(Pre) Millennialism/Chiliaism

[zone]

1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?

The body of Christ is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul. The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord. When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.

The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.

okay, so:

The body of Christ [which] is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul.

does this Mid-Acts body of Christ include any Jews?

The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord.

so the Mid-Acts body of Christ goes to heaven and remains there for all eternity?
who is on earth during the tribulation?

When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom.

alright.
so all the Jews (every single Israelite who descended from Abraham?) will live on this earth, in their own Kingdom for all eternity, while the Mid-Acts body of Christ is in heaven for all eternity?



[i think you have addressed this later on, but my obvious question would be: who gets to have Jesus visibly actually present with them - the Mid-Acts body of Christ in heaven, or the Jews in their eternal earth Kingdom?]

Laa, could you please tell me which study bible you are using, and what other sources?
aslo, did you say you stopped attending church?
zone

 

[zone]

1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?

When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.

The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.

k:


When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom.


so do you have any other reason for determining that Jews will have an earthly Kingdom while a Mid-Acts body of Christ is a heavenly Kingdom, other than your interpretation of dust (earth) and stars (heaven)?


Genesis 13
14The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward, 15for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever. 16I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted. 17Arise, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you.” 18So Abram moved his tent and came and settled by the oaksb of Mamre, which are at Hebron, and there he built an altar to the LORD.

don't you think The Lord is just saying there will be so many offspring no one could number them?
Solomon said it had to do with numbers of people.

2 Chronicles 1:9
O LORD God, let your word to David my father be now fulfilled, for you have made me king over a people as numerous as the dust of the earth.


Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.


well...kinda:


Genesis 22
9When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” 12He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14So Abraham called the name of that place, “The LORD will provide”;b as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”c

15And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” 19So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.


this is about Jesus, and it is about the Promise of everlasting life, for all who are of faith:

I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”


but was it not Promised to Abraham and his descendants for real?
those who had faith?

what does this mean?:


The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom.


don't the faithful Jews of either era ever get to be part of the heavenly Kingdom?
why not?
what was so different about the Mid-Acts body of Christ?
was it because they were Gentiles?


There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.


okay...so at this point the Mid-Acts body of Christ has gone to the heavenly Kingdom?
and there are unsaved Gentiles and Jews on earth.
144,000 Jews get saved (how? how do they get saved?) during the tribulation (which i have no clue what it is)....and they:


spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. ?


what's that gospel? how is it different from the one the heavenly people were saved by?
where do you see that in the Bible?
how do they go about spreading it to the world?
so i presume Jews and Gentiles who get saved during this time are saved by Mosaic Law and faith?
faith in what?
what happens to people who aren't saved by this gospel?


Laa, this is way out there.
way way out there.
but, i'd like to know what you are using to learn from. because this is going to become a steel trap for your mind, and it will be very hard to come out of.
i'm not kidding.

but anyways.....i hope to keep talking to you.
do you have anyone you are studying or fellowshipping with at this time?

zone

 

[psychomom]

I don't know how to say this (other than bluntly), so here goes---

as long as a person is blinded by dual-covenant theology, it's just about impossible to see beyond futurism.

the first lie has to go before the second...or maybe that was just me?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Here's What Happens Before, During and After the Coming Millennium


1) there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth

could you post just what you believe on this part?

and if you would please provide a couple of the passages which you believe proves there will be a Golden Age, or Paradise on Earth (before eternity)?

i guess one thing i would want to know is if the curse is removed for that time, so that it is Paradise.
also, does something go wrong later, because it does turn out badly again for awhile at the end of the exactly 1,000 years to the second (from the moment Jesus arrives), right?

anyways - what do you mean a Golden Age? do people die?
how are they saved? are people receiving punishment according to Mosaic Law?

why is it a Golden Age? will there be a Temple? is it the Temple described by John in Revelation (New Jerusalem)? or some other temple?

t.y.
4)

could you post the passages which describe the future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth)

ty.

Sorry for the delay. . . Work and other things

Paradise and the new heaven and new earth: There is a great correlation between Paradise (Eden) in Genesis 2:4-4:26 and Rev. 1:7, 22:1-5. Genesis 2:24 . . placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword to keep the way of the tree of life - end of original paradise.

Revelation 22:3 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: ---- the curse which drove man out shall no longer keep him out but shall be "no more" for ever - Paradise restored.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The desciption in Revelation 22:1-5 is of paradise, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

What makes this study sooo difficult is that none of this is in chronological order!

But I have found out one tremendous truth. . . .I don't believe ANYONE has the full revelation of the Apocalypse (Revelation). . . we only scratch the surface!

bbl

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Sorry for the delay. . . Work and other things

Paradise and the new heaven and new earth: There is a great correlation between Paradise (Eden) in Genesis 2:4-4:26 and Rev. 1:7, 22:1-5. Genesis 2:24 . . placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword to keep the way of the tree of life - end of original paradise.

Revelation 22:3 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: ---- the curse which drove man out shall no longer keep him out but shall be "no more" for ever - Paradise restored.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The desciption in Revelation 22:1-5 is of paradise, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

What makes this study sooo difficult is that none of this is in chronological order!

But I have found out one tremendous truth. . . .I don't believe ANYONE has the full revelation of the Apocalypse (Revelation). . . we only scratch the surface!

bbl

P.S. Looking further concerning the temple. . . .

 

[zone]

Sorry for the delay. . . Work and other things

Paradise and the new heaven and new earth: There is a great correlation between Paradise (Eden) in Genesis 2:4-4:26 and Rev. 1:7, 22:1-5. Genesis 2:24 . . placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword to keep the way of the tree of life - end of original paradise.

Revelation 22:3 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: ---- the curse which drove man out shall no longer keep him out but shall be "no more" for ever - Paradise restored.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The desciption in Revelation 22:1-5 is of paradise, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

What makes this study sooo difficult is that none of this is in chronological order!

bbl

P.S. Looking further concerning the temple. . . .

hi peaceful...okay to the eternal state, above (New Jerusalem).

so i'm hoping you will describe and document what happens here (before the eternal state, the world to come):

Millennialism (from millennium, Latin for "thousand years"), or chiliasm in Greek, is a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1–6. Millennialism as such is a specific form of Millenarianism.

a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth).



see how you have Christ reigning for 1000 years prior to the eternal state, the world to come of the New Heavens and the New Earth?

let's leave the eternal state, New Jerusalem and the World to Come for now. i agree that is in the future


could we just talk about that 1,000 year period between the Second Advent and the world to come, the eternal state?

thank you
zone

edit:

"P.S. Looking further concerning the temple. . . ."

okay....which temple? because we know in the eternal state there isn't one:

Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

so there has to be a temple for the 1,000 years, right?
when does that get built?
could i see passages on it.
are animals sacrificed there?
is it in Jerusalem which now is?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

hi peaceful...okay to the eternal state, above (New Jerusalem).

so i'm hoping you will describe and document what happens here (before the eternal state, the world to come):

a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth).

see how you have Christ reigning for 1000 years prior to the eternal state, the world to come of the New Heavens and the New Earth?

let's leave the eternal state, New Jerusalem and the World to Come for now. i agree that is in the future


could we just talk about that 1,000 year period between the Second Advent and the world to come, the eternal state?

thank you
zone

Okay.

edit:

"P.S. Looking further concerning the temple. . . ."

okay....which temple? because we know in the eternal state there isn't one:

Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

I agree, just had to read the whole context to make sure.

so there has to be a temple for the 1,000 years, right?
when does that get built?
could i see passages on it.
are animals sacrificed there?
is it in Jerusalem which now is?

Okay. . .after reading the whole of Revelations. . .I realize I better be careful of what I say to make sure that I do not add nor take away from this prophecy.

I am sure you can agree that at the battle of Armageddon, everything on earth is destroyed. I believe that the 1,000 year Millenium would fall after the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the just. If we run "new heavens and new earth" there comes up something in Isaiah 65:17 - at first I thought it was speaking of Revelation 21:1 BUT I noticed it mentioned death, nor will they bear children to be doomed to misfortune. . .we know that in the "new heavens and new earth" brought about in Revelation - death will be destroyed, so . . it is possible that this new heaven and new earth was created after everything was destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. . something to think about?

I have read so much stuff. . .so I am going to leave it at this because I don't know everything and for me to put it on this thread and be responsible for what I say and it MAYBE not be truth. . .can't do it!

I can say what I believe and the order in which I believe things will occur: #1 there will be a rapture of the church the body of Christ before or at the same time the Tribulation period begins; #2 7 years of tribulation; #3 battle of Armageddon; #4 judgment and resurrection of the Just; #5 beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev. 19:19,20) 1,000 year millenial period, devil chained and bound; #6 Devil loosed to deceive those he can; #7 Devil thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone; #8 the rest of the dead raised and judged by works; #9 New heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem.

This is what I believe.

 

[RickyZ]

I didn't read your posts Zone I know what you believe and I'm not interested in being demolished. Frankly I'm not really even interested in the 1000 years anymore. But this is from a post I just made on my own thread that kinda boils it down:

*

The world we live in is in chaos. World governments teeter on oppression and collapse. People are rude, arrogant and offensive, just as likely to curse on you as give you the time of day. The people follow ever 'less offensive' forms of religion, as true Christianity becomes seen as less acceptable to the palate, and charlotains arise calling "over here over here". Love has gone cold, even upon these pages, as threads go back and forth intent on proving selves right instead of finding communal truths. Satan's minions run roughshod over believer's families, prompting endless prayer requests for relationships and lives in shatters. Drugs, divorce, and promiscuity run rampant even among those here on these pages. Evil runs freely thru the streets and is on the increase.

It pains me, literally pains me, to hear some on these pages ascribe these things as being appropriate for a land and people under the rule of Jesus. It's like fingernails on the freakin' chalkboard. I don't care what your string of verses says, read what the prayer requests say. Look long and hard at the world beyond your noses. And be careful when you ascribe these things to the rule of God, for to do so is heresy and blaspheme.

I don't care about the 1000 years, honestly, I'd just as soon we cut to the chase and move on from this land. But God has put it upon my heart and soul to bring these words. For His rule is perfect, and to be shared with no one, especially satan.

Be careful when you tie the two together.

 

[Elizabeth619]

[SUP]31 [/SUP]You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.[SUP]32 [/SUP]He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,[SUP]33 [/SUP]and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” Luke 1:31-33
The angel is telling Mary she will give birth to Jesus, and says he will reign forever.(future event, he is not even born yet)
[SUP]


2 [/SUP]and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” Matt 2:2
Jesus is now born and the wise men arrive, and ask where is the one who HAS BEEN BORN KING(present, as in now)
If Jesus' reign is thousands of years later then why did the wise men ask "who HAS been born king?" If Jesus was to be king later on they would have put it in a future tense, and not present. Wouldn't is say "who is born to be king" instead?... but it doesn't. His FIRST coming is the result of him being King. Not the second.

Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey. Zech 9:9
Prophecy saying the king would ride in on donkey. Matthew 21 shows Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”Matt 28:18-20
Jesus says he has ALL AUTHORITY. If he wasn't King then how can he have all authority?

The Great Commission was given by which we are saved is based on Jesus with present and ALL AUTHORITY. To deny this is undermining the validity of salvation.

Psalm 110 says the King will sit at the RIGHT HAND of God.
[SUP]64 [/SUP]“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven. Matt 26:64, also Mark 14:62 and Luke 22:69


[SUP]30 [/SUP]But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. [SUP]32 [/SUP]God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.[SUP]33 [/SUP]Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. [SUP]34 [/SUP]For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
[SUP]35 [/SUP]until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]36 [/SUP]“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah. Acts 2:30-36

V30 - David knew God had sworn to set his descendant on David's throne.
V31 - Foreseeing this would happen, David spoke of the resurrection of Jesus. The prophecy of Christ on David's throne was fulfilled in Jesus' resurrection, not at the second coming!
Vv 33,34 - Peter quotes Psalm 110:1 and said Jesus is now exalted at God's right hand (position of authority). But he was to ruleat God's right hand. Hence, He is now king at God's right hand, just as Psalm 110:1,2 prophesied.
V36 - The conclusion is that Jesus has been made both Lord and Christ. "Lord" means ruler, one possessing authority. "Christ" means "anointed one." Hence, Peter is claiming Jesus has been anointed to be ruler. And the proof of this is David's prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, including the prophecy of reigning at God's right hand.

 

[zone]

Okay.

I agree, just had to read the whole context to make sure.

Okay. . .after reading the whole of Revelations. . .I realize I better be careful of what I say to make sure that I do not add nor take away from this prophecy.

I am sure you can agree that at the battle of Armagaeddon, everything on earth is destroyed. I believe that the 1,000 year Millenium would fall after the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the just. If we run "new heavens and new earth" there comes up something in Isaiah 65:17 - at first I thought it was speaking of Revelation 21:1 BUT I noticed it mentioned death, nor will they bear children to be doomed to misfortune. . .we know that in the "new heavens and new earth" brought about in Revelation - death will be destroyed, so . . it is possible that this new heaven and new earth was created after everything was destroyed at the battle of Armageddon. . something to think about?

I have read so much stuff. . .so I am going to leave it at this because I don't know everything and for me to put it on this thread and be responsible for what I say and it MAYBE not be truth. . .can't do it!

I can say what I believe and the order in which I believe things will occur: #1 there will be a rapture of the church the body of Christ before or at the same time the Tribulation period begins; #2 7 years of tribulation; #3 battle of Armageddon; #4 judgment and resurrection of the Just; #5 beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone (Rev. 19:19,20) 1,000 year millenial period, devil chained and bound; #6 Devil loosed to deceive those he can; #7 Devil thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone; #8 the rest of the dead raised and judged by works; #9 New heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem.

This is what I believe.

hi peaceful.
thanks for posting.
consider this version.
far too simplistic, but anyways:


Adam failed - all fell with him - death comes in - all come short of Glory with God in both communion and eternal life.
all die, all sin.
OT saints saved by grace through faith (finding favor in the sight of; receiving Mercy from the Lord)
not receiving or seeing Jesus yet - The Captain; Pioneer; Author of their Eternal Salvation
Law brought in because of transgressions
God's Righteousness and Justice revealed for all the world
all shown to be shut up under disobedience under the Law
Law can not save - shows man's sin problem - shows Jesus (Salvation) in types and shadows
OT saints still being saved by grace through faith (finding favor in the sight of; receiving Mercy from the Lord)
a New Covenant Promised, fault found with Holy, Righteous Old Covenant, because man has broken the Law,
Law can not save.


New Testament
consider this using your own events - i wouldn't describe them the same way, but that's fine - using some of your terms:


First Advent - Jesus born King, made Priest
confirms New Covenant Promises to Israel
fills up and fulfills the Righteous Requirements of The Law where all men have failed, beginning with Adam.
Succeeds where Adam failed.
Crucified, accomplished eternal Salvation once for all (including OT saints saved by grace through faith)
Sins Atoned for, debt paid.
fulfillment of and end of Old Covenant
New Covenant Messianic/Salvation Age
devil chained and bound - symbolic for his disarming - not allowed to muster final global war
Jesus' Resurrection is the First Resurrection
Gospel to Israel and some gentiles
Jesus Ascended, is Ruling
Pentecost - Gospel to the world - new births - partakers in first resurrection (spiritual raising)
symbolic 1,000 year period (Messianic/Salvation Age) - unknown length of time
souls of christians dying in the Lord enter His presence, no danger of second death
end symbolic 1,000 year period (coming close of Age, a short space left)
Devil loosed to deceive those he can (a short space, little season)
battle of Armageddon
Second Advent
false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone
resurrection and judgment (believers not judged, unbelievers judged)
Devil thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone
New heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem - eternal state
no temple, The LORD Our Righteousness is There.
all saints from all ages with the Lord eternally.



k....summink like that.
prolly missed a bunch and prolly wrong
so don't accept any of it without checking.
ttyl....zone

 

[zone]

I didn't read your posts Zone I know what you believe and I'm not interested in being demolished. Frankly I'm not really even interested in the 1000 years anymore. But this is from a post I just made on my own thread that kinda boils it down:

*

The world we live in is in chaos. World governments teeter on oppression and collapse. People are rude, arrogant and offensive, just as likely to curse on you as give you the time of day. The people follow ever 'less offensive' forms of religion, as true Christianity becomes seen as less acceptable to the palate, and charlotains arise calling "over here over here". Love has gone cold, even upon these pages, as threads go back and forth intent on proving selves right instead of finding communal truths. Satan's minions run roughshod over believer's families, prompting endless prayer requests for relationships and lives in shatters. Drugs, divorce, and promiscuity run rampant even among those here on these pages. Evil runs freely thru the streets and is on the increase.

It pains me, literally pains me, to hear some on these pages ascribe these things as being appropriate for a land and people under the rule of Jesus. It's like fingernails on the freakin' chalkboard. I don't care what your string of verses says, read what the prayer requests say. Look long and hard at the world beyond your noses. And be careful when you ascribe these things to the rule of God, for to do so is heresy and blaspheme.

I don't care about the 1000 years, honestly, I'd just as soon we cut to the chase and move on from this land. But God has put it upon my heart and soul to bring these words. For His rule is perfect, and to be shared with no one, especially satan.

Be careful when you tie the two together.

so is satan running the world then?
the universe also?
what's God doing?
bye now.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

hi peaceful.
thanks for posting.
consider this version.
far too simplistic, but anyways:


Adam failed - all fell with him - death comes in - all come short of Glory with God in both communion and eternal life.
all die, all sin.
OT saints saved by grace through faith (finding favor in the sight of; receiving Mercy from the Lord)
not receiving or seeing Jesus yet - The Captain; Pioneer; Author of their Eternal Salvation
Law brought in because of transgressions
God's Righteousness and Justice revealed for all the world
all shown to be shut up under disobedience under the Law
Law can not save - shows man's sin problem - shows Jesus (Salvation) in types and shadows
OT saints still being saved by grace through faith (finding favor in the sight of; receiving Mercy from the Lord)
a New Covenant Promised, fault found with Holy, Righteous Old Covenant, because man has broken the Law,
Law can not save.


New Testament
consider this using your own events - i wouldn't describe them the same way, but that's fine - using some of your terms:


First Advent - Jesus born King, made Priest
confirms New Covenant Promises to Israel
fills up and fulfills the Righteous Requirements of The Law where all men have failed, beginning with Adam.
Succeeds where Adam failed.
Crucified, accomplished eternal Salvation once for all (including OT saints saved by grace through faith)
Sins Atoned for, debt paid.
fulfillment of and end of Old Covenant
New Covenant Messianic/Salvation Age
devil chained and bound - symbolic for his disarming - not allowed to muster final global war
Jesus' Resurrection is the First Resurrection
Gospel to Israel and some gentiles
Jesus Ascended, is Ruling
Pentecost - Gospel to the world - new births - partakers in first resurrection (spiritual raising)
symbolic 1,000 year period (Messianic/Salvation Age) - unknown length of time
souls of christians dying in the Lord enter His presence, no danger of second death
end symbolic 1,000 year period (coming close of Age, a short space left)
Devil loosed to deceive those he can (a short space, little season)
battle of Armageddon
Second Advent
false prophet thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone
resurrection and judgment (believers not judged, unbelievers judged)
Devil thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone
New heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem - eternal state
no temple, The LORD Our Righteousness is There.
all saints from all ages with the Lord eternally.



k....summink like that.
prolly missed a bunch and prolly wrong
so don't accept any of it without checking.

ttyl....zone

Basically, we agree on a lot of things - just maybe the order is different. The only thing that we disagree on is the millenium. If we are in the millenium now. . .which you believe we are - then apparently the 1,000 years is not literal? Satan can not deceive? When was he destroyed?

 

[1still_waters]

so is satan running the world then?
the universe also?
what's God doing?
bye now.

Which of the following is Biblical?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “No authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “Some authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[SUP][d][/SUP]


[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore[SUP][c][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen

 

[zone]

Basically, we agree on a lot of things - just maybe the order is different. The only thing that we disagree on is the millenium. If we are in the millenium now. . .which you believe we are - then apparently the 1,000 years is not literal? Satan can not deceive? When was he destroyed?

First Advent
New Covenant Messianic/Salvation Age
Gospel to Israel and some gentiles
devil chained and bound - symbolic for his disarming - not allowed to muster final global war
Jesus' Resurrection is the First Resurrection
Jesus Ascended, is Ruling
Pentecost - Gospel to the nations (satan not allowed to destroy Church, stop salvation)
men being saved - new births - partakers in first resurrection (spiritual raising) - receiving eternal life
symbolic 1,000 year period (Messianic/Salvation Age) - unknown length of time
Gospel to the world (satan not allowed to destroy Church, stop salvation)
end symbolic 1,000 year period (coming close of Age, a short space left)
Devil loosed to deceive those he can (a short space, little season)
battle of Armageddon
Second Advent

 

[peacefulbeliever]

First Advent
New Covenant Messianic/Salvation Age
Gospel to Israel and some gentiles
devil chained and bound - symbolic for his disarming - not allowed to muster final global war
Jesus' Resurrection is the First Resurrection
Jesus Ascended, is Ruling
Pentecost - Gospel to the nations (satan not allowed to destroy Church, stop salvation)
men being saved - new births - partakers in first resurrection (spiritual raising) - receiving eternal life
symbolic 1,000 year period (Messianic/Salvation Age) - unknown length of time
Gospel to the world (satan not allowed to destroy Church, stop salvation)
end symbolic 1,000 year period (coming close of Age, a short space left)
Devil loosed to deceive those he can (a short space, little season)
battle of Armageddon
Second Advent

Okay, now I fully understand your stance. . . 1,000 year is symbolic and not a literal 1,000 years.
Also, to you the resurrection of the just and unjust are ONE resurrection and not two separate. . .one of the just then one of the unjust later?

 

[zone]

Okay, now I fully understand your stance. . . 1,000 year is symbolic and not a literal 1,000 years.

Also, to you the resurrection of the just and unjust are ONE resurrection and not two separate

right.

one of the just then one of the unjust later?

no....the first resurrection is Christ's Resurrection.
we are buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him in His Resurrection.
that is the first resurrection...spiritual....rebirth....eternal life through the Gospel and the Spirit now.

blessed are those who have part in it (the first resurrection)....over them the second death (lake of fire following THE RESURRECTION - general) has no power.


the only place it is ever mentioned is Rev 20.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

right.



no....the first resurrection is Christ's Resurrection.
we are buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him in His Resurrection.
that is the first resurrection...spiritual....rebirth....eternal life through the Gospel and the Spirit now.

blessed are those who have part in it (the first resurrection)....over them the second death (lake of fire following THE RESURRECTION - general) has no power.


the only place it is ever mentioned is Rev 20.

So Acts 24:15 - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust - is "figurative" also?

Yes, Revelation does say blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection. . . when are the rest of the dead raised?

 

[zone]

peaceful:

So Acts 24:15 - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust


"a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust"


Matthew 25
The Final Judgment
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


is "figurative" also?

really?


Yes, Revelation does say blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection. . . when are the rest of the dead raised?


see above.

also:

Luke 9:60
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

New Living Translation (©2007)
But Jesus told him, "Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God."

English Standard Version (©2001)
And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”


Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.


etc

 

[Elizabeth619]

Proof history repeats i:tself

Jews. They rejected Jesus as Messiah

Premils. They reject Jesus' reign.

The ongoing circle. It goes on and on. People can change the name of those who reject Jesus, but you are STILL rejecting him.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Proof history repeats i:tself

Jews. They rejected Jesus as Messiah

Premils. They reject Jesus' reign.

The ongoing circle. It goes on and on. People can change the name of those who reject Jesus, but you are STILL rejecting him.

No, as a premil, I do not reject Jesus' reign. The Jews expected a conquering Messiah and they didn't see that in Jesus - they saw someone who was humble, who suffered and who died. . that's why they had a problem believing he was the Messiah and btw, not all Jews rejected him. . .some believed.

Jesus reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords at his second coming when he is coming back to rule with a rod of iron. . .when he comes to tread the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God and he has on his vesture and on his thigh a name written. . .KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. . .