Does God Love Sinners?

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If God predetermines everything that happens in people's lives, then everything that happens to them is God's will--even sin. That is not true.This verse limits God's predestination to only those whom He foreknew. This means that only those people who God knew would accept His offer of salvation have been predestined. He does not predestine people to be saved or lost. Those whom He foreknew in Christ have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. As we can tell by observation, God doesn't even force that to happen. With some Christians, this will not occur until they receive their glorified bodies, but it will occur.
God gave all people free will, and God will not violate that free will except in judgment. Even in judgment, God is only enforcing the choices that people have already made of their own free will. All people have a God-given right to go to hell if they want to.
 
would the operative word be world ? As you stated, even the world hated and still hates Jesus -- yet
'for God loved the world, SO he gave...."
even in your observation of the Greek, the action is love in reference to the world.
 
[h=3]Isaiah 54:9-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
 
cfultz3 said:
But it says, God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER (no elect being spoken about here).....

What do we do about the WHOSOEVER?
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The whole of the revelation of the Bible must be taken. The verse continues saying whosoever BELIEVES in Him.... Clearly the Bible says the predestined elect are the whosoever that will believe. Sinners will not choose Jesus or even seek God. Romans 3:9-18
 
piper27 said:
would the operative word be world ? As you stated, even the world hated and still hates Jesus -- yet
'for God loved the world, SO he gave...."
even in your observation of the Greek, the action is love in reference to the world.
Click to expand...
Here is what is meant by "world":
Revelation 5:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us[SUP][a][/SUP] kings[SUP][b][/SUP] and priests to our God;
And we[SUP][c][/SUP] shall reign on the earth.”
The gentiles of the world had no real opportunity for salvation until Christ's sacrifice. The elect of the gentiles worldwide would now be brought into the Kingdom of God.
I light of all the scripture on predestination/election it is the only possible meaning.
 
piper27 said:
Isaiah 54:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
Click to expand...

I am sure you do not think this refers to all sinners. God is referring to the elect of Israel, not even all of Israel.
 
lesjude said:
Here is what is meant by "world":
Revelation 5:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us[SUP][a][/SUP] kings[SUP][b][/SUP] and priests to our God;
And we[SUP][c][/SUP] shall reign on the earth.”
The gentiles of the world had no real opportunity for salvation until Christ's sacrifice. The elect of the gentiles worldwide would now be brought into the Kingdom of God.
I light of all the scripture on predestination/election it is the only possible meaning.
Click to expand...
If God chose the Hebrews for a deliverance, were they all elect and assured of that deliverance?
 
lesjude said:
If you read how the Gospel was preached in the book of Acts you will see nothing was said about God's love for sinners. Sinners were told they were under God's wrath, had an opportunity to escape that wrath, told to repent and believe Jesus died and rose again. There was no pleading or emotional appeals by those ministering.
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You're kind of obsessing over Acts, which is merely the second letter Luke wrote to Theophilus. The first letter was of course the gospel of Luke, which has the message of God's love for the world. Remember the good tidings of great joy, WHICH SHALL BE TO ALL PEOPLE?
 
piper27 said:
If God predetermines everything that happens in people's lives, then everything that happens to them is God's will--even sin.
Click to expand...
No, sinners make a freewill choice to sin. God gives them that freewill. God only sustains their lives in it which does not make Him responsible. He directs them in those sins to cause His predetermined plan to come to pass i.e. the timing and other directive, permissive, preventive, and determinative controls. God is not sovereign if He has to react by making a change of plan as a result of what men do which is what must occur if His plan determined before time began is not ALWAYS in effect.

.
That is not true.This verse limits God's predestination to only those whom He foreknew. This means that only those people who God knew would accept His offer of salvation have been predestined. He does not predestine people to be saved or lost. Those whom He foreknew in Christ have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ
Click to expand...
.
If God looks down History and chooses who he sees will accept Christ in the future He is giving salvation as a result of man doing something which is not grace but works. Further God says he does not know sinners in the context of salvation only His elect because He choose them from before the foundation of the earth. The ones who are not predestined/elect would NEVER make a freewill choice to stop sinning Romans 3:9-18. Here are some verses that show God does predestine all events: Acts 15:8, Ephesians 1:4-5 and 11, 2 Timothy 1:9, and
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP](for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), [SUP]12 [/SUP]it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]13 [/SUP]As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Clearly God did NOT elect either of them on the basis of future actions he foreknew. His foreknowledge was because the plan for every event was in place before time began.
As we can tell by observation, God doesn't even force that to happen. With some Christians, this will not occur until they receive their glorified bodies, but it will occur.
God gave all people free will, and God will not violate that free will except in judgment. Even in judgment, God is only enforcing the choices that people have already made of their own free will. All people have a God-given right to go to hell if they want to.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Freewill is a name only for how and to what extent sinners choose to disobey God. It is not an issue for those in Christ.
The elect from their side MUST hear the gospel and make a free will choice to receive Christ. From God's side He draws them and gives grace so they can. The Bible teaches nothing else.
 
JimJimmers said:
You're kind of obsessing over Acts, which is merely the second letter Luke wrote to Theophilus. The first letter was of course the gospel of Luke, which has the message of God's love for the world. Remember the good tidings of great joy, WHICH SHALL BE TO ALL PEOPLE?
Click to expand...
The book of Acts is the early church preaching the gospel by the direction of the Holy Spirit from an understanding of predestination and election NOT Jesus loves sinners. That idea is only found in the "modern" church.
Surely you do not believe ALL will be saved. All people of the world clearly means the message would now go to all the world for a harvest of the elect souls from the gentiles who were virtually shut out until Christ came.
Revelation 5:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us[SUP][a][/SUP] kings[SUP][b][/SUP] and priests to our God;
And we[SUP][c][/SUP] shall reign on the earth.”
 
cfultz3 said:
If God chose the Hebrews for a deliverance, were they all elect and assured of that deliverance?
Click to expand...

Not all the Hebrews are/were elect:
[h=3]Romans 9:6-8[/h]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


[h=3]Revelation 3:9[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
 
lesjude said:
Not all the Hebrews are/were elect:
Romans 9:6-8



[SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]8 [/SUP]That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


Revelation 3:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
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But, they were God's chosen people to serve Him? So, if they were elected, would they then not all be saved? Unless elect means those whom God has chosen in the sense of having chosen the Hebrews and those who are under His Son. Now, to me that would mean that those who are in Christ are the elect of God, inasmuch as the Jews were elected by God.
 
lesjude said:
The whole of the revelation of the Bible must be taken. The verse continues saying whosoever BELIEVES in Him.... Clearly the Bible says the predestined elect are the whosoever that will believe. Sinners will not choose Jesus or even seek God. Romans 3:9-18
Click to expand...

they wont?

I was a sinner when I chose Jesus,, I don;t know anyone who was not a sinner who chose him. do you? I would like to meet them, considering Jesus said only God is good.
 
cfultz3 said:
But, they were God's chosen people to serve Him?
Click to expand...
Yes, but from the beginning they rebelled against God. Only 2 over the age of 20 went in to the promise land and most rebelled after they arrived. The elect of the Hebrews were saved by grace through faith and the rest? Well it seems they are in hell.
So, if they were elected, would they then not all be saved? Unless elect means those whom God chosen in the sense of having chose the Hebrews and those who are under His Son. Now, to me that would mean that those who are in Christ are the elect of God, inasmuch as the Jews were elected by God.
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It was the preincarnate Christ that was leading them in the wilderness. Obviously nearly all rebelled against Him and died in their sins. The elect were saved by grace through faith as were all others who were saved/elect in the OT.
 
lesjude said:
It was the preincarnate Christ that was leading them in the wilderness. Obviously nearly all rebelled against Him and died in their sins. The elect were saved by grace through faith as were all others who were saved/elect in the OT.
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You are missing my point.....they who are in Christ have been chosen by God as His people (His elect: those He has chosen). Who are they: whosoever shall believe in the Son.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
they wont?

I was a sinner when I chose Jesus,, I don;t know anyone who was not a sinner who chose him. do you? I would like to meet them, considering Jesus said only God is good.
Click to expand...
Please do not be deliberately obtuse. Of course all were sinners before Christ apprehended them. NON ELECT sinners will never choose to stop sinning. Please give just one scripture that says they will. Romans 3:9-18 says they will not.
 
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