What does "limited atonement" mean?

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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#1
Limited atonement is an odious doctrine to many.

So, it might be helpful to look at what is meant by the doctrine,
to facilitate a correct understanding of what is so odious.

This is not to defend limited atonement, nor to address objections to it.
It is simply for the correct understanding of it.

So the beginning point would be the two opposing interpretations of the Biblical gospel.

1) one is of a God who saves,

2) the other is of a God who enables man to save himself, by choosing to believe.

One makes salvation depend on the work of God, the other on the work/choice of man.
One regards faith as part of God's gift of salvation, the other as man's own contribution to salvation by his choice.
One gives all the glory of saving believers to God, the other divides the praise between (as the theologian put it) God who built the machinery of salvation, and man, who by believing operates it.

However, the Bible presents God as the whole world's Maker and King, the Creator who is Lord, working all things after the counsel of his own will. The Biblical perspective is a God-centered outlook, which sees the Creator as the source, and means, and end, of everything that is, both in nature and in grace. The whole range of processes and events that take place in the history of God's world are simply the outworking of God's great pre-ordained plan for his creatures and his church. The Bible presents God as sovereign everywhere, including salvation.

GOD - Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together to achieve the salvation of a chosen people: the Father electing, the Son fufilling the Father's will by redeeming, and the Spirit completing by renewing.

SAVES - does everything from first to last that is involved in bringing man from death in sin to life in glory: plans, achieves and communicates redemption, calls and keeps, justifies, sanctifies, glorifies.

SINNERS - as God finds them: guilty, helpless, powerless, blind, unable to do anything regarding God's will or better their spiritual condition.

God saves sinners is the Biblical testimony. Sinners do nothing to save themselves.
Biblically, the achievement of salvation is not partly by God, and the decisive part (to believe) is by man.
The sinner's inability is total, and he does not share with his Savior the praise of his salvation.
The Bible presents salvation, from first to last, whole and entire, past, present and future, as of the Lord.

The issue regarding atonement is its extent as presented in Scripture.
Scripture presents atonement as a transaction securing the salvation for all for whom it was designed.
According to Scripture the Redeemer's death actually saves his people, as it was meant to do.
Scripture presents Christ's redeeming work as effective, therefore, it was not intended for any where it is not effective.
If it were intended where it is not effective, the Father and Son have failed in what they set out to do.

Regarding "the world," "all" and "the perishing," sound exegesis shows they do not teach any such thing regarding the extent of Christ's atonement.
An atonement for all actually has no saving power. It leaves us to save ourselves by making the right choice.
But Christ did not die in vain for anyone.
That makes both God and Christ too small.

The cross is not a redemption which does less than redeem.
Christ is not a Savior who does less than save those for whom he died.
God's love is not an affection too weak to keep anyone from hell without help.
Faith is not the human help which God needs for this purpose.

So the odious doctrine is simply that Christ's atonement is ineffective for no one, and actually saves all for whom he died.

The particularity of atonement is the uniform Biblical presentation of redemption.

Which raises the question: If Christ did not die for everyone, then why are we held personally responsible for not obeying God's command to "Repent and believe." (Mk 1:15)

That's for another thread. . .on God's Sovereignty and Man's Responsibility.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#2
I am a little confused Elin. I was under the impression you are Lutheran, so I take it you are simply giving us a Reformed commentary on Particular Atonement and it is not particularly your view?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#3
I am a little confused Elin. I was under the impression you are Lutheran, so I take it you are simply giving us a Reformed commentary on Particular Atonement and it is not particularly your view?
I am not Lutheran, I am Presbyterian (PCA).

And I have no objection to this understanding of limited atonement.
I see it as Biblical.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#4
Mans state is cut off from God "Death" was the verdict.

John 3:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but him that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath(death) of God abidith(verdict) on him.

It matters little to me what extent of depravity people want to presume or glean
from scriptures. Man cant reconcile Himself to God. Lets say man was completely
capable and even capable of doing pretty good morally. That is not the issue.

The issue is that man is cut off from God in adams fall and in his own performance.
In order to be reconciled to God it has to be on His terms. Terms He has made.
It also will take His power to present those terms. And quicken us to understand
those terms.

But that in itself does not express limited atonement. To get limited atonement
takes fancy footwork.

Here limited atonement to me:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
Mans state is cut off from God "Death" was the verdict.

John 3:[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but him that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath(death) of God abidith(verdict) on him.

It matters little to me what extent of depravity people want to presume or glean
from scriptures. Man cant reconcile Himself to God. Lets say man was completely
capable and even capable of doing pretty good morally. That is not the issue.

The issue is that man is cut off from God in adams fall and in his own performance.
In order to be reconciled to God it has to be on His terms. Terms He has made.
It also will take His power to present those terms. And quicken us to understand
those terms.

But that in itself does not express limited atonement. To get limited atonement
takes fancy footwork.

Here limited atonement to me:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life

But even that would not be limited atonement. Because that offer applies to all men and women.. It is not limited to who can receive that offer.

It is like john 1: 12. But as many as have RECEIVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right, or power to become sons of God.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#6
Just to be an agreeable guy tho.....I will agree that all will be Saved whom Christ died for.....check
God chose............................................................... check
Man was toast and needed Gods power for salvation................................................................. check
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#7
But even that would not be limited atonement. Because that offer applies to all men and women.. It is not limited to who can receive that offer.

It is like john 1: 12. But as many as have RECEIVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right, or power to become sons of God.

Yes it would limit the atonement to those who believe:p
Although Christ died for all.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#9
Let's see.
Both Reform and the Scriptures say 'All have sinned'
Both the Reform and Scriptures say 'Christ died for sinners.'
Therefore;) Christ died for all.

On the other hand...
If God loves everyone and Christ died for all
then why didn't God predestinate or elect all?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#10
Let's see.
Both Reform and the Scriptures say 'All have sinned'
Both the Reform and Scriptures say 'Christ died for sinners.'
Therefore;) Christ died for all.

On the other hand...
If God loves everyone and Christ died for all
then why didn't God predestinate or elect all?
The answer is in the meaning contextually of the words elect and predestinated.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#11
The answer is in the meaning contextually of the words elect and predestinated.
Context was in the diffeerence between the Lutheran and Reform camp since they both hold to total depravity and unconditional election.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#12
Context was in the diffeerence between the Lutheran and Reform camp since they both hold to total depravity and unconditional election.


there's a Werther's in there for ya too:)
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#13
Just to be an agreeable guy tho.....I will agree that all will be Saved whom Christ died for.....check
Do I understand you correctly?

If all will be saved whom Christ died for,
and Christ died for all,
then all will be saved?

Isn't that universal salvation?

Is that what you are saying?

God chose............................................................... check
Man was toast and needed Gods power for salvation......................... check
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#15
For whom it may concern. The stories in the Old testament i dont think are just filler.
Ive studied them for years and am amazed how much is hidden in plain site.

Wells for instance both in their names and what happened at them can only be briefed
in a post. For instance Rebekah, Jacob, and Jesus at same well in samaria. All over a Bride.
Its hard to not go on in all it reveals.So ill throw out a couple.

Abraham a type of the Father
Isaac a typeof the Son
And the Servant unnamed Is a type of the Holyspirit in gen 24 but we know his name was Eliezer which means= aid, helper and goes unnamed.

Servant sent to find a bride asks:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the servant said to him(Abraham), “Perhaps the woman will not be willing to follow me to this land. Must I take your son back to the land from which you came?”

He is told:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And if the woman is not willing to follow you, then you will be released from this oath; only do not take my son back there.”

Ok then willingess is a requirement pretty clear there. In fact the only requirement. We dont need more but are given even more.
The family wants to make sure Rebekah is willing and made a choice

[SUP]57 [/SUP]So they said, “We will call the young woman and ask her personally.” [SUP]58 [/SUP]Then they called Rebekah and said to her, “Will you go with this man?”
And she said, “I will go.”

Ill skip the pearls with Jacob and just briefly Say Jesus sent from God went to Jacobs well
and said the same thing pretty much...give me to drink...then later told the samaritan woman
if you asked, id give you living water.

One will see the fact the Father wanted His sons bride to be willing..we could go on about the dowry
and dozens of other truths, and a limited atonement person would merely say well of coarse just
take the willing that just proves they were elect, haha what can a guy do?:p some horses just
aint thirsty:cool:


 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#16
Do I understand you correctly?

If all will be saved whom Christ died for,
and Christ died for all,
then all will be saved?

Isn't that universal salvation?

Is that what you are saying?
I wrote wrong, nope not saying that.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#18
God KNOWS who is destined for atonement, He knows the number of hairs on your head too but who' s counting :D
For God so loved the world....whosoever.....eternal life .


For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.



Of course, God knows who,,,,,,,,,,He's God, but, make no mistake God causes ALL men to see atonement reality, few choose it :(
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#20
They look yummy, it's salt water taffy down in these parts.
oh yikes.
i had a buncha that in Atlantic City - lost 2 fillings.
it was tasty tho