'm harsh? - (I though I was holding back)

Thats ok. I am used to it from you guys

 

[Bookends]

If my brother works hard and earns money, then turns around and buy a house with that money, and then gives that house to me, did I earn it or work for it? No. All I had to do is receive it in good faith.

 

[zone]

That accords with my own feelings but I would like to ask a couple of questions if I may, we know that our faith increases as we walk the Christian life and get to know the Lord better which is to be expected, but when do you think we receive the gift of faith and do you think there is a distinction between faith in God and believing in God?

For example someone who is afraid of flying believes in aeroplanes but they have no faith in them.

Colossians 1
Greeting
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2To the saints and faithful brothersa in Christ at Colossae:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, 6which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, 7just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant.b He is a faithful minister of Christ on yourc behalf 8and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

9And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12giving thanksd to the Father, who has qualified youe to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If my brother works hard and earns money, then turns around and buy a house with that money, and then gives that house to me, did I earn it or work for it? No. All I had to do is receive it in good faith.

Oh but you had faith. thus you earned it.. so you can go around boasting how hard you worked for the house!!

 

[PS]

Colossians 1
Greeting
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2To the saints and faithful brothersa in Christ at Colossae:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, 6which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, 7just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant.b He is a faithful minister of Christ on yourc behalf 8and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

9And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12giving thanksd to the Father, who has qualified youe to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Thanks, that explains the believers position very clearly. First though we are told to seek him and those who ask will receive.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Pro 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Mat 7:8-11 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

 

[tribesman]

The catholics use the "history" excuse too/ As did the jews. I think it is dangerous to try to base our beliefs on what happened almost 2000 years ago, as much of what we would have had would have been destroyed by the roman church... Again, do we do as the catholics do, Do we do as the jews did? thinking like this God Christ crucified, and the very people he have the word to did it because they followed traditions and not the word of God..Forgive me if I refuse to buy into this false premise and risk falling as the jews did

I'm with you here up to a point. It's just that this radically reforming or restoring thingy can go to an extreme which is not only unbiblical but also absurd. Happens frequently in these circles who love to speak about "restoring 1st century christianity", yet knowing very little about same. I am sure that if it was possible to go back in time to see how these 1st century christians lived most if not all of these "radicals" would say with more or less indignation "that's judaizing!" and sometimes "that's catholicism!". Scripture reading should always keep the contemporary environment in mind and not back off from historical facts. A christianity that is "wholly free from traditions" will soon, itself, create a lot of its own traditions that would have made the first apostles at least shake their heads, worst off shake the dust of their feet.

 

[tribesman]

Well good question. The answer is, on his own no. But is he on his own? question: if a man hears the gospel and chooses to believe it...will he, meaning all that do, be received?

As I see it he's already received when doing so. He's "accepted in the beloved" based on God accepting the sacrifice of Christ.

 

[tribesman]

yet more attacks.. By the way, Your the one who opened up the interpretation argument not me. So now your blaming me for going there?

No attacks at all. Just trying to get you understand that your rhetoric must also be applied to yourself. Fair enough.

It does not say the whole world is this way, It says the whole world has hardened their hearts to truth, Turned God into their own God, Loved sin more than God. Come on, you were that way before you came to christ. are you denying it?

Not at all denying that. I just don't see how everything in Rom.1 applies to all of mankind.

Ah, But in the greek, the word ignorant does not mean unknown as you may think. there are two greek words translated ignorant in the english text. This one speaks of one who knows, but hides the truth in their heart, thus becoming darkened to truth. Which is exactly what the passage says..

You should look it up!

I didn't say I think it must mean "unknown". But are you saying that the unbelieving pharisees knew the truth, they just hid it in their hearts in a way it became darkened? THAT's a daring exegesis for sure! I'd say, with scripture, that they were BLINDED.

 

[tribesman]

Actually I have written record of the earliest church, It is found in scripture from acts to revelation. So why would I care what men after these men wrote? Are those men reliable? were they inspired by God?

LOL. I am NOT by any stretch comparing scripture with the writings of the church fathers. Its just that some of the writings of the fathers at least do give insight into contemporary life if anything.

being in the military, I have travalled and lived in many states. Attended many churches. many of which are quite large churches. The church I attend now has over 6000 people who attend on a semi regular basis, Every church I have ever attended believes in this.

Its very possible I've missed something but as far as I can recall I've not heard anyone having the same doctrine as you regarding the restoration of Israel. These figures you give are quiet numerous, ought to be a known doctrine much discussed on the web etc.

Yet that does not matter does it? We do not go off popular interpretation. We could be in error by doing that (like the jews in Christ's time) We should just go by the word right?

Yes, the Word. But it might be pride coming in thinking I don't need to mind what christians taught and believed for 2000 years. Me alone and the Bible can make it better.

I have yet to find a Church I agree 100 % with everything everyone believes, I doubt I ever will..

Agree. This is not something unique or new, that's why creeds are there: to agree on the essentials.

 

[tribesman]

It must be. Or God would not tell us to come to him, and he will give us eternal life. To believe in him, and he will remove condemnation. To trust him, and he will never let us down.

If free will is removed and we can not do the things Jesus said we must do to be saved, then no one could be saved.

Eph 2 says we are saved by the redemption in Christ, By Grace,, Due to his mercy, the gift is salvation.

In vs 8 - 9 Paul makes it clear, this gift is found by faith, not works, lest anyone should boast. One can not boast in faith in Christ. Or Paul would have said they could. One can only boast if they try to work out their own salvation.

Here you have it: we must do to be saved and that's where we differ. I'd say every and all condition (requirement, prerequisite) for our salvation was fulfilled in the work and person of Jesus Christ alone. Totally outside of us. That is how justification is in Christ alone and not in any "part" in us.

 

[tribesman]

This is your issue. No one here is saying man has the ability or choice to contribute to his or her salvation. that would be a salvation of works.. I can;t contribute anything, if i could Christ would not have needed to die for me.

No issue about this. You are constantly saying that salvation hangs upon natural man's ability to believe in Jesus. Fact.

This is false. if we could not respond, we could not believe, and jesus and god would not tell us to respond in faith, and that is the only way. even further, he would not be able to tell us if we do not respnd, we have no hope. thus you have issues both ways!

A command doesn't always by necessity imply ability in those who are commanded to do it. When Jesus commands you to be perfect as God is perfect, does that mean you have the ability to do so, if you just want to? See the same road as skinski and tommy4tommy? You have an issue with some of your literalist and linear Bible reading.

 

[Abiding]

As I see it he's already received when doing so. He's "accepted in the beloved" based on God accepting the sacrifice of Christ.

Was the sacrifice of Christ for all men without distinction? And are the drawn those who are accepted because "they"
believe and receive the gospel?

I understand i think you believe only the elect(chosen before time began with no concern at all for anyones belief or will)
So maybe asking this question is not going to produce anything. It may be back to the zap thing im still not convinced of.

 

[PS]

Here you have it: we must do to be saved and that's where we differ. I'd say every and all condition (requirement, prerequisite) for our salvation was fulfilled in the work and person of Jesus Christ alone. Totally outside of us. That is how justification is in Christ alone and not in any "part" in us.

Whoever believes Jesus has done it all, the work is complete.

 

[tribesman]

Was the sacrifice of Christ for all men without distinction? And are the drawn those who are accepted because "they"
believe and receive the gospel?

It's somewhat inevitable to discuss this without coming into that question. We've all wrestled with the extent of the atonement (maybe save for the universalists who insists that literally all of mankind will be saved). Personally I'd say I see far more evidence for what is popularly known as limited atonement than against it in scripture.

I believe God works by way of covenants, the covenant of promise being unconditional. I also believe that justification occurs at the time of regeneration in which same is received by faith as an instrument NOT a condition or a prerequisite. I see it as very clear from scripture that literally "all men" are not given this and that literally "all men" are not included in the covenant of promise.

There are many millions people who died (in their sins) never hearing the gospel. How many people died today in countries where there is little, very little or virtually no christianity? How are you gonna solve this problem? You want to accept "forced exegesis" to press all of these people either into Christ or into some form of prevenient grace? Either way: it is not there in scripture.

It is huge problem for those who think that God is "unfair" only to save His people and not literally "all men". The mormons (not all mormons, to be fair, but mainly the Utah mormons) have "solved" this problem with "baptisms for the dead". Since the universality many people assume or "think" has to be part of God's dealings is not found in scripture some kind of (anti)system of theology, philosophy, anachronism or even ritual have to be forced into scripture reading.

If we just can hammer home once and for all that God owes no man nothing and that it would have been fair of Him not to save a single soul, and that saving a single soul depends solely on His unmerited pardon, grace and mercy, not anything in the recipient of same, then that might be a good start.

 

[Chr]

This thread is merely asking the question:
Does God have a choice.
Does God actually have a choice in salvation, or is it left up to mankind.
After He(God), did His work.
Who elect's who?
And how do they go about it?
This is the question of this thread.

Rick you might wanna retitle your thread? Do you mean God's sovereign election or man's free will?