WHERE ARE WE TODAY IN THE BIRTH PAINS???

[Abiding]

So Christ came back in 70 Ad?

If he did. I missed it. If he did not. I guess all those things did not pass in that generation.

He did in judgement.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]
I think what makes those events so important to the world is that they prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

lol. Paul had proof Jesus was Christ the son of the living God long before 70 Ad. this is a stretch. If this is true, no one would have been saved before 70 ad. because there was not enough proof.

What made them so important to the Jews was that the removing of the things God had provided for the observance of the Old Covenant in exactly the manner foretold in the Law and in the Prophets was confirmation to the Jewish Christians that the New Covenant had come.

This has NOTHING to do with daniel 9. Daniel 9 was not about the old covenant. it was about the city and people of Israel.

Ad 70 was just ONE part of that prophesy. Gabriel told daniel other things would happen AFTER that event..

But that's not the point and God's faithfulness to His word is certainly not the issue. The issue is whether or not your understanding of those prophesies is correct. I don't believe they are. But you are blocking your mind from understanding any other viewpoint, I suppose out of fear, but it's possible to understand two or even several different viewpoints and the reasoning behind them without being swayed by them ... unless of course they are self-evidently true.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I could say your blocking your mind to? is this how we discuss scripture? You believe as I do or your blocking your mind??

Yes it is the point. If Gods prophesies do not come true, God is a liar. If he does not keep his promises, He is a liar.

If he is a liar. he is not God. and we are all doomed to hell

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He did in judgement.

He did? Who did he judge?? The gentile nations went on for hundreds of years, they are still going on. who did God judge?

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This happened in 70 AD?

 

[stek]

I am not the one denying prophecy and changing the context of the pauls letters to fulfil my beliefs.

So I will ask you plainly please, quote me the verse thats says Isreal is God's elect not that Isreal will be saved but his elect. If your going to say read Romans 11 I suggest you read it also especially 11:13&14 And show me only Isreal is Gods elect and only ones is going to Heaven.

For if this is true then salvation is not granted to me. this is what I understand you to be saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But what is Gentiles "fullness"? It can mean the "full number or complement" and that's how the NIV and the RSV render it. But it has many and various meanings. In 11:12 the NIV renders the same word as "fullness" (no word of "full number") and the RSV renders it "full inclusion". Paul uses the word (pleromati) in 15:29 to speak of the complete richness of Christ's blessing. The RSV leaves it as "fullness". I think the "fullness" of the Gentiles in 11:26 is the spiritual wealth with which God will bless the Gentiles. Note the contrasts in 11:11-12. We have
Jewish fall—Gentile salvation
Jewish fall—World riches
Jewish loss—Gentile riches
Jewish loss—Gentile fullness
There is nothing about "numbers" in the section. There is plenty about loss and gain and impoverishment and fullness. God hardens unbelieving Israel and it results in the crucifixion of the Messiah and that opens the door for rich Gentile blessing.
And Jews can come in through the cross. Through the deliverer, Which they have since

there is one huge thing which I have a problem with in this line of thinking.

that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved

Is Israel still blind in part?

if the answer is no. Then all isreal is saved.
If the answer is yes. then the fullness has yet to come in.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not the one denying prophecy and changing the context of the pauls letters to fulfil my beliefs.

Yes, actually you are

So I will ask you plainly please, quote me the verse thats says Isreal is God's elect not that Isreal will be saved but his elect. If your going to say read Romans 11 I suggest you read it also especially 11:13&14 And show me

I already did.

Because of election they are loved.

How can they bve loved and hated at the same time?

We hate them because they have the wrong gospel and proclaim it as truth

we love them why? they are still Gods elect.

only Isreal is Gods elect and only ones is going to Heaven.

what? lol.. now your twisting things. are you denying God elected Isreal in the OT> did it ever mean they were saved? There election was never concerning salvation

For if this is true then salvation is not granted to me. this is what I understand you to be saying.

And why not? Were people not saved BEFORE God elected Isreal as his people? did this mean all Isreal were saved after he elected them to be his people?

God did not elect them to save them. He elected them for a purpose.

 

[Abiding]

He did? Who did he judge?? The gentile nations went on for hundreds of years, they are still going on. who did God judge?

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This happened in 70 AD?

Israel of coarse. Ive showed you before OT prophecy using the terms: heaven, 4 winds, etc, tribes(Israel)
coming in the clouds is judgement language same with sun, moon etc.
If you didnt believe it the first few times i doubt itll change your mind now if i did a whole page again. right?????

 

[Abiding]

Yes, actually you are



I already did.

Because of election they are loved.

How can they bve loved and hated at the same time?

We hate them because they have the wrong gospel and proclaim it as truth

we love them why? they are still Gods elect.




what? lol.. now your twisting things. are you denying God elected Isreal in the OT> did it ever mean they were saved? There election was never concerning salvation



And why not? Were people not saved BEFORE God elected Isreal as his people? did this mean all Isreal were saved after he elected them to be his people?

God did not elect them to save them. He elected them for a purpose.

Loved and hated at the same time is not understanding v 28
go back to v 7

 

[stek]

who said Christ came back in 70 ad? Again I will ask where does paul say the nation of isreal is the elect of god??? He does not

Why did you stop here? Did Paul stop here?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
and why stop their? Go and post 13 through 16

Hate to say this but zone is right you are wrong

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel of coarse. Ive showed you before OT prophecy using the terms: heaven, 4 winds, etc, tribes(Israel)
coming in the clouds is judgement language same with sun, moon etc.
If you didnt believe it the first few times i doubt itll change your mind now if i did a whole page again. right?????

Jesus did not say he would judge Isreal. OT prophesies said he would judge the gentiles when he came.

dan 2" [SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

This is judgment on the gentile kingdoms.

Dan 7:

He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[SUP][d][/SUP] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
Luke 21: [SUP]25 [/SUP]“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, [SUP]26 [/SUP]men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory

Context is the world and judgment on the world. NOT ISREAL.

 

[Abiding]

there is one huge thing which I have a problem with in this line of thinking.

that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved

Is Israel still blind in part?

if the answer is no. Then all isreal is saved.
If the answer is yes. then the fullness has yet to come in.

Everyone is blind if they are in unbelief. But No otherwise. The gentiles fullness hapenned 2000 years ago.
Yes all true Israel is saved and being saved. Paul already went into detail that did NOT include children of the
flesh.

 

[zone]

It depends on what those conclusions are based on. Mine are based solely on study of the Scriptures, and secondarily history and archaeology. I was deeply indoctrinated into dispensationalism when I first became a Christian, back in the days of Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth," but after several years of painful soul-searching the Lord brought me out of that darkness. And I can honestly say I have not read a book or heard a cd or visited a website on eschatology since those early days. I learned not to trust men but rely on the Lord's guidance. I may be completely wrong on everything I believe, but my conclusions are all the fruit of my own personal study and I know they are based solely on Scripture.

good for you!

But that's not what the Scripture actually says. It says from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild the city until Messiah "the prince" would be 69 weeks. And the reference to the wall being built even in troubled times was talking about the third wall that the Jews hurriedly built after they revolted from Rome, to try to shore up the city's defenses on the north side, the most vulnerable area as the city was bordered by deep valleys on the other three sides.

i think the wall was actually this:

Nehemiah 4
Opposition to the Work
1a Now when Sanballat heard that we were building the wall, he was angry and greatly enraged, and he jeered at the Jews. 2And he said in the presence of his brothers and of the army of Samaria, “What are these feeble Jews doing? Will they restore it for themselves?b Will they sacrifice? Will they finish up in a day? Will they revive the stones out of the heaps of rubbish, and burned ones at that?” 3Tobiah the Ammonite was beside him, and he said, “Yes, what they are building—if a fox goes up on it he will break down their stone wall!” 4Hear, O our God, for we are despised. Turn back their taunt on their own heads and give them up to be plundered in a land where they are captives. 5Do not cover their guilt, and let not their sin be blotted out from your sight, for they have provoked you to anger in the presence of the builders.

6So we built the wall. And all the wall was joined together to half its height, for the people had a mind to work.

Actually that's not true. The development of the doctrine of two messiahs was of a post-Christian date. Before that time, and at the time of Jesus, the Messiah was not the focus of Rabbinic theology. He was, to put it bluntly, a means to an end. It was the restoration of the Davidic kingdom that the Jews lived in hopes of, the messiah was just the person who was going to bring it to pass. Much of what later became associated with messiah was previously viewed as the ministry of the forerunner, including things like raising the dead.

But as for Jesus' words, yes, he came to lay down his life a ransom. And he accomplished that. But then he took his life back up again and conquered hell, death, and the grave. You have to realize there is a "the rest of the story" to this, and you're leaving out a big part.

The problem the Jews had, and I believe the dispensationalists have the same blindness, is that you don't understand what "kingdom" Jesus came to lay down his life to establish. It isn't an earthly kingdom of dust and stone. The kingdom which Jesus' death opened the way into is the kingdom of Heaven, God's kingdom, an eternal kingdom where there is no sin or sickness or suffering or weeping or death. That's where the Jews missed it. Their eyes were and still are so fixed on and blinded by the glory of an earthly kingdom that they cannot or will not lift their eyes to heaven to see that kingdom that Abraham longed for and now dwells in. Remember Jesus told the Jews not to lay up treasures on earth, but to lay up treasures in heaven. That's why the Jewish religious authorities hated Jesus, because he didn't deliver them from Rome and set them up as rulers over all the earth as they were expecting the Messiah to do.

I am very well acquainted with Hebrews and I must say I disagree with your view of the efficacy of the Mosaic sacrifices. They most certainly did cleanse men of their sin, but to quote Paul, "for the blood of bulls and goats sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh." In other words, the cleansing afforded by the Mosaic sacrifices was only skin deep, but it was enough that they made the flesh clean because it was of the flesh of Israel that Jesus was born, his spirit was all of God.

Of course, it was a period of grace God allowed to the Jewish people. They first had to be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved from the judgement that was coming. That's why Jesus told his disciples to go first to Jerusalem and then Judea, and then Samaria and then to the outermost parts of the earth. The Gospel was to the Jew first, and only after all of Israel had heard the Gospel did the end come and the nation was judged and destroyed.


But that's just the point. Either you believe it is God's "plan" to have a rebuilt temple and reinstitution of the Mosaic sacrifices or not. I do not believe that is God's plan at all. Those things were types and figures which foreshadowed Jesus' sacrificial death and now that the true has come and the shadows have passed away I don't believe for a moment that God will allow what would be a repudiation of His Son's atoning death.

But that's just it, that's the whole point of human history. It has been engineered by God for the purpose of glorifying Jesus. Without that pivotal event in history, to which the Old looked forward, and to which the New looks back, there wouldn't be any point to human history, it would just be what the evolutionists say, blind accidents of nature without meaning or purpose.

The Scriptures says everything in the whole creation was not only made by Jesus, and through Jesus, but that it was made "for" Jesus. He is the reason the world was created, why man fell, why the angels rebelled, and why every moment of history has happened just the way it has happened ... "for Jesus."

The Cross stands at the center of time and history. Everything before it looked forward to it. And everything since flows from it. It divided time in half, B.C. + A.D. Jesus isn't just the reason for the season, Jesus is the reason for everything.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

YAY Pilgrimer!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Loved and hated at the same time is not understanding v 28
go back to v 7

lol.. Why? Take the verse literally.

vs 7 is useless unless you take the whole passage in context.

They are hardned in part

Their blindness will be iuntil the time of the gentiles are completed

what hgappenes next? All Isreal will be saved (not just the remnant.)

and why will NO ONE answer me as to whether or nots Isreals election of Gods people EVER meant they would all be saved??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

who said Christ came back in 70 ad? Again I will ask where does paul say the nation of isreal is the elect of god??? He does not

Why did you stop here? Did Paul stop here?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
and why stop their? Go and post 13 through 16

Hate to say this but zone is right you are wrong

lol. Ok, You follow ZOne. I will follow God..

now. are you going to answer the questiuon I asked you or continue to ignoire it..

 

[Abiding]

Besides the fact Paul defined true israel look at this:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Notice two words:

Israel Jacob now think!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Everyone is blind if they are in unbelief. But No otherwise. The gentiles fullness hapenned 2000 years ago.

It does not say this. It says they are blinded in part UNTIL the time is complete

If the gentiles fulness happened 2000 years ago. Then the blindness had better have been removed. or the whole passage makes no sense and has no value.

Yes all true Israel is saved and being saved. Paul already went into detail that did NOT include children of the
flesh.

Does not fit context.

Context is gentiles vs jew. saved or unsaved.

Paul did not go from separating saved and unsaved jews from saved and unsaved gentiles to all of a sudden put them back in the same things again.

I am sorry buddy, I love ya, But I can;t ignore context of romans 11. That God is NOT done with Isreal.

 

[loveme1]

Who is Israel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Besides the fact Paul defined true israel look at this:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Notice two words:

Israel Jacob now think!

1. Isreal is jacob.
2. Paul quoted an OT prophesy where they were called Jacob.

3. Paul is speaking of a future event. Thus it can;t be the cross. and it cant be 70 AD. because God has not yet removed the sins of Jacob.

As Zone loves to post over and over, Isreal is STILL in grave sin, Jacob is still in sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who is Israel?

depends on what the context is.

 

[Abiding]

lol.. Why? Take the verse literally.

vs 7 is useless unless you take the whole passage in context.

They are hardned in part

Their blindness will be iuntil the time of the gentiles are completed

what hgappenes next? All Isreal will be saved (not just the remnant.)

and why will NO ONE answer me as to whether or nots Isreals election of Gods people EVER meant they would all be saved??

taking it biblically is wiser than literally.