This is to whom the shoe fits.

Therapon · Feb 24, 2013

This is probably my final post, and it is to whomever the shoe fits.

On this forum, my views have been so misrepresented and I’ve been lied about so egregiously that to clear the air, here is my theology, vis-à-vis the Jews.

Contrary to popular belief, the observant Jews of the Christian era do trust in Jesus. They call Him their Messiah and they are looking for Him just like you and I are. They just don’t know that He already came here once to die, and they don’t know His New Testament name because they have been sovereignly blinded by God to the New Testament Gospel (Romans 11: 8). But according to some here, the Jews are lost because they don’t have that head knowledge and aren’t worshipping Jesus according to their doctrine.

During World War II, Menachem Begin was a prisoner in the Warsaw ghetto. He watched as those Nazi butchers drove his parents and 500 other Jews into the Warsaw River and machine gunned them down. As the blood of those precious people stained that river red, they had their hands raised toward heaven and were singing that beautifully touching Jewish hymn, “Oh how we love our Messiah and long for his appearance.” So who do you suppose they were singing about?

If you think for one moment that our beloved Savior who died “not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world” didn’t reach down and save those dying Jews who were calling upon Him by the only name they knew, then you indeed serve a different God than I do.

Personally, I’m saddened by the argumentative, disrespectful, doctrinal arrogance that I have been subjected to while here. Angry in spirit sometimes, but it was not my anger. You believe you are born again because you hold doctrines approved by the group. But salvation is not in your doctrines, it is in having a humble and contrite heart towards God, of which I see little. Where are the fruits of the Spirit, the longsuffering, gentleness, mercy, the true indicators that the Lord has replaced your hearts of stone with hearts of flesh?

zone · Feb 24, 2013

zone said:

ellis, i've had a change of heart about what i consider false doctrine.

who am i to say?

and what does it really matter?

i'd like to apologize to you. you have every right to teach jews don't know the Name of Jesus.

there must be something really wrong with me, because everywhere i read, and all the jews i talk to know Jesus by Name.

but maybe i'm in a coma or something

sorry about maligning you.
you might be right.

""And it is tradition: On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu [the Nazarene]. And the crier went forth before him forty days (saying), [Jeshu the Nazarene] goeth forth to be stoned, because he hath practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray. Anyone who knoweth aught in his favor, let him come and declare concerning him. And they found naught in his favor. And they hung him on the eve of the Passover. Ulla said, 'Would it be supposed that [Jeshu the Nazarene] a revolutionary, had aught in his favor?' He was a deceiver and the Merciful (i.e. God) hath said (Deut. xiii 8), ‘Thou shalt not spare, neither shalt thou conceal him.’ But it was different with [Jeshu the Nazarene] for he was near the kingdom.'" (Sanhedrin 43a)"

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus
For 2,000 years Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?

One of the most common questions we receive at Aish.com is: "Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?" Let's understand why ― not in order to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.
____________________

2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah

A. Messiah as Prophet
The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets ― Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

B. Descendent of David
Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father ― and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (1)

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

C. Torah Observance
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
____________________

3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text ― which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. Virgin Birth
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. Suffering Servant
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

______________________

4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, they do not prove he is a genuine prophet. All the miracles show ― assuming they are genuine ― is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation ― i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus, why Jews reject Jesus < click

etc etc.

thanks Therapon.

Abiding · Feb 24, 2013

zone · Feb 24, 2013

i always liked Ringo

[video=youtube;t6CMSuT98-E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6CMSuT98-E[/video]

rauleetoe · Feb 24, 2013

Therapon said:

This is probably my final post, and it is to whomever the shoe fits.

On this forum, my views have been so misrepresented and I’ve been lied about so egregiously that to clear the air, here is my theology, vis-à-vis the Jews.

Contrary to popular belief, the observant Jews of the Christian era do trust in Jesus. They call Him their Messiah and they are looking for Him just like you and I are. They just don’t know that He already came here once to die, and they don’t know His New Testament name because they have been sovereignly blinded by God to the New Testament Gospel (Romans 11: 8). But according to some here, the Jews are lost because they don’t have that head knowledge and aren’t worshipping Jesus according to their doctrine.

During World War II, Menachem Begin was a prisoner in the Warsaw ghetto. He watched as those Nazi butchers drove his parents and 500 other Jews into the Warsaw River and machine gunned them down. As the blood of those precious people stained that river red, they had their hands raised toward heaven and were singing that beautifully touching Jewish hymn, “Oh how we love our Messiah and long for his appearance.” So who do you suppose they were singing about?

If you think for one moment that our beloved Savior who died “not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world” didn’t reach down and save those dying Jews who were calling upon Him by the only name they knew, then you indeed serve a different God than I do.

Personally, I’m saddened by the argumentative, disrespectful, doctrinal arrogance that I have been subjected to while here. Angry in spirit sometimes, but it was not my anger. You believe you are born again because you hold doctrines approved by the group. But salvation is not in your doctrines, it is in having a humble and contrite heart towards God, of which I see little. Where are the fruits of the Spirit, the longsuffering, gentleness, mercy, the true indicators that the Lord has replaced your hearts of stone with hearts of flesh?

You won't find mch of those 'fruits' here..others here seem to worry about gifts of the spirit,fruit of the spirit,grace devoid of human reponsibility,and other things that will not bring salvation..Honestly, this should be called,Lutheranchat,calvinist chat,or charismatic chat..that's what this forum is inundated with.
Sorry you had tough times here..you're not alone.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 24, 2013

Therapon said:

This is probably my final post, and it is to whomever the shoe fits.

On this forum, my views have been so misrepresented and I’ve been lied about so egregiously that to clear the air, here is my theology, vis-à-vis the Jews.

Contrary to popular belief, the observant Jews of the Christian era do trust in Jesus. They call Him their Messiah and they are looking for Him just like you and I are. They just don’t know that He already came here once to die, and they don’t know His New Testament name because they have been sovereignly blinded by God to the New Testament Gospel (Romans 11: 8). But according to some here, the Jews are lost because they don’t have that head knowledge and aren’t worshipping Jesus according to their doctrine.

During World War II, Menachem Begin was a prisoner in the Warsaw ghetto. He watched as those Nazi butchers drove his parents and 500 other Jews into the Warsaw River and machine gunned them down. As the blood of those precious people stained that river red, they had their hands raised toward heaven and were singing that beautifully touching Jewish hymn, “Oh how we love our Messiah and long for his appearance.” So who do you suppose they were singing about?

If you think for one moment that our beloved Savior who died “not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world” didn’t reach down and save those dying Jews who were calling upon Him by the only name they knew, then you indeed serve a different God than I do.

Personally, I’m saddened by the argumentative, disrespectful, doctrinal arrogance that I have been subjected to while here. Angry in spirit sometimes, but it was not my anger. You believe you are born again because you hold doctrines approved by the group. But salvation is not in your doctrines, it is in having a humble and contrite heart towards God, of which I see little. Where are the fruits of the Spirit, the longsuffering, gentleness, mercy, the true indicators that the Lord has replaced your hearts of stone with hearts of flesh?

Most of your theology does not even matter

Your claiming God will save people who rejected Christ.. this is enough to show you teach a false gospel.. ENough said.

Tintin · Feb 24, 2013

Rauleetoe, what? Lutheran Chat? Are there that many Lutherans in the chat room?

1Christianwarrior316 · Feb 24, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Therapon does not teach what you have said and either you are misrepresenting what he said or you don't understand.
Enough said!

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 24, 2013

therapon, I like you and I respect you but I'm not sure I agree with you.

The Bible states there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ (e.g. John 14:6, etc...). Yet, God extended salvation through Jesus Christ to Old Testament Jews, the gentiles that fought with David, gentiles like Melchizedek, and gentiles that never even heard the name of Jesus Christ under the conditions that God did as per verses like 1 Peter 3:19 which states, "through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison that Jesus Christ died once for all." Those that received the Gospel of Jesus Christ are not in hell.

But make no mistake, universal salvation is unscriptural and simply not true.

Did Jews who reject Jesus but cry out for their Messiah find salvation? That seems, to me, to be what you are asserting. I would have to say no for to reject Jesus Christ is to reject salvation.

Now that said I understand that during the crying out process God may have revealed that Jesus Christ was, in fact, their Messiah and they may accepted him with their dying breath. If that happened, I accept that.

I bookmarked your website and may investigate your fine print further. Peace and God bless you! Make sure YOU have Jesus Christ as YOUR savior! Then we can hang out in heaven. And you're free to stop in anytime you feel lonely and want to chat. Shalom.

tribesman · Feb 24, 2013

Therapon said:

Popular belief is correct on this one and you are in grave heresy about this. Where you got these lunacies (or wishful thinking?) from I can only speculate about. This "head knowledge" thing is another thing you got goofed, most likely you just accepted it from others. In the Bible however there is no dichotomy between heart and head. If it's right in heart it's right in head. If it's not right in head it's not right in heart. I encourage you to read my post about this "head knowledge" nonsense I posted earlier at this board:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/46568-myth-head-vs-heart-knowledge.html <-link

Sentimental, forced exegesis?

Do you limit the saving grace of God to Christ-rejecting jews only? Or are also Christ-rejecting gentiles included? After all the latter also might not agree on everything with christians in doctrine, maybe the difference is only that they lack a little "head knowledge".

I can relate to that. However: you have as much a responsibility for what you teach, especially publicly, as all of us have. You cannot be surprised to meet gainsaying, especially if you teach that Christ-rejecting jews will be saved. It is all good that such heresy is righteously and justly rebuked and count me in on that rebuke. There's a difference to meet resistance for teaching truth than to teach error and heresy.

Salvation brings fruit which affects doctrine. And those who do not abide in that doctrine (as well as those who give their Godspeed to such people) have not God (2John1:9-11) Heresy on the other hand is said to be a work of the flesh (speaking of "the fruits of the Spirit") - Gal.5:20.

danschance · Feb 25, 2013

Therapon,

I am a big fan of yours. I have found your posts refreshing and thought provoking. You add class to this place and it would be a loss to this community if ceased your activities here. Don't get discouraged Think about how Jesus had to deal with the pharisees and even worse, the Sadducees.

I hope to continue reading your posts.

zone · Feb 25, 2013

rauleetoe said:

actually raul, there's lots of hard repentance and cessation of sin and fleeing the apostate church, and heart purification chat also

as much as anyone could wish for!

Therapon's ideas are cool.

i have some jewish friends (odd for an antisemite like me, eh? who knew?) who will be thrilled to know they don't have to accept Jesus. they don't like Him anyway.

they don't have to pick up any cross or leave father mother brother or sister or any of that.
can't wait to tell them i had it all wrong.
God Bless.

zone · Feb 25, 2013

AgeofKnowledge said:

therapon, I like you and I respect you but I'm not sure I agree with you.

The Bible states there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ (e.g. John 14:6, etc...). Yet, God extended salvation through Jesus Christ to Old Testament Jews, the gentiles that fought with David, gentiles like Melchizedek, and gentiles that never even heard the name of Jesus Christ under the conditions that God did as per verses like 1 Peter 3:19 which states, "through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison that Jesus Christ died once for all." Those that received the Gospel of Jesus Christ are not in hell.

But make no mistake, universal salvation is unscriptural and simply not true.

Did Jews who reject Jesus but cry out for their Messiah find salvation? That seems, to me, to be what you are asserting. I would have to say no for to reject Jesus Christ is to reject salvation.

Now that said I understand that during the crying out process God may have revealed that Jesus Christ was, in fact, their Messiah and they may accepted him with their dying breath. If that happened, I accept that.

I bookmarked your website and may investigate your fine print further. Peace and God bless you! Make sure YOU have Jesus Christ as YOUR savior! Then we can hang out in heaven. And you're free to stop in anytime you feel lonely and want to chat. Shalom.

oh AoK.
it doesn't matter.
come on.

who cares what the A.O.D. is.
if people want a long 70th week, or more than one way to be saved, or whatever, what's that got to do with us?

STOP JUDGING.

want some chicken?

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 25, 2013

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." -Acts 4:12

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5

zone · Feb 25, 2013

ps AoK.
i spent 3 months last year looking at the fine print.
i saw many of what i thought were errors.
i consulted an expert in Hebrew, and checked all sources.
i thought it mattered.

but as it turns out, people's feelings got hurt, and it cause a bunch of trouble, so if you want my advice, just let it be.

and everybody knows arabs are bad guys anyways so just leave it alone.

zone · Feb 25, 2013

AgeofKnowledge said:

but some poeple say the jews were deliberately blinded by God 2000 years ago, and that's why they are saved anyways.
and that's their belief.
so why not just leave it alone.

why must we be dogmatic like that with the scriptures?

wanna take a spin in my new ride?
come on...it'll be fun.
nothing else to do.

AgeofKnowledge · Feb 25, 2013

Three months is a lot of work. Acknowledged. Let's chill out for a minute. Hugs.

[video=youtube_share;HrNwEc_wseU]http://youtu.be/HrNwEc_wseU[/video]

zone said:

pickles · Feb 25, 2013

Therapon, I do hope you will choose to stay, I have enjoyed reading your posts as thay bring much to consider.

I have a time to time wondered about staying, mostly due to the disputes.
But then I ask, am I here for myself? Or for Our Lord Jesus.
For scripture says, do all things as unto the Lord.
Please do not misunderstand, as there are times we must leave, and I pray Jesus will bring much fruit where ever you go.
Im just saddened that maby another is leaving, for the reasons that the truth in Jesus, are calling us to stay.

God bless

pickles

Therapon · Feb 25, 2013

pickles said:

Thank you so much m'Lady, I also get private messages asking me to stay, but my primary service for the Lord right now is the Bible prophecy seminars I host for brethren in the US and as far away as Russia on www.gotomeeting.com. I'll try to drop by once in a while, but absolutely refuse to again be embroiled in the desputes so beloved by the few.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 25, 2013

Tintin said:

Not Lutheran here..

This is to whom the shoe fits.

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