What does "limited atonement" mean?

[1still_waters]

We can come up with these types of replies to God's sovereignty, but let's be careful of treading on territory we shouldn't.
He is the potter. We are the clay.
Sometimes it's our job to rest in his sovereignty and button our lip.

Job 40
40 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then Job answered the Lord and said:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“Behold, I am vile;
What shall I answer You?
I lay my hand over my mouth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Once I have spoken, but I will not answer;Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”




Job 42
42 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”



Romans 9
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”[SUP]20 [/SUP]But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” [SUP]21 [/SUP]Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

[cfultz3]

jimmydiggs -

If God saves a person, they will have faith. --If God does not save a person, then they will not have faith? So then, the question remains: why even bother with anything if we are destined then we are destined? What then is the purpose of God's Judgment? Will He then therefore judge Himself for what He has caused to be, seeing that we have to account for the wickedness we have performed?


If God has made you his, you will acknowledge him, and he will make you obey. (this does not preclude battles with the flesh) -- You Come and follow Me!!!! You pick up the cross!!!! That would make obedience forced and would prove satan right in saying that God was unable to created a being willing to obey Him.

A person who is not born of God, will continue with never fighting the flesh. - Agree. But, even a sinner will fight against things of the flesh which they consider immoral (ex- this or that)

 

[crossnote]

there would be a problem with this though

Does a loving God force people agianst their will to chose to trust him?? or does he lovingly allow them to chose to reject him, although he does everything he can to show them the truth? and everything he could to save them.

If God forced everyone to believe, it would be just as bad as the fatalistic view. we would all still just be robots, forced to do the will of a dictator by the name of God. and satan's lie would be found to be truth, and he was right to rebell.. as were all of us humans, because God does not have our best interest at heart,

this is the problem, all you have given is human reasoning with an emotional appeal at that. When it comes to God's dealings involving things eternal all we got is what He has revealed in Scripture, I am not saying your position of unlimited atonement or Elin's of limited is correct, from my study of Scripture I see a case for both sides but have a hunch that there is missing data which God hasn't chosen to reveal to us yet...maybe in eternity we won't be looking through a glass darkly.

 

[jimmydiggs]

yet scripture says he will not make us his UNLESS we acknowledge him first.

Where do you gather that from?

 

[Abiding]

If God only loved one person, it would still be unconditional. His love for that person would not be based on anything that person does, or has to offer.

Also, what do you think of this verse?

Hoseah 9:15
"Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there. Because of their
sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house. I will no longer love them; all
their leaders are rebellious.

He is giving them up to no longer "give" them His love.
It did nothing to His "Love" for them. But He was going to turn away
they were ruined towards Him. Did not want Him.

Thats always the way its told. At times they still repent. And He brings them back
I dont know the context. Sometimes He flat out destroys.

Whats the point? That if God only loved one person..........
Why would God only Love one person.....does this come up in the bible?

 

[jimmydiggs]

He is giving them up to no longer "give" them His love.
It did nothing to His "Love" for them. But He was going to turn away
they were ruined towards Him. Did not want Him.

It said he no longer loved them. What is this love that is being spoken of?

Whats the point? That if God only loved one person..........
Why would God only Love one person.....does this come up in the bible?

The number of people God loves does not effect the reasons for that love.

 

[jimmydiggs]

God does not change our will until we first come to him to be saved, If it is not that way, then it is God forcing his will on us.

Nah, no force required. He changes your heart. Your will changes because of your changed heart.

we must be justified first. and this is only by faith. Not everyone will trust Christ, but that does not mean it is not offered to them.

Ah, so justification comes before salvation?

 

[Abiding]

If this is the case, then does one really even have to have faith, seeing that they are destined for one place or the other. Why even acknowledge God? Why not live as you wish?

They dont have to have faith, according to them they are regenerated, then the Spirit gives them Faith as a fruit.
Even tho that is totally unbiblical.

 

[jimmydiggs]

jimmydiggs -

If God saves a person, they will have faith. --If God does not save a person, then they will not have faith?

Not a saving faith.

So then, the question remains: why even bother with anything if we are destined then we are destined?

We will bother, because he has saved us and made us new. If you want a license to sin, then be honest with us. Don't hide it behind theology though. God commands your obedience either way, and you will be brought into judgement.

What then is the purpose of God's Judgment?

Solid Deo Gloria

Will He then therefore judge Himself for what He has caused to be, seeing that we have to account for the wickedness we have performed?

He has performed no wickedness.

Did God sin, when he killed Jesus?

If God has made you his, you will acknowledge him, and he will make you obey. (this does not preclude battles with the flesh) -- You Come and follow Me!!!! You pick up the cross!!!!

You do follow, and you do pick up. Where do you think that ability came from, your own strength? My you credit yourself much.

That would make obedience forced and would prove satan right in saying that God was unable to created a being willing to obey Him.

Nah, there's still angels that obey. Moot point. Try again.

A person who is not born of God, will continue with never fighting the flesh. - Agree. But, even a sinner will fight against things of the flesh which they consider immoral (ex- this or that)

They don't fight against the flesh.

When flesh fights flesh, flesh wins.

Romans 8:7

They just submit to another flesh, instead of pornography, its the pressure their wife places on them.

 

[jimmydiggs]

They dont have to have faith, according to them they are regenerated

The regenerate will have faith.

There are no faithless regenerates, and no faithful unregenerates.

then the Spirit gives them Faith as a fruit.

More than just that, but yes.

ven tho that is totally unbiblical.

So, we regenerate ourselves?

 

[cfultz3]

They dont have to have faith, according to them they are regenerated, then the Spirit gives them Faith as a fruit.
Even tho that is totally unbiblical.

So, all the 'whosoever shall believe' really do not mean that, but means the elite elect? Shoot, let's go party like it is 1999 and let the dice roll as they may.

 

[Abiding]

GOd did give a chance to all. That's just it! The offer of the atonement is universal. The non-elect make their decisions with all the cards on the table. God does not force their wicked freedom of choice in any way. They have everything they need to accept Jesus - but they do not. God bears moral responsibility for creating men exactly the way He created them. God is the judge who, in eternity, decides who is saved and who is damned. Up to this point everyone in this thread is in agreement.



An ominiscient God knew what he was doing at creation - history does not surprise Him. In fact, he is simultaneously present throughout history; not waiting for us to get to the end - He is already standing there - now - just as before Abraham existed He is. The damned are not damned in time, they are damned in eternity. Eternity is not sequenced the same way time is. How can you say that God, in eternity, did not know what would happen when he created? Scripture states plainly that he sees the end from the beginning. What makes you think God needs to wait until a thing is manifested in time to know it? Knowing an event does not force an event. Knowing an event does help you plan. What scriptures indicate that God is changing, growing in knowledge, learning from human history? History unfolded before God in an instant, when He planned the creation. He is not waiting thousands of years to learn how it turns out.

Are there any scriptures that make a distinction between eternity past and eternity future? Past and future temporal references, do they have any meaning when speaking of eternity?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

James 1:16 Be not deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Im not in agreement, with many on this thread. If God chose before the foundation of the world which He did then He did it as He said He did..."In Christ" In otherwords those who received the gospel and got saved. Alot here tell the story a little less biblical. Which spins a different doctrine, with lots of ramifications.

 

[cfultz3]

Jimmy,

Where did this come from, when I was just making a point? You are well educated and do not need to go to this sort of put down.

We will bother, because he has saved us and made us new. If you want a license to sin, then be honest with us. Don't hide it behind theology though. God commands your obedience either way, and you will be brought into judgement.

 

[tdrew777]

"GOd did give a chance to all. That's just it! The offer of the atonement is universal. The non-elect make their decisions with all the cards on the table. God does not force their wicked freedom of choice in any way. They have everything they need to accept Jesus - but they do not. God bears moral responsibility for creating men exactly the way He created them. God is the judge who, in eternity, decides who is saved and who is damned. Up to this point everyone in this thread is in agreement."

Which of the above statements does anyone disagree with?

 

[tdrew777]

Does anyone here make a distinction between eternity past and eternity future? What do the temporal indicators "past" and "future" mean if they are used in an eternal framework?

 

[Abiding]

If God saves a person, they will have faith.


If God has made you his, you will acknowledge him, and he will make you obey. (this does not preclude battles with the flesh)

A person who is not born of God, will continue with never fighting the flesh.

Wrong order

Heb 11: 1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

 

[1still_waters]

Do some disagree with certain ramifications because those ramifications are unbiblical, or because they find said ramifications unpalatable?

Unpalatable ramifications doesn't necessarily mean unbiblical.
Sometimes it IS our job to conform to God's ways.
Keep in mind, many things of God seemed unpalatable to you/me/us at one time or another.

 

[jimmydiggs]

So, all the 'whosoever shall believe' really do not mean that, but means the elite elect?

"Whosever will" does not tell you who will. It just says, if you believe... not, who will believe.

Exegesis sometimes is handy. That, and basic vocabulary.

Shoot, let's go party like it is 1999 and let the dice roll as they may.

So, you're just looking to justify what is in your heart?

 

[cfultz3]

Do some disagree with certain ramifications because those ramifications are unbiblical, or because they find said ramifications unpalatable?

Unpalatable ramifications doesn't necessarily mean unbiblical.
Sometimes it IS our job to conform to God's ways.
Keep in mind, many things of God seemed unpalatable to you/me/us at one time or another.

If you are talking about limit atonement, then I would have to say it is because it is unbibical.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Jimmy,

Where did this come from, when I was just making a point? You are well educated and do not need to go to this sort of put down.

We will bother, because he has saved us and made us new. If you want a license to sin, then be honest with us. Don't hide it behind theology though. God commands your obedience either way, and you will be brought into judgement.

You're the one arguing we don't have to obey God, not me. I am saying Obedience does not create salvation. If a meritorious salvation is the reason you obey, maybe you need another religion. Say, Islam, or modern phariseeical Judaism.