Is abortion murder?

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superdave5221 said:
So, are you now saying that it is "democratically elected governments", that decide morality, rather than God?.
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Yes, that's what I'm saying, but without "rather than God"! Because God installed and empowered all governments! God supports all governments in this world, even the government of North Corea, Iran and Simbabwe and even the former government of Hitler Germany and the Soviet Union God supported in that time for a while!

superdave5221 said:
In other words, for you, is morality relative? Are there moral absolutes that God, who is the Creator, has established by the Word of His power?
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Please discard "morality". There is no "morality". There is God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God and there is Law, but there is nothing such as "morality"!

superdave5221 said:
By the way, your defense of murder didn't work at Nuremburg.
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It worked. The old government did not persecute them but the new government did and with power!
 
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Yeah bro they are called miscarriages or spontaneous abortions...its an actual medical term. Many women have them within the first month of pregnancy aka before they even have a clue they are pregnant or have any symptoms.

" Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy. The rate of miscarriage drops after the baby's heart beat is detected."

Miscarriage - PubMed Health

I guess all i have to say now is... Science its still useful
 
By the way:

Can you find a single use of the word "moral" or "morality" in the Holy Bible except this one?

[SUP]James 1:21 [/SUP]Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.


Probably the word "moral" was invented by the devil to deceive you! :)
 
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in-God-we-trust said:
Yes, that's what I'm saying, but without "rather than God"! Because God installed and empowered all governments! God supports all governments in this world, even the government of North Corea, Iran and Simbabwe and even the former government of Hitler Germany and the Soviet Union God supported in that time for a while!
Please discard "morality". There is no "morality". There is God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God and there is Law, but there is nothing such as "morality"!


It worked. The old government did not persecute them but the new government did and with power!
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Yes, God allows goverments to legislate immoral laws in the present, but eventually, He will judge those governments based on his absolute Laws, which are moral laws, whether you like it or not.

As per your understanding, the Hitler goverment was judged, a new government was instituted, which then judged the immoral laws of it's predecessor and those who executed them.

Is judgement coming for the United States, which authorizes the murder of over a million babies a year?

The bible is full of the history of societies, which God allowed to exist in immorality for a time, until the effects of their lawlessness became full, and then they were judged.

I am not judging your salvation, because that is between you and God. However, your arguments show a tremendous lack of discernment, biblical illiteracy, and a hardness of heart dulling the Spirit of Christ, which would have to be necessary to justify murder in your own mind.
 
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Nautilus said:
Yeah bro they are called miscarriages or spontaneous abortions...its an actual medical term. Many women have them within the first month of pregnancy aka before they even have a clue they are pregnant or have any symptoms.

" Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy. The rate of miscarriage drops after the baby's heart beat is detected."

Miscarriage - PubMed Health

I guess all i have to say now is... Science its still useful
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In #457 you said between 50 and 70%.
 
Nautilus said:
ok and it says about half in the first sentence I quoted. I got the 50-70% from Neil deGrasse Tyson(American astrophysicist and science communicator. He is currently the Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the Rose Center for Earth and Space and a research associate in the department of astrophysics at the American Museum of Natural History.) So also a very reliable source.
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So, we have two reliable sources. One says 15-20% and the other says 50-70%. Hmm. And you consider BOTH of them to be reliable?

Do me a favor. Look in the mirror, and tell yourself that what you said is reasonable.
 
superdave5221 said:
I am not judging your salvation, because that is between you and God. However, your arguments show a tremendous lack of discernment, biblical illiteracy, and a hardness of heart dulling the Spirit of Christ, which would have to be necessary to justify murder in your own mind.
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Look, at least you are trying not to judge and that in the most important aspect, the salvation. Otherwise I could accuse you of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

But what else than judgement is the following: "Your arguments show a tremendous lack of discernment, biblical illiteracy, and a hardness of heart dulling the Spirit of Christ"?

Why do you explicitly disobey Jesus? Because He said:

Matthew 7:7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.[SUP] [/SUP]For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I am bringing arguments to underline my opinion. Did I ever judge your opinion? Where are your arguments which support your opinion?


I wonder how your "moral" handles this which was explicitly the will of God:

1 Samuel 15:1Samuel said to Saul,
“I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king
over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2This is what the
Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the
Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up
from Egypt. 3Now go, attack the
Amalekites and totally destroy[SUP]a[/SUP] everything that belongs to them. Do not
spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep,
camels and donkeys.’”
 
superdave5221 said:
Do me a favor. Look in the mirror, and tell yourself that what you said is reasonable.
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Who do you think you are, that you dare to attack anybody in this forum that has another opinion than you have? Why not look into the mirror yourself?

Maybe to listen to the song "man in the mirror" by Michael Jackson would be no bad idea for you!
 
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superdave5221 said:
So, we have two reliable sources. One says 15-20% and the other says 50-70%. Hmm. And you consider BOTH of them to be reliable?

Do me a favor. Look in the mirror, and tell yourself that what you said is reasonable.
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you clearly are lacking reading comprehension skills in this.

Quote 1 from the website: " Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy. The rate of miscarriage drops after the baby's heart beat is detected."

Quote 2 from deGrasse Tyson: Most abortions are spontaneous and they happen naturally within the human body. Most women who have such an abortion never even know it because it happens in the first month. It's very, very common. In fact 50-70% of pregnancies end this way.

ok so if one source says half are lost before a women knows she is pregnant (half is 50%) and the other source says 50% end this way in the first month....hmmm I wonder how tough this is to understand. They are both saying the exact same thing, but from some reason youre focusing on a number that only deals with women once they know they are pregnant. Not before the knowledge which is what both quotes are dealing with. Tyson maybe giving a wider range going up to 70% but they both hit the 50% number.
 
in-God-we-trust said:
Look, at least you are trying not to judge and that in the most important aspect, the salvation. Otherwise I could accuse you of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

But what else than judgement is the following: "Your arguments show a tremendous lack of discernment, biblical illiteracy, and a hardness of heart dulling the Spirit of Christ"?

Why do you explicitly disobey Jesus? Because He said:

Matthew 7:7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I am bringing arguments to underline my opinion. Did I ever judge your opinion? Where are your arguments which support your opinion?


I wonder how your "moral" handles this which was explicitly the will of God:

1 Samuel 15:1Samuel said to Saul,
“I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king
over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2This is what the
Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the
Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up
from Egypt. 3Now go, attack the
Amalekites and totally destroy[SUP]a[/SUP] everything that belongs to them. Do not
spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep,
camels and donkeys.’”
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I am sorry if I offended you. However, the stakes are too high to even risk complicity with your opinions.

You err, when you say that we are not to judge one another. Read 1 Corinthians 5 and see what Paul has to say about it. We are to judge righteously those brothers and sisters who we have Christian fellowship with, as well as confessing our sins to one another in love.

I feel safe in judging the opinion that God's Law has no moral attribute to it, as you claim. God's Law reflects His nature, and as such His Morality.

Such an opinion could be forgiven as naive, except for the fact that I have never heard such an opinion expressed among Christians, not EVER. To be a Christian is to acknowledge God's Supreme Moral Law, and to set a pattern of obedience to God's law, even if that means disobeying man's law. Why do you think that Steven was stoned? Should he have obeyed the law of the land? What about Peter when he was flogged because he disobeyed the Sanhedrin, (the Jewish Law of the land), claiming that he had to obey God, not man, (Acts 4:19).

Perhaps you should read Fox's book of martyrs, in which numerous Christians, including all of the apostles except John, who died disobeying man, (instituted by God you say), because they had to obey God instead.

What is amazing is that of all of the considered agnostic intellectuals, who are considered very intelligent by man's standards, do not use your argument that if God exists, then His morality exists also.

Such an argument is unreasonable and defies logic.

If I have judged unrighteously, then God will judge my motive, which I believe is pure.

Please consider your motive in believing the way that you do. I wish you no ill will, only that God will open your heart to the truth, and mine as well.
 
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in-God-we-trust said:
Who do you think you are, that you dare to attack anybody in this forum that has another opinion than you have? Why not look into the mirror yourself?

Maybe to listen to the song "man in the mirror" by Michael Jackson would be no bad idea for you!
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If you are so thin skinned as to believe this was a personal attack, perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself. It will be a lot safer.
 
OK, I accept your halfway apology. I also do apologyse if I wronged you or anybody else. I think that as members of Christ Jesus we should talk with each other in a friendly manner not accusing one another rashly of heresy or so. Maybe we have some differences but the main thing is that we agree in Christ Jesus and in the Holy Spirit. We both do believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God!

BTW: Much of your writing I could not understand maybe because you are higher educated in the standards of man or because you follow a certain doctrine or church.

superdave5221 said:
You err, when you say that we are not to judge one another. Read 1 Corinthians 5 and see what Paul has to say about it. We are to judge righteously those brothers and sisters who we have Christian fellowship with, as well as confessing our sins to one another in love.
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I read it. Yes, in such extreme situations, if someone calling himself your brother explicitly blasphemes God or has sexual relations with his mother, I agree one shuld strongly rebuke that man.

And put it in relation to today! That was almost 2000 years ago! Can we compare that time one to one with today? Keep in mind, they were pioneers, a few thousand Christians among hundreds of millions of unbelievers. Today we are about 2 billion Christians among 5 billion unbelievers!


superdave5221 said:
Why do you think that Steven was stoned? Should he have obeyed the law of the land? What about Peter when he was flogged because he disobeyed the Sanhedrin, (the Jewish Law of the land), claiming that he had to obey God, not man, (Acts 4:19).
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Why was Steven stoned? Yes, because he dared to speak out what nobody wanted to hear! He did not do anything against authority! He just told the truth!

Where did I say that you are not allowed to speak against abortion? Please speak as loudly as you can against abortion if you think abortion is not right, please! Yes, and if they kill you for that you will be like Steven, you will be called first in the Kingdom of Heaven!


Mere speaking is no disobedience against government or against God! Only doing something against their will is disobedience!

[SUP]Matthew 21:28 [/SUP]“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
 
superdave5221 said:
If you are so thin skinned as to believe this was a personal attack, perhaps you should keep your opinions to yourself. It will be a lot safer.
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:)
No, I am not so thin skinned as you think. I will not follow your advice to keep silent, but will voice my opinion as loud as I can. And if you stone me for that I will rejoice! :)
 
Nautilus said:
Most abortions are spontaneous and they happen naturally within the human body. Most women who have such an abortion never even know it because it happens in the first month. It's very, very common. In fact 50-70% of pregnancies end this way.
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Yet a miscarriage is far different than an induced abortion. One is beyond the mothers control. The other is forced.
 
Nautilus said:
you clearly are lacking reading comprehension skills in this.

Quote 1 from the website: " Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy. The rate of miscarriage drops after the baby's heart beat is detected."

Quote 2 from deGrasse Tyson: Most abortions are spontaneous and they happen naturally within the human body. Most women who have such an abortion never even know it because it happens in the first month. It's very, very common. In fact 50-70% of pregnancies end this way.

ok so if one source says half are lost before a women knows she is pregnant (half is 50%) and the other source says 50% end this way in the first month....hmmm I wonder how tough this is to understand. They are both saying the exact same thing, but from some reason youre focusing on a number that only deals with women once they know they are pregnant. Not before the knowledge which is what both quotes are dealing with. Tyson maybe giving a wider range going up to 70% but they both hit the 50% number.
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I came here to quote Neil deGrasse Tyson as well, but you beat me to it my friend :)
 
Elizabeth619 said:
Yet a miscarriage is far different than an induced abortion. One is beyond the mothers control. The other is forced.
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Right. One is "god's" abortion, the other is the mother's. So since god is doing it, does that give us the ok to go?
 
in-God-we-trust said:
Luke 23 [SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

I'm sorry to say, but obviously you are not (yet) a Christian.
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in-God-we-trust said:
Yes, that's what I'm saying, but without "rather than God"! Because God installed and empowered all governments! God supports all governments in this world, even the government of North Corea, Iran and Simbabwe and even the former government of Hitler Germany and the Soviet Union God supported in that time for a while!
Please discard "morality". There is no "morality". There is God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom of God and there is Law, but there is nothing such as "morality"!


It worked. The old government did not persecute them but the new government did and with power!
Click to expand...

In the 1st century the apostles were imprisoned and killed for breaking the law. They were told by Jesus to spread the Gospel. Roman emperors persecuted many because Christians would not bow to them.
Should the apostles, and primitive Christians have gone against Jesus, and obeyed the law instead of preaching the Word?
 
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