Must Shortly Come To Pass

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TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things that must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of, the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, even all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. - Revelation 1.1-3, ASV


Notice the words, "must shortly come to pass." Keep in mind that the original writings of this were written more that 1943 years ago. If we would use this phrase today what would it mean. For example, "the time for the Pittsburgh Pirates to win the World Series must shortly come to pass." Would that mean it wouldn't happen for more than 1900 years from now? Of course, the way the Pirates have been playing in the last 20 years, that might not be too far off. Okay, bad example. But, I think you get the point. If someone were to say that, you would expect the Pirates to win the World Series in the next couple years, and you might even expect to see it in your lifetime.


Well, why would this phrase mean one thing today, and something else when the Bible was originally written? The answer: it doesn't. Have the meanings of words changed that dramatically? The fact is, the people of the time of the apostles did expect the return of Christ in their lifetime. This is evidenced by 2 Peter 3 where Peter made a point to warn of mockers who would ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" (v.4) Why would Peter give this warning? It's because that is what the apostles taught, the soon return of Christ, but he didn't want these mockers to upset the faithful. And then he comforted them by telling them that the Lord is not slack concerning his return, but wanted all to be saved.


It is apparent that the apostles taught the soon return of Christ in their lifetime. Otherwise, the mockers would have had nothing to base their derision on.


And then, at the end of verse three, John wrote that the time was at hand. If I'd say my tea cup was at hand, would you think my tea cup was out in California, while I'm sitting in Pennsylvania? Of course not. You would think that my tea cup was near to me. So, why does that phrase mean something different in the Bible. The answer, it doesn't. These words mean the exact same thing in out contemporary use of the words as they did when they were originally written. You can check it out in the Greek. It won't change anything.


There is no doubt, the apostles taught the return of Christ in their lifetime. So what went wrong? Nothing. What's wrong is the futurist's interpretation.


John wrote that the events he wrote about "must shortly come to pass." If they didn't, then John lied. And so did God, whom gave it to Christ, who then gave it to John, via an angel.


I can't for the life of me understand why people can't understand this. For anyone that has a working knowledge of the English language, this should be plain.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#2
It isn't the problem of the futurists interpretation. You quoted Peter but left out where he says a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord. Soooo it's been about two days so far.:cool:
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#3
I have heard this argument a thousand times. I do agree with you though.

Oh LOOK what I just did there... I said A THOUSAND.

Did I mean I literally heard this 1000 times, or did I mean that I have heard this many times before? Hmmmmmmm

Did i just use symbolism?????

Ok, shutting up.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#4
It isn't the problem of the futurists interpretation. You quoted Peter but left out where he says a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord. Soooo it's been about two days so far.:cool:
Job 9:3, "If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."
Psalms 50:10, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills."
Ecclesiastes 7:28, "...one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found."
Song of Solomon 4:4, "…whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men."
Daniel 5:1, "Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand."
Daniel 7:10, "...thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him."
Deuteronomy 7:9, "…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"
1 Chronicles 16:15, "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;"
Psalms 84:10, "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand."
Psalms 90:4, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,"
Psalms 105:8, "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."
Ecclesiastes 6:6, "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"2 Peter 3:8, "...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."



Thousand it used alot, doesnt really look like it was a definite number in these passages, yo.​
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#5


Job 9:3, "If. we will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."
Psalms 50:10, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills."
Ecclesiastes 7:28, "...one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found."
Song of Solomon 4:4, "…whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men."
Daniel 5:1, "Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand."
Daniel 7:10, "...thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him."
Deuteronomy 7:9, "…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"
1 Chronicles 16:15, "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;"
Psalms 84:10, "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand."
Psalms 90:4, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,"
Psalms 105:8, "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."
Ecclesiastes 6:6, "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"2 Peter 3:8, "...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."



Thousand it used alot, doesnt really look like it was a definite number in these passages, yo.​
So neither is the one thousand nine hundred and forty three years TomL mentioned a very definite number in God's Book.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#6
I can't understand why Rev. 1:10 is over-looked ? Because without understanding that verse ; it is impossible to understand why John said then, "must shortly come to pass" or Why Christ said that actually . That one verse is key to understanding Revelation. Without that verse no one can ever understand Revelation no matter how hard they try, or pray. Because God's word's must be listened to , every word.
 
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TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#7
So neither is the one thousand nine hundred and forty three years TomL mentioned a very definite number in God's Book.
Yes it is. 2013 (this year) minus 70 (as in AD) equals 1943. Since the New Testament was written prior to 70 AD it was written more than 1943 years ago.
 

TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#8
It isn't the problem of the futurists interpretation. You quoted Peter but left out where he says a 1000 years is as a day to the Lord. Soooo it's been about two days so far.:cool:
It's because Peter was expressing God's patience.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#9
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things that must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of, the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, even all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. - Revelation 1.1-3, ASV


Notice the words, "must shortly come to pass." Keep in mind that the original writings of this were written more that 1943 years ago. If we would use this phrase today what would it mean. For example, "the time for the Pittsburgh Pirates to win the World Series must shortly come to pass." Would that mean it wouldn't happen for more than 1900 years from now? Of course, the way the Pirates have been playing in the last 20 years, that might not be too far off. Okay, bad example. But, I think you get the point. If someone were to say that, you would expect the Pirates to win the World Series in the next couple years, and you might even expect to see it in your lifetime.


Well, why would this phrase mean one thing today, and something else when the Bible was originally written? The answer: it doesn't. Have the meanings of words changed that dramatically? The fact is, the people of the time of the apostles did expect the return of Christ in their lifetime. This is evidenced by 2 Peter 3 where Peter made a point to warn of mockers who would ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" (v.4) Why would Peter give this warning? It's because that is what the apostles taught, the soon return of Christ, but he didn't want these mockers to upset the faithful. And then he comforted them by telling them that the Lord is not slack concerning his return, but wanted all to be saved.


It is apparent that the apostles taught the soon return of Christ in their lifetime. Otherwise, the mockers would have had nothing to base their derision on.


And then, at the end of verse three, John wrote that the time was at hand. If I'd say my tea cup was at hand, would you think my tea cup was out in California, while I'm sitting in Pennsylvania? Of course not. You would think that my tea cup was near to me. So, why does that phrase mean something different in the Bible. The answer, it doesn't. These words mean the exact same thing in out contemporary use of the words as they did when they were originally written. You can check it out in the Greek. It won't change anything.


There is no doubt, the apostles taught the return of Christ in their lifetime. So what went wrong? Nothing. What's wrong is the futurist's interpretation.


John wrote that the events he wrote about "must shortly come to pass." If they didn't, then John lied. And so did God, whom gave it to Christ, who then gave it to John, via an angel.


I can't for the life of me understand why people can't understand this. For anyone that has a working knowledge of the English language, this should be plain.
Are you saying that everything has already been fulfilled? From reading your post that is what I see?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#10
Yes it is. 2013 (this year) minus 70 (as in AD) equals 1943. Since the New Testament was written prior to 70 AD it was written more than 1943 years ago.
Revelation was written between 90-100 AD
 

TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#11
I can't understand why Rev. 1:10 is over-looked ? Because without understanding that verse ; it is impossible to understand why John said then, "must shortly come to pass" or Why Christ said that actually . That one verse is key to understanding Revelation. Without that verse no one can ever understand Revelation no matter how hard they try, or pray. Because God's word's must be listened to , every word.
And what is your point about Rev. 1.10?
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#13
Can you prove that?
Can you prove it was written before 70 AD as you claim? Since you first made the claim you show me first.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#15
Yes. How can I say yes in ten characters?
OK then, you will have a problem proving Jesus returned before 70 AD. According to Revelation 1:7 when Jesus returns every eye will see Him.
 

TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#16
Can you prove it was written before 70 AD as you claim? Since you first made the claim you show me first.
For one, Nero was still alive. And Nero died in 68 AD.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#17
For one, Nero was still alive. And Nero died in 68 AD.
What does Nero have to do with the return of Jesus and every eye seeing Him?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#18
TomL, are you full preterist? Personally I am partial preterist, I believe most of the prophecies spoken of here were fulfilled AD 70. However, this excludes the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.
 

TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#19
OK then, you will have a problem proving Jesus returned before 70 AD. According to Revelation 1:7 when Jesus returns every eye will see Him.
You are missing something young man. "Behold he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1.7, ASV And again, "7Look! He is coming in the clouds.
Every eye will see him,even those who pierced him,and all the tribes of the earth will mournbecause of him.​
So be it! Amen." - ISV, isv.com

Often when people quote Revelation 1.7, they seldom do completely. It says that those who pierced him would see him. So, this verse limits the time when those who pierced him would still be alive.
 

TomL

Banned
Feb 26, 2013
151
0
0
#20
What does Nero have to do with the return of Jesus and every eye seeing Him?
It has to do with the timing John wrote Revelation. Nero was alive when John wrote it since he mentioned him by name.