Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ
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A
I believe God is working on them.
just a few post back Skinski was agreeing with Zone. kind of suprising.
if they would realize the standingthegap website is full of a bunch of lies they may break free of their deception.
one never knows what God can do.
not my call if they stay or not. as long as they are around I'll try my best to show them the error of their ways in a manner Christ would approve of.
its all I really know how to do. besides a lot of prayers for those who are not able to discern the lies from some of the truth they mix in their message.
just a few post back Skinski was agreeing with Zone. kind of suprising.
if they would realize the standingthegap website is full of a bunch of lies they may break free of their deception.
one never knows what God can do.
not my call if they stay or not. as long as they are around I'll try my best to show them the error of their ways in a manner Christ would approve of.
its all I really know how to do. besides a lot of prayers for those who are not able to discern the lies from some of the truth they mix in their message.
nah...that's naive...no offense ariel. i know your heart is in the right place.
but they hate the church.
if they apologize and publically REPENT, i might see it your way. their big deal is repentance proven by deeds. so let's SEE IT.
i've seen those guys in action all across the web. just a disaster.
Jesus told Peter to take care of His lambs.
He meant it.
for now those guys are wolves.
but they hate the church.
if they apologize and publically REPENT, i might see it your way. their big deal is repentance proven by deeds. so let's SEE IT.
i've seen those guys in action all across the web. just a disaster.
Jesus told Peter to take care of His lambs.
He meant it.
for now those guys are wolves.
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Why does he keep saying everyone is sinning and full of lust? Whats with him?I think he needs help maybe a two box situation here!
I have never said "everyone is sinning and full of lust." Please quote where I said any such thing?
I have said that those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the passions and desires and thus no longer walk as slaves to sin yielding to those lusts of the flesh.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Yet is that what they preach in the typical church? Do Pastors get up in the pulpit and say things like this...
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Are the pastors telling people to "flee from sin" to "depart from iniquity" or do they promise them salvation in the midst of ongoing sin?
The VAST MAJORITY clearly promise salvation in the midst of ongoing sin because I have spoken to multitudes of pastors and they have plainly told me that one can be engaged in the sins of the flesh and be saved at the same time, that God understands the human struggle and they will then usually point to Romans Chapter 7 as a description of the human struggle.
They believe that man is "born" a sinner and that "actual sin" is necessitated by the flesh itself. Thus, in their mind, sin is the result of being born with a "sin nature" as opposed to an "exercise of the will" which necessitates a gospel message where people are "saved in their sins" and "declared righteous" whilst "still in sin." If one is declared righteous "whilst still in sin" then the sins that one is still in cannot undo that declaration (otherwise it would negate the original declaration in the first place). Therefore the "cessation of sin" is taught as a "gradual process" of "sinning less and less" over a period of time AFTER salvation. This in a nutshell is the SAVED IN SINS message.
The pastors I speak to believe that Christian's can YIELD TO SIN and yet remain in a justified state. The clearest recent example is the Assembly of God pastor I sat down with a few weeks back and had a discussion with. He plainly told me about a man in his congregation who was addicted to pornography and could not seem to give up this sin. The pastor truly believed that this man was "saved" but was simply an example of the "wretch" of Romans 7. Therefore this pastor truly believed that one can be engaged in sexual sin and still enter the kingdom. This pastor believed that as long as this man was convicted over his ongoing sin then God was still in the process of working with him and all Christian's are at different stages in this process.
Bear in mind that I fully understand that a babe in Christ is in a different position to someone who is mature in Christ. Yet this difference is in the context of growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It IS NOT in the context of "engaging less and less in the lusts of the flesh." A true born again believer HAS CRUCIFIED the passions and desires of the flesh and thus a sin like pornography viewing has ceased. It is through broken godly sorrow and repentance that the flesh is crucified.
The issue I have with the church system (generally ALL church congregations with VERY FEW exceptions) is that they simply do not preach Biblical repentance and faith. Due to them not preaching a Biblical repentance and faith the converts are not coming out of their sins but are instead coming into a NOTION of salvation whilst they STILL REMAIN IN BONDAGE. That IS NOT salvation, it is not even close to salvation.
I prolifically contend against this problem and the ROOT CAUSE which is the underlying errors in the theology that is taught.
A true Christian has been redeemed from ALL iniquity. They are no longer a slave to sin and the walk of the Spirit is a walk where one lives in victory over the lusts of the flesh. There is no such thing as a Christian Drunk, Christian Porn Watcher, Christian Adulterer, Christian Thief, etc. A Christian can most certainly do those things but if they do they have fallen from their steadfastness and they MUST do their first works otherwise they will most certainly perish in their sins.
True Christian's ARE NOT sinners
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Praise God.
you claim you're pure and without sin.
right?
1 John 1:8
New International Version (©1984)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
English Standard Version (©2001)
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
no need to confess your sins, right?
i assume you haven't confessed any sin since your saved date.
would that be correct?
it has to be for you to be consistent.
please answer.
briefly.
right?
1 John 1:8
New International Version (©1984)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
English Standard Version (©2001)
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
If we say, "We have no sin," we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
no need to confess your sins, right?
i assume you haven't confessed any sin since your saved date.
would that be correct?
it has to be for you to be consistent.
please answer.
briefly.
A
now who is talking out of both sides of his mouth?
". There is no such thing as a Christian Drunk, Christian Porn Watcher, Christian Adulterer, Christian Thief, etc. A Christian can most certainly do those things"
you teach the same thing you rile against others for teaching.
you say that a Christian can do those things (which are sins against God) but then they need to repent.
that is the same message those preachers you contacted tried to convey to you, yet you do not seem to realize that you war against the same things you attempt to teach.
you're message is not consistent and you do not examine your own teachings with the same poisoned vision critique you use upon the sermons and teachings of others.
". There is no such thing as a Christian Drunk, Christian Porn Watcher, Christian Adulterer, Christian Thief, etc. A Christian can most certainly do those things"
you teach the same thing you rile against others for teaching.
you say that a Christian can do those things (which are sins against God) but then they need to repent.
that is the same message those preachers you contacted tried to convey to you, yet you do not seem to realize that you war against the same things you attempt to teach.
you're message is not consistent and you do not examine your own teachings with the same poisoned vision critique you use upon the sermons and teachings of others.
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A pastor who tells his congregation that they have security whilst in the midst of their sin is preaching false grace. This is the kind of grace he is preaching...
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The grace that brings salvation teaches this...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The grace that brings salvation teaches this...
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
C
Some do not distinguish sin, but considers all sin as transgression. Some say there are sins unto death and some not. And Brother, both are backed up by Scripture. And yet there are those who do not understand that we are not under the Law.
To me, there needs be to a list of agreed upon definitions of the words sin, transgression, righteousness, justification. Without that list, we have division with each side not fully understanding the other side.
P.S. I agree with you: we are to die to the flesh and become alive to the spirit. This we all agree on. Flesh is vanity, spirit is life.
To me, there needs be to a list of agreed upon definitions of the words sin, transgression, righteousness, justification. Without that list, we have division with each side not fully understanding the other side.
P.S. I agree with you: we are to die to the flesh and become alive to the spirit. This we all agree on. Flesh is vanity, spirit is life.
My comments in Red
now who is talking out of both sides of his mouth?
". There is no such thing as a Christian Drunk, Christian Porn Watcher, Christian Adulterer, Christian Thief, etc. A Christian can most certainly do those things" That's right a person who does those things IS NOT a Christian.
you teach the same thing you rile against others for teaching.
you say that a Christian can do those things (which are sins against God) but then they need to repent. DOING is an ACT OF THE WILL and a human being can CHOOSE to yield to the lusts of their flesh and get drunk, fornicate, steal, lie and cheat. Anyone who does those things is a child of the devil. This can happen to a Christian...
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
that is the same message those preachers you contacted tried to convey to you, yet you do not seem to realize that you war against the same things you attempt to teach. What I teach is not even close. The false teachers teach a sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent message. The problem with sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent is that the repentance is not genuine. A genuine repentance is not to be repented of...
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Repentance is not something a Christian is to do over and over again. Repentance can be very difficult to find because sin sears the conscience. A life of sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent is evidence that the heart is still full of iniquity and that the person is most likely attempting to defeat sin in the flesh having NEVER truly repented in the first place.
When one truly repents and is subsequently raised up to newness of life by God the contrast of going into the light from darkness is MASSIVE. To willfully sin go back to wallowing in the mire is NO SMALL ISSUE and brings with it such a defilement of the heart that a second repentance is not guaranteed. This is why Peter said this...
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This can happen...
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Which is why...
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Did you ever hear a pastor preach that? I doubt it for it would bring terror to the people. Very few understand it anyway because very few understand true repentance.
you're message is not consistent and you do not examine your own teachings with the same poisoned vision critique you use upon the sermons and teachings of others. You cannot understand my message because of the strongholds in your mind and that is why you will continue to jump to erroneous conclusions.
now who is talking out of both sides of his mouth?
". There is no such thing as a Christian Drunk, Christian Porn Watcher, Christian Adulterer, Christian Thief, etc. A Christian can most certainly do those things" That's right a person who does those things IS NOT a Christian.
you teach the same thing you rile against others for teaching.
you say that a Christian can do those things (which are sins against God) but then they need to repent. DOING is an ACT OF THE WILL and a human being can CHOOSE to yield to the lusts of their flesh and get drunk, fornicate, steal, lie and cheat. Anyone who does those things is a child of the devil. This can happen to a Christian...
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
that is the same message those preachers you contacted tried to convey to you, yet you do not seem to realize that you war against the same things you attempt to teach. What I teach is not even close. The false teachers teach a sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent message. The problem with sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent is that the repentance is not genuine. A genuine repentance is not to be repented of...
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Repentance is not something a Christian is to do over and over again. Repentance can be very difficult to find because sin sears the conscience. A life of sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent is evidence that the heart is still full of iniquity and that the person is most likely attempting to defeat sin in the flesh having NEVER truly repented in the first place.
When one truly repents and is subsequently raised up to newness of life by God the contrast of going into the light from darkness is MASSIVE. To willfully sin go back to wallowing in the mire is NO SMALL ISSUE and brings with it such a defilement of the heart that a second repentance is not guaranteed. This is why Peter said this...
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This can happen...
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
Which is why...
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Did you ever hear a pastor preach that? I doubt it for it would bring terror to the people. Very few understand it anyway because very few understand true repentance.
you're message is not consistent and you do not examine your own teachings with the same poisoned vision critique you use upon the sermons and teachings of others. You cannot understand my message because of the strongholds in your mind and that is why you will continue to jump to erroneous conclusions.
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
phusis: nature
Original Word: φύσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phusis
Phonetic Spelling: (foo'-sis)
Short Definition: nature, inherent nature
Definition: nature, inherent nature, origin, birth.
you are a Pelagian heretic.
reported, again.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
phusis: nature
Original Word: φύσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phusis
Phonetic Spelling: (foo'-sis)
Short Definition: nature, inherent nature
Definition: nature, inherent nature, origin, birth.
you are a Pelagian heretic.
reported, again.
A
do you even realize you just contradicted yourself?
as for the rest, yes I have heard it preached quite a bit. sorry you haven't been listening.
instead you seem to preach become a Christian, sin be rejected by God, repent and become a christian again message.
once people are adopted they are not rejected but changed. if they are not changed then they were never adopted in the first place. that message is found in quite a few churches
the problem is not always the preacher but the listeners or the lack of listeners.
would you fault Jesus because the Pharisees did not understand the message?
so if Tommy was to fall back into looking at porn would he be forever forsworn and no matter how much he repents not be made acceptable to God?
Is that what you teach?
as for the rest, yes I have heard it preached quite a bit. sorry you haven't been listening.
instead you seem to preach become a Christian, sin be rejected by God, repent and become a christian again message.
once people are adopted they are not rejected but changed. if they are not changed then they were never adopted in the first place. that message is found in quite a few churches
the problem is not always the preacher but the listeners or the lack of listeners.
would you fault Jesus because the Pharisees did not understand the message?
so if Tommy was to fall back into looking at porn would he be forever forsworn and no matter how much he repents not be made acceptable to God?
Is that what you teach?
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Not being under the law has two aspects as far as I understand it.
Firstly we serve in the Spirit and not the letter, for the letter kills by the Spirit brings life. This simply means we yield to God from the heart and are not to get bogged down by legalism. Thus if one person wants to keep a certain day holy or eat a certain thing, if they are doing it from an honest heart, then God counts that as righteousness.
Secondly there is the law of sin and death. We sin and we earned the wages which is death. Yet the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord hence we are brought out from under condemnation via the blood and His Spirit.
Many perceive "not being under the law" means they are "uncondemnable" for committing an act of sin. That is not true, we will reap what we sow, if we sow to the Spirit we will reap eternal life, if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption.
Firstly we serve in the Spirit and not the letter, for the letter kills by the Spirit brings life. This simply means we yield to God from the heart and are not to get bogged down by legalism. Thus if one person wants to keep a certain day holy or eat a certain thing, if they are doing it from an honest heart, then God counts that as righteousness.
Secondly there is the law of sin and death. We sin and we earned the wages which is death. Yet the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord hence we are brought out from under condemnation via the blood and His Spirit.
Many perceive "not being under the law" means they are "uncondemnable" for committing an act of sin. That is not true, we will reap what we sow, if we sow to the Spirit we will reap eternal life, if we sow to the flesh we will reap corruption.
tolerance is one thing....clicking like is a whole other ball game.
after all this time, what excuse is there?
anyways, i'm making use of the button....which i rarely rarely do.
i heard directly from a youngster derailed by these guys.
if this kid falls further into despair and i lose contact, Tommy and Skinski are responsible.
after all this time, what excuse is there?
anyways, i'm making use of the button....which i rarely rarely do.
i heard directly from a youngster derailed by these guys.
if this kid falls further into despair and i lose contact, Tommy and Skinski are responsible.
C
Some preach repentance. And thank you Skinski for showing people this need.
Some preach the grace. And thank those who do.
Both are correct.
It seems to me, some are speaking about dying to the flesh, and others about our inability to do so (I want to do good but I cannot). So, what is the solution: obey (hearken to) the Voice who leads you. He will show you the path to exit any rebellion and will lead you to the Promised Land.
Yet, we all are members of the same body with different tasks.
Some preach the grace. And thank those who do.
Both are correct.
It seems to me, some are speaking about dying to the flesh, and others about our inability to do so (I want to do good but I cannot). So, what is the solution: obey (hearken to) the Voice who leads you. He will show you the path to exit any rebellion and will lead you to the Promised Land.
Yet, we all are members of the same body with different tasks.