God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

GreenNnice · Feb 27, 2013

True then, we agree, man must still ignite His motivations . There is a reciprocal relationship that's lain out by God's divine plan, there is humanness at work in that plan, and, just like the old covenant, there are faults of man shown in that plan. God knows man will sin, but He knows too that IF, like Paul, he TRUSTS in Christ's finished work on the cross, THAT GRACE is sufficient, this, of course, iz tempered by the Spirit's leading of man's freewill CHOICE to follow Him. Caps for emphasis, nothing more, nothing less, tribers

tribesman · Feb 27, 2013

GreenNnice said:

We agree only in part. There is no 'freewill choice' for example. The saving grace received is irresistable because it is God's doing.

tribesman · Feb 27, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Who said they should be trusted as the Word of God? Not me. All I am saying is that as for early church belief, practice and tradition they serve as a good source.

Can you name some of these churches which share this your belief then? I've studied up on quiet a lot of various church doctrine (more or less had to), millenialism I know well, the particular variant of millenialism you teach I haven't seen before talking to you.

You are right about this in a way. I would not recommend any church just because it happens to have a creed, since there are false creeds out there. It must have the historical creeds plus the creeds of the reformation.

tribesman · Feb 27, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Jesus said "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16). I believe this.

Jesus did everything needed for us to be saved. But for you that means making salvation available to all sinners, conditioned on their "acceptance" of same. For me it means that in the work and person of Jesus Christ alone all conditions were fulfilled, all requirements met, all accepted by God. Not in the sinner.

RickShafer · Mar 5, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

What guys?
I tire of your spirit.
You have called me proud, you have accused me.
Abiding warned me about you when I first joined this sight.
Now I know why.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 5, 2013

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is His will that no man should Perish. How He can appoint some to damnation and others to glory. It is the choice we are given.

RickShafer · Mar 5, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

To 'us-ward', who is Peter writing to? Adolf Hitler? Charles Manson? Or the church?
Why did He "let" them perish? C'mon, He's God.
They decided? Didn't Peter decide to deny Jesus three times on the night Jesus was delivered up? (Why was he saved)
And Judas Iscariot threw the thirty pieces of silver back at the priests repenting for betraying the Lord. Yet he perished.
Esau sought repentance with tears yet never found it.
No, think about it.
God said He raised up Pharaoh to show His(God's) power through him(Pharaoh). - Romans 9 - "For this purpose have I raised you up, that I will show My glory to the gentiles"
Pharaoh died in his trespasses and sins as did Esau and Judas Iscariot. - (The last two sought repentance but
couldn't find it.) - Yet Peter did.
Please explain.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 5, 2013

God does have foreknowledge and knows all things. But if we believe predestination Then why seek, why knock. If I am to be saved its going to be, if damned to hell so be it. Jesus died on the cross for everyone. Just because God knows who will and who won't does not remove my choice. God Knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart and not turn. However He gave him every opportunity to do so. Just like he gives every person. Judas had a choice and so did Peter. It is my choice to follow Jesus.

Why the preach the gospel if those who are chosen are chosen. If they are chosen it will be. Why would God allow people to be born just so he can burn them in hell. It's not biblical nor in God's nature.

RickShafer · Mar 5, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

God does have foreknowledge and knows all things. But if we believe predestination Then why seek, why knock. But Esau did seek, Judas did knock.If I am to be saved its going to be, if damned to hell so be it.Thats the attitude that many have, they recite a "sinners" prayer and go about their business. Jesus died on the cross for everyone. Just because God knows who will and who won't does not remove my choice.So you are saying you are good enough to choose God of your own volition? God Knew that Pharaoh would harden his heart and not turn.No. Read it. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. However He gave him every opportunity to do so.Read it. The Bible clearly states that God Himself hardened Pharaoh's heart.(Exodus 4:21), then read Romans 9:17-"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Just like he gives every person. Judas had a choice and so did Peter.(Judas repented-Threw the 30 pieces back in their teeth; and so did Peter- wept bitterly) It is my choice to follow Jesus. That would be a problem, because if it is left up to you, you won't last against the world, the flesh, and the devil. If it's your choice now, it might not be later without God's grace,(which draws you!)

Why the preach the gospel if those who are chosen are chosen. Why......, why indeed? - (think!)If they are chosen it will be. Why would God allow people to be born just so he can burn them in hell. It's not biblical nor in God's nature(Don't presume upon God's nature, why would you presume upon His nature? Are you God?)
Man, just read my commentaries on T.U.L.I.P. and then say what God thinks.

'Total Depravity' is up now, I will post the rest in order.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 5, 2013

I don't care who tulip is. What did he write, lots of people have wrote many things. I cling to the word. What you believe is what you believe. I see that you are set on this faith. I cannot convince you and nor you me. Seek the Holy Spirit and He will guide.

I guess that you were chosen before the beginning. Aren't you lucky. I hope my children have such luck and yours too. Who knows. I try to teach mine the ways of God . But if has rejected them I guess there is no hope.

PS · Mar 5, 2013

We know about total depravity which is why we should pray for those people with hard and impenitent hearts.

1 Timothy 2
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings should be made for everyone, for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 2.3-5
Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God? Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgement will be revealed.

RickShafer · Mar 5, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

I don't care who tulip is.What did he write, lots of people have wrote many things.(T.U.L.I.P. wasn't written, it is the protestant theology) I cling to the word.(Then you would at least like to see the theology of the reformers who came out from under the religious pomp and dead liturgical circumstance of the roman catholic church) What you believe is what you believe.(No......I didn't always know the truth, I am constantly learning, infact, with what I just answered your posts would have been anathema to me five years ago, but I studied and researched, and learned) I see that you are set on this faith. I cannot convince you and nor you me. Seek the Holy Spirit and He will guide.(Amen, thats the whole point. That's why He gave us His perfect Word.)

I guess that you were chosen before the beginning. Jesus was slain from before the foundations of the world.Aren't you lucky.(Again, I don't presume to know the mind of God.) I hope my children have such luck and yours too.(No luck, and nobody presumes to say they are "chosen") Who knows. I try to teach mine the ways of God .(Bring up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it) But if has rejected them I guess there is no hope.(You are doing your part, and they will not depart from that part you are teaching them. Evangelism is very important, and not 'luck' at all)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 5, 2013

tribesman said:

So do I. But he was talking about 12 men. one of which was a devil and never was saved.. not about salvation

Yes he did. because he is the ONLY ONE WHO COULD.

that is because you do not understand faith.

faith is not a work. Unless we have faith in self, and not the completed work of christ. and even then it is not a work itself, Faith is self will lead to trying to work to earn the gift God gave us (because of a lack of faith in Christ)

All people who do not recieve Christ have faith in self.

Athiests have faith in self, they are their own God
legalists have faith in selkf, thus they try to work to earn salvation
Liscentious have faith in self. They make their own rules of what is sin and what is not.

only those who trust in the FINISHED work of Christ are saved..Not because they worked to earnit, But because they DID NOT WORK, and received the gift God offered them.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 5, 2013

Rick in Christ I love you, after your last post, I'm not sure what you are trying to propose. I came to Jesus because the Holy Spirit pulled me. I have relatives that say the same, but they refused. The choice was theirs and they continue in sin.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 5, 2013

RickShafer said:

How does this answer my response?

as does your insistance not to answer real problems with your belief..

No they don't, And scripture does not say this. The pharisees did not boast in their faith in god, they boasted of their righteounses (good works) they even though and taught God called them because of the righteousness of their forefathers, which romans 9 completely debunks.

No one boasts of faith iin god (takes credit) they can;t because they did nothing to EARN IT.

lol.. You mean my good friend abiding??

I tire of the same arguments and the same false accusations also.. But it is not about me,k it is about God and his character.

RickShafer · Mar 5, 2013

Their lives aren't over yet. God is showing them His works in your life. - (But they are His works, and not your own).
As their sin catches up with them they will look to you more and more. - (This again, is the work of the Lord)
You said it, - you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit pulled you.
That's the only way. Jesus said that no man comes to Him unless the Father first draws him.
So God the Father drew you, and you responded.
And they heard the same Word and rejected Him. - This is the importance of evangelism, Jesus said "let your light
so shine before men, that they see your good works and glorify Him".
So you say it is a choice. But you just said the Holy Spirit drew you.
Who can know God unless He reveals Himself to them?
This is the importance of evangelizing.
Because people haven't heard, and the only way for God to deal with them in Spirit and in Truth is through the Word.
The work is His.
We are the vessels. He called Himself the potter for a good reason, He molds us.
(Do you say because we want Him to?)
Have you ever been reshaped? Do you think that is something you would choose to do out of your own volition?
No.......it is the gift of God that makes you pliable, and willing to be spinning on the wheel as an earthen wet clay vessel,
being willing to be molded into the image of Jesus Christ. (That is a work of God the Father......because you'd never agree
to it if left to your own device.)

eternally-gratefull · Mar 5, 2013

RickShafer said:

thats the problem. No one I know denies the HS drew them. The issue is not this. But who does the HS draw?

I have seen many a people drawn on toward God, many people work. Many signs a person should have seen, Some of whihc had to be supernatural (healings etc) which only a fool could deny this was the HS at work drawing this person to god.

yet they never acted on the drawing and came to Christ, they continued to make excuses.. even saying they admit they need God and without him they are doomed, but "just not ready" or whatever excuse they could have.

God works in different ways in different people. it does not mean they will EVERY TRUST THEM

Again to the old addage, MANY are called, FEW are chosen. thus we get to the point, why are they chosen? some random equation? or because they trusted the gospel? while the manny called who did not get chosen, Did not trust the gospel.

which is WHAT scripture says happened.

tribesman · Mar 5, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

Let's see if we can get somewhere here. Faith is quite a few things...it's a gift, its a fruit of the Spirit and it is commanded (Mark 1:14-15). Yes, we are commanded to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. To profess and confess Christ is something that you do. There's no way around this, friend. Now, I am sure you will say that only saved persons can keep the commandments of God in such a way that pleases God? So, why you exclude this one?

We agree 100% here as both of us already know.

Yep. And that work alone is what condition the salvation of God's people.

Where we disagree here is at what point in the salvation equation they received same.

drjshow · Mar 5, 2013

Choices to be made on both sides. As someone said earlier, God has made his: Salvation free and available for all. God reaches to us, just as we reach for him (often without even knowing). For most of us here, we felt his pull and try to answer on a daily basis. For some, they feel the pull and choose not to answer. God loves us, and wants us to love him (As Jesus said, that law was the most important). Unfortunately, we don't always answer as we should...such is the nature of sinful man. So God provides forgiveness, grace, and salvation. No one (leave the Messiah) is saved from inception. The rest of us fight a daily battle.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 5, 2013

tribesman said:

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
Faith is never called a gift. what are the gits God has given us? Salvation (eph) Eternal life (romans) Justification (rom 5) not one mention of faith being a gift (although it is based on a gift offered us)

as for faith being a command, and a good work.. A work is something you do in with you recieve payment, or reward based on what you have done. what did I do to earn salvation? Nothing. I trusted in anothers work. You keep saying this is a work, but scripture says otherwise.
grace and works can not mix.. And since we are saved by faith through grace,, then faith can not be a work according to the biblical definition.

agreed 100 %

not sure what you mean, recieved what?

God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

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