What is the Messianic Kingdom?

[RedTent]

The only thing "relegated" to the Jews was that they were chosen by God to be the people through whom God would bring to pass His Plan of Salvation. That Plan has come to pass, their purpose has been served, and now they stand before God on equal footing with gentiles ... sinners in need of salvation.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I think we have to look deeper than this in scripture or we wouldn't have scripture like
zech 8:23 The LORD of Hosts says this: "In those days, 10 men from nations of every language will grab the robe of a Jewish man tightly, urging: Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

It is true that the Jews got so caught up in how to carry out, physically, God's instructions that they lost sight of the spirit of God. They also got so carried away with God getting them out of the predicament they were in with the Romans that they were blind to the scripture about a savior. But I think that we have to use what we see they did wrong to look for the mud in our own eye. Most of our leaders are so caught up in the spirit of God that they scream legalism and works aren't effective if any mention of doing is suggested. It is Jews in reverse.

The Jews got in this predicament because they took on pagan ways, telling everyone they were doing them for God, they changed the God the practices were for. We are doing this often. So lets not throw stones, we live in a glass house.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Think about it Zone..

The abrahamic covenant gave the land of canaan as an eternal promise to all of Abrahams children through Abraham, Isaac and jacob.

That's not true. The land was given to Israel only so long as they kept covenant with God. They didn't. Time and again throughout their history the Jews broke God's covenant and forfeited their inheritance. The Old Testament is replete with accounts of it. Why do you think they kept going into captivity and suffering judgments?

Or else. it was just a land covenant, which had nothing to do with salvation.

it can not be both ways..

I think you miss the essential point here. The land, the Kingdom of Israel, was a type of the Kingdom of Heaven, at the heart of which lay the courts of God's House. So the promise to Abraham, of eternal possession of a holy land, was not a promise of an earthly land, which is after all temporal and will one day pass away. The land to which Abraham looked was Heaven itself, which is why Jesus told us to lay not up for ourselves treasures on earth, but to lay up treasures in heaven, for where you treasure is, that's where your heart will be. And that's why so many of the Jews are blind to the truth, because their treasure and their heart is not in heaven, but in the dust of the earth. And like Esau of old, they will give up their eternal birthright to heaven for a mess of pottage. But not all, thank God not all. A remnant of Jews were, are, and will be saved, and that remnant of redeemed, blood-bought, Christ-believing Jews, they are "Israel."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Abiding]

[video=youtube;raJWuz7qQVc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=raJWuz7qQVc[/video]

with great theology and teaching like that who wouldntbe?

 

[RedTent]

=Pilgrimer; I think you miss the essential point here. The land, the Kingdom of Israel, was a type of the Kingdom of Heaven, at the heart of which lay the courts of God's House. So the promise to Abraham, of eternal possession of a holy land, was not a promise of an earthly land, which is after all temporal and will one day pass away. The land to which Abraham looked was Heaven itself, which is why Jesus told us to lay not up for ourselves treasures on earth, but to lay up treasures in heaven, for where you treasure is, that's where your heart will be. And that's why so many of the Jews are blind to the truth, because their treasure and their heart is not in heaven, but in the dust of the earth. And like Esau of old, they will give up their eternal birthright to heaven for a mess of pottage. But not all, thank God not all. A remnant of Jews were, are, and will be saved, and that remnant of redeemed, blood-bought, Christ-believing Jews, they are "Israel."

When you say the Kingdom of Israel was a type of the Kingdom of Heaven, it states it clearly and well. God wants us to live in His Kingdom, in a "land of milk and honey". The people of Israel messed up, and Christ came in the flesh to reestablish a kingdom.

God was speaking to David:
1Ch 17:11When your time comes to be with your fathers, I will raise up after you your descendant, who is one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom.
1Ch 17:12
He will build a house for Me, and I will establish his throne forever.
1Ch 17:13
I will be a father to him, and he will be a son to Me. I will not take away My faithful love from him as I took it from the one who was before you.
1Ch 17:14
I will appoint him over My house and My kingdom forever, and his throne will be established forever.'"

The Jewish leaders were sure that everything they were doing was in exact accordance with God's plan, and some of those who thought so gave their entire lives to studying. As I study their history and how they thought, it seems as if we are going down the very same road, even if it is in different ways.

Each of us have responsibilities toward the Kingdom.

 

[Abiding]

Ok im still trying to get my small handtools
cleaned up and ready to go Pilgrimer.
Where to next? Turkey i hope

 

[Elin]

That's not true. The land was given to Israel only so long as they kept covenant with God. They didn't. Time and again throughout their history the Jews broke God's covenant and forfeited their inheritance. The Old Testament is replete with accounts of it. Why do you think they kept going into captivity and suffering judgments?



I think you miss the essential point here. The land, the Kingdom of Israel, was a type of the Kingdom of Heaven, at the heart of which lay the courts of God's House. So the promise to Abraham, of eternal possession of a holy land, was not a promise of an earthly land, which is after all temporal and will one day pass away. The land to which Abraham looked was Heaven itself, which is why Jesus told us to lay not up for ourselves treasures on earth, but to lay up treasures in heaven, for where you treasure is, that's where your heart will be. And that's why so many of the Jews are blind to the truth, because their treasure and their heart is not in heaven, but in the dust of the earth. And like Esau of old, they will give up their eternal birthright to heaven for a mess of pottage. But not all, thank God not all. A remnant of Jews were, are, and will be saved, and that remnant of redeemed, blood-bought, Christ-believing Jews, they are "Israel."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Excellent!!!

WOW! Two of you!

 

[zone]

Excellent!!!

WOW! Two of you!

i missed everything!
now i gotta start over!

 

[norm1956]

Hi,
I hold a preacher sort of job, However i do not preach for i feel as if I am not worthy to teach for my personal reasons, Before i continue I am a Christian and i have been going to a baptist church for awhile off and on for months now, I will not say what church or what minister because I am sure that is what i am instructed to do from my father although I cannot remember the exact scripture without looking, This preacher has been bashing the Mormons for about 12 or more sermons lately, This is not the first time I have not agreed with what he has been preaching about, Last Wednesday night he took off on membership to the church and he did not just want anyone to belong there, well from what I see he is telling the truth because I have never seen over 15 people at one time in my life, well at this point i decided to not go back there, I just as many other Christians have a checkered past before i was saved and he talked about background and police checks on the members and such as that, well before this I had already told myself I was not going back there, But after his sermon on background checks , On my way out I told him that I am a very private person and if I want someone to know something about my past i will tell them myself, I have nothing to hide any more and there is nothing that i would not tell anyone if I were asked, But i can be a very intimidating person and I sort of let him know it would be a mistake to EVER bring up my past to the whole church, I know this was wrong of me to do ,, But Jesus himself taught of bring lost sheep home , and he also dined with criminals, I guess what i am saying is do you all think I am wrong for not wanting to be a member of a church that only wants saints as members to start with. I really feel that Churches are built to convert sinners not shun them , and because of this particular preacher I may well reconsider my worthiness to preach, and just run out and find me some sinners to help. Thanks

Please tell me what yall think Norm

 

[Abiding]

Hi,
I hold a preacher sort of job, However i do not preach for i feel as if I am not worthy to teach for my personal reasons, Before i continue I am a Christian and i have been going to a baptist church for awhile off and on for months now, I will not say what church or what minister because I am sure that is what i am instructed to do from my father although I cannot remember the exact scripture without looking, This preacher has been bashing the Mormons for about 12 or more sermons lately, This is not the first time I have not agreed with what he has been preaching about, Last Wednesday night he took off on membership to the church and he did not just want anyone to belong there, well from what I see he is telling the truth because I have never seen over 15 people at one time in my life, well at this point i decided to not go back there, I just as many other Christians have a checkered past before i was saved and he talked about background and police checks on the members and such as that, well before this I had already told myself I was not going back there, But after his sermon on background checks , On my way out I told him that I am a very private person and if I want someone to know something about my past i will tell them myself, I have nothing to hide any more and there is nothing that i would not tell anyone if I were asked, But i can be a very intimidating person and I sort of let him know it would be a mistake to EVER bring up my past to the whole church, I know this was wrong of me to do ,, But Jesus himself taught of bring lost sheep home , and he also dined with criminals, I guess what i am saying is do you all think I am wrong for not wanting to be a member of a church that only wants saints as members to start with. I really feel that Churches are built to convert sinners not shun them , and because of this particular preacher I may well reconsider my worthiness to preach, and just run out and find me some sinners to help. Thanks

Please tell me what yall think Norm

Hi Norm welcome. I cant give opinion about that church. But i can say your past is between you and God
If you are in Christ and not a threat to anyone. And if you know Jesus and How He died for our sins, and
want to tell someone and want to help people, it cant get any better than that.

Hopfully you can find a church that has worship and feeds the flock and not dwell to much on the otherone.
In the meantime if you hang out here, i hope you can make some friends. mike

 

[Abiding]

Also norm we have email here.
anytime ok?

 

[zone]

I think we have to look deeper than this in scripture or we wouldn't have scripture like
zech 8:23 The LORD of Hosts says this: "In those days, 10 men from nations of every language will grab the robe of a Jewish man tightly, urging: Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

dunno if this has been addressed yet
am still trying to read 1000 threads at once.

that's either about Christ Himself or the Apostles.
fulfilled.

 

[Elin]

eternally-grateful, please, I ask you in the name of Jesus, just for a moment, put aside all the end times and prophecy doctrine and go back to the simple truths of the Gospel. To suggest that God will at some future time "set up his kingdom" means you have allowed these end-time doctrines to convince you that God doesn't have a kingdom. Surely if you think of these things from the perspective of the Gospel you'll realize that's not true. God already has a kingdom, God has always had a kingdom, it is an eternal kingdom without beginning and without end, and that kingdom is Heaven. . ."God's kingdom" is the Kingdom of Heaven, and it doesn't need to be set up, it already exists, and has always existed.

And that's the kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven, that Jesus came and laid down his life to open the way into. He did not lay down his life to set up another earthly kingdom in Israel. The Kingdom of Israel was a type and a shadow of the kingdom of Heaven and it's Heaven that Jesus opened the way into through his blood.

Are you saying that kingdom is within (entos) us (Lk 17:21)?

 

[Elin]

i missed everything!
now i gotta start over!

I was referring to post #19, which you have not missed.

 

[Elin]

It does simplifly eschatology.

Typified and forshadowed are past tense, and the types and shadows pass away with the advent of the reality itself (Col 2:17; Heb 9:10, 10:1); i.e., the kingdom of God in Christ which is forever (Da 2:44).

The NT people of God, both Jews and Gentiles, which is the church, is the fullfilment (goal, end) of the ages (1Co 10:11).
There is no other age to come but eternity.

The major problem with this line of thinking is that it has ALWAYS been jew and gentile never one or the other,
when it comes to salvation.

Red herring.

It's not about salvation.
Salvation is not the issue in a future earthly temporal Messianic kingdom.

The people of God, are there one or two, is the issue.

Your eschatological view holds to two different peoples of God:
those of the NT, and those of a future temporal Messianic kingdom.

That is contrary to apostolic teaching of only one people of God, the body of Christ.
Are you positing two bodies of Christ?

 

[zone]

Red herring.

It's not about salvation.
Salvation is not the issue in a future earthly temporal Messianic kingdom.

The people of God, are there one or two, is the issue.

Your eschatological view holds to two different peoples of God:
those of the NT, and those of a future temporal Messianic kingdom.

That is contrary to apostolic teaching of only one people of God, the body of Christ.
Are you positing two bodies of Christ?

what i have never been able to fathom is in this supposed future kingdom on earth (which would be temporary again anyway, ending in precisely 1,000 years)....is what is the soteriology in THAT time?

never been able to get satisfactory answers.

everything from glorified saints (one version has it jews reigning with gentile christians under them; a second view is just fuzzy on who is who) reigning over flesh people (who procreate), with a Glorified Jesus in Temporal Jerusalem.

sacrifices (animals??!) etc have to be included since that's the only conclusion.

just no idea what the soteriology would be there.

Law i guess.

then after 1,000 years sinful men rise up and battle Jesus in Person.

nah...

 

[Abiding]

what i have never been able to fathom is in this supposed future kingdom on earth (which would be temporary again anyway, ending in precisely 1,000 years)....is what is the soteriology in THAT time?

never been able to get satisfactory answers.

everything from glorified saints (one version has it jews reigning with gentile christians under them; a second view is just fuzzy on who is who) reigning over flesh people (who procreate), with a Glorified Jesus in Temporal Jerusalem.

sacrifices (animals??!) etc have to be included since that's the only conclusion.

just no idea what the soteriology would be there.

Law i guess.

then after 1,000 years sinful men rise up and battle Jesus in Person.

nah...

Oh all you picky people with brains bulging out your ears.
Why cant you just play along once in awhile

 

[Elin]

Oh so now you are siding with the Jews and believe
the Abraham covenant given to them makes them all saved..

Thats good to know..

God gave two covenants to Abraham:
1) a unilateral unconditional covenant of the possession of Canaan (Ge 15:17-18), and
2) a bilateral conditional covenant to be their God (Ge 17:3-14).
Conditions: "As for me" (v.4), and "As for you (v.9).

But we learn in Ge 15:6 that it was faith in God's promises (Ge 12:3, 15:4-5) that was credited to him as righteousness.
The promise to bless all nations through Abraham (Ge 12:3) was a promise of Christ,
and belief in that promise was a belief in Christ, the Promise.

So salvation in Israel was by belief in the Promise.
It was not granted by covenant.

 

[zone]

Oh all you picky people with brains bulging out your ears.
Why cant you just play along once in awhile

haha ya.
the head knowledge thing.

it's work. a lot of it.
study takes discipline.
years. for life i reckon.

need willingness to admit error (at least internally) and re-start too i reckon.

it's nice also when we are gracious/honest enough to say what we used to believe, and how we came to change our minds.

it sort of opens the door for us to admit we may be having some issues.

hardly anyone does it though.

 

[zone]

God gave two covenants to Abraham:
1) a unilateral unconditional covenant of the possession of Canaan (Ge 15:17-18), and
2) a bilateral conditional covenant to be their God (Ge 17:3-14).
Conditions: "As for me" (v.4), and "As for you (v.9).

But we learn in Ge 15:6 that it was faith in God's promises (Ge 12:3, 15:4-5) that was credited to him as righteousness.
The promise to bless all nations through Abraham (Ge 12:3) was a promise of Christ,
and belief in that promise was a belief in Christ, the Promise.

So salvation in Israel was by belief in the Promise.
It was not granted by covenant.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

LXX clears up much of this trickery we see today....seed singular.

 

[Elin]

Excuse me, It has never been about salvation. Unless you believe the jews, who were NATURAL descendants of Abraham

were not only given the land, but eternal life at the same time.

Yes, the covenants were not a promise of salvation, or eternal life.

But the covenants are not the issue here.
The issue here is a future temporal Messianic kingdom.

And the issue with a future temporal Messianic kingdom is not salvation,
it is two peoples of God instead of one, as the apostles teach.

Why go to gen 3: 15? that has nothing to do with the promise given to abraham, Issac and Jacob.!!

gen 3: 15 is the promise which saved many people before the abrahamic covenant was even given.. Your correct. that is about salvation. Most of the covenant made with abraham was not.

We are saved by believing genesis 3: 15. we are
not saved by believing "in you shall all th enations of the world be blessed

(which is salvic in nature as to who it applies

Not quite.

The promise to Abraham to make him a blessing to all nations was a continuation of the promise of Christ made in Ge 3:15.
Israel was saved by believing in both promises, not just Ge 3:15.

And yes, there was nothing salvific in the covenants.
But salvation is not the issue with a future temporal Messianic kingdom.