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doulos
Guest
Dan 9:25- 26 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The only one of the four decrees that ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem that included rebuilding the wall is the one issued by Artaxerxes in 444/445BC (seeNeh2). There are 483 days in 69 weeks (7x69=483). But Christ was not killed (cut off) 483 literal days after the restoration order so these days can not be literal days. Could they be years? Let’s have a look and see if it works. Let’s start at 444BC and proceed 483 years into the future and we come to 39AD. Nope doesn’t look like a fit, but wait a minute wasn’t a year to Daniel 360 days? Isn’t our calendar based on 365 ¼ days per year? So if Daniels years are 360 days and our calendar is based on 365 ¼ days we must convert Daniel’s years to fit our calendar. We could figure out how many days are in 483 of Daniels years and then divide that number by 365 ¼ to find out how many of Daniels year fit our calendar or we could make it simple by multiplying 483 x .9857 (coversion factor) to see how many of our calendars years they equal. 483 x .9857 = 476.09 which when rounded to whole years would be 476, so lets see how that fits. So let’s try again starting at 444BC and proceeding 476 years into the future takes us to 32AD. Bingo we have a fit, there you have it proof that a prophetic day is equal to a year!
Now that we have established that 457 is an incorrect start date let’s look at those first seven weeks and see where they actually take us. Once again starting at 444 and going 49 (49 of Daniels 360 day years = 48.3 years as used by the calendars history is recorded in) of Daniels years into the future 444 – 48.3 = 395.7 which rounds to 396. 396 was the year that Malachi was inspired to write the last book of the Old Testament. "The Scripture to the Jews was complete, and no more was written until the New Testament era! So Old Testament vision and prophecy were indeed 'sealed up'. As one dear Rabbi lamented in about 200 BC, 'The Holy Spirit has departed from Israel,' and until this very day, the Jews, as a nation, have not been permitted to see any further. The Lord has blinded their eyes so they could not recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Romans 11:8, 2 Corinthians 3:15)
I’ll leave it to the reader to decide should we use the only restoration decreee recorded in the Old Testament that matches the Scriptural requirement of rebuilding the wall or should we use Zone’s start date even though that decree does not meet the Scriptural requirement that includes rebuilding the wall? As for me I’ll stick with the decree that meets the Scriptural requirements laid out in Daniel’s prophecy that include rebuilding the wall “even in troublous times”.
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doulos
Guest
No it wasn’t 70AD for 70AD to meet the Scriptural requirement it would have to be “great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be”
Mat 24:15-22 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
While the events of 70AD were certainly horrific Jerusalem was not left desolate nor do we have an abomination that is still standing from those events. Could the blasphemous Islamic structure on the temple mount be THE abomination of desolation "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" that was "set up" (or "placed") to "stand" in the holy place?
Daniel 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(Tanach) - Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
Mark confirms it to be "standing" and tells us that the abomination is an "it":
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Luke tells us that it is Jerusalem that is desolated, in his parallel verse:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...
All three apostles also confirm something about the timing, because we find it is written about a future event as in "... ye shall see...", so we can conclude that it was to be an abomination, associated with the desolation of Jerusalem, in the future to the time at which Jesus delivered this discourse, even though it was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" well over 500 years prior to when Jesus delivered this Olivet Discourse
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Jerusalem was compassed with armies on many occasions after the discourse was delivered including 70 AD, 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967 and indeed even as of this writing. In 70 AD, a million Jews were killed, and an already long desolate temple was torn down. Jesus had declared almost 40 years earlier: Matt 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.", in part because the Pharisees had made "...the word of God of none effect through your tradition..." (Mark 7:13), a condition in which we seem to find much of today's church. If the temple had not already been rendered desolate as Jesus' declaration above would seem to suggest, then it was certainly rendered desolate through Jesus' shed blood on the Cross, almost 40 years before the temple was torn down in 70 AD. That is also why "...the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom..." after Jesus had "...yielded up the ghost..." on the Cross (Matt 27:50-51). In 70 AD the Christians escaped, and were saved from the slaughter of the Romans, not even desolating the Christian community.
Though a significant and horrific event in 70 AD, the Roman Gentiles came back to slaughter another 600,000-750,000 Jews less than 65 years later, in the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-135 AD.
Later in the Olivet Discourse we find:
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
So Luke gives us another historical time pin. It would seem problematic indeed to suggest that the "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled in 70 AD since the Roman Gentiles came back for a double dip of Jewish slaughter less than 65 years later. Let alone the list of Gentile armies from throughout the Christian era listed earlier. Blessedly, as Daniel's "times" seem to demonstrate - both mathematically and textually - the "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled in 1967, when the Jews were restored to power and control of Jerusalem for the first time in over 2500 years. We read "... when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people..." - the end of the scattering of the power of the Jews - the only "holy people" of Daniel's day.
Jerusalem was temporarily desolated in 70 AD, again in 132 AD, and conquered again in 639 AD when Khalifah Omar marched into town during the Islamic First Jihad. The church was alive and well since history tells us that Bishop Sophronius was compelled to show Khalifah Omar around town. History has shown that nothing was more physically or spiritually desolating to Jerusalem than 1100 years of Islamization and accompanying exile of Christians and Jews. By the early 1800's there were just 550 residents. This is why the historical record of Jerusalem in first quarter of the 19th century is sketchy and anecdotal at best.
In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321: "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."
Even 30 years later in 1867 Mark Twain described it thus: “ ...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
No surprise then when we find the founding verses on the Islamic abomination the Dome of the Rock read: O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son.
When we read: Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...
it becomes pretty clear that this would apply to all of the compassings of Jerusalem, but the desolation symbolized by the Dome of the Rock would seem confirmed when we consider the text and math of this verse:
Revelation 12:6 (KJV): And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
It was 1260 "days" (as years) from the founding of the Dome of the Rock in 688, representing the exile of Jews and Christians, until the declaration of an independent Israel in 1948. It was 42 prophetic "months" from 688 to 1967 as the beast continued. The date of 688 is also confirmed mathematically and textually by Daniel's 1290, and the 1290 is confirmed by his 1335.
Within the traditional continuous-historic context of prophecy it is then easy to understand that the Islamic Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, is THE abomination of desolation that was "set up" and is "standing where it ought not" on the temple mount. Indeed desolation of the mount is the order of the day through Islamic prohibition of prayer, and the bringing of "Holy objects" like bibles, onto the mount. Not a very good fit with 2 Thessalonians "man of sin", as Darby contended, since he "sitteth" or is seated rather than "stands", and a man is not an "it". Nor would it seem a very apt description of the conflagration of 70 AD, particularly since that was not at all desolating to the Christian community. The Dome of the Rock would, however, seem a very apt symbol for Islam, as representing the "beast" of the "time of the end". The final kingdom that oppresses God's people, just as we see Islamic blasphemy stand in the holy place, we can also see Islamic desolation of 55+ countries today, with two million slain in the Sudan alone.
Our Lord and Savior's return may truly be at hand when we consider: Matthew 24:32-34 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
The times of the Gentiles is one of the last of the "things" on the Olivet Discourse list to be fulfilled. The same generation that sees all "these things" in this passage fulfilled will not pass before Jesus' return. Whether a biblical or literal or metaphorical generation is meant is uncertain. But if the shortest possible time span is considered, enough bible prophecy has been fulfilled for Jesus to return .... TODAY! (I have no idea when Christ will return it could be any day or it could be many years away still,, but that generation that saw these thigs fulfilled has started!)
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Nancyer
Guest
My NIV states in these scriptures Seventy 'sevens' (each time with the quotation marks around the word seven). The side bar commentary explains the 70 'sevens' could be 70 weeks but many think they are 70 seven-year periods or 490 years.
I will read more on this, and may post more questions as they arise for me. Thank you everyone for this point of study.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
no that is exactly right. It is seventy sevens. or 70 weeks of years. Many people just call them weeks. But they are not literal weeks. but a "week of years" or as you said 490 years.
I know that this is a quote but I also know that you believe this because you inserted it into your post.
I just want to know how Dispensationalism departs from the only way of salvation? The only way to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ, his birth, his death, and his resurrection. I don't deny that, never have and never will.
All Dispensationalism does is set the Bible into different dispensations, or administrations (as you will). Every government is run within different administrations. The reign of President Washington was different than the reign of President Lincoln, etc., new president; new administration -- shift in presidents; shift in the administration.
Dispensation is not a period of time but a dispensing of laws/rules. Dispensation views the world as if it were a "household" run by God just as we run our family within our own household. i.e. When children are very little, there is a specified time for naps, a specified time for bedtime, they are told to clean their room but we will help -- as they get older no nap time, later bedtime and when told to clean their room they don't get any help and as they get even older they can set their own bedtime within limits, and now they not only keep their room but are given chores to help around the house (rules changed).
For instance: Isn't it true that multiple wives were at one time considered Okay? (Mosaic law - more than one wife but changed the close relatives marriage) But NOW, isn't it true there should only be ONE wife? (1 Cor 7:2 - one man, one woman) RULE Change! Isn't it true that certain sins had to be atoned by certain sacrifices? But NOW there is no more sacrifice. RULE Change! Food in Eden was considered to be only plants but after the flood you could eat meat (Gen. 9:3) then during the Mosaic law - only certain kinds of meat - NOW - nothing to be forbidden. Has every law changed NO - only those specifically mentioned throughout scripture. For instance: Stealing - wrong for every administration. Lying - wrong for every administration. . .etc.
I do NOT dispute the way to salvation is through grace from God by faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
some do.. her argument (as well as ours) is with them.. her problem is she thinks EVERYONE who believes in some form of dispensation believes like the ones who think god saves people in different ways (different gospels) which is not true..
anyone who teaches a different gospel, wither ammilenial, or premillenial is the enemy of God. We should pull our agreements together and fight this. But some will not allow it. because they can not believe we can be different here. yet still teach the same gospel. inspite of all the evidence shown them.
don't speak for me EG.
within a single post i know what flavor of dispensationalism every one of you teaches.
and some are so far gone, this doesn't surprise me at all:
"We should pull our agreements together and fight this"
nobody who holds to Bullingerism teaches the Biblical Gospel.
if you knew anything at all about it, you'd never even suggest such a thing.
if you want to discuss it with me (since you replied to my post), please do it here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59097-pre-millennialism-chiliaism.html < click
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peterT
Guest
Why would Jesus tell his disciples all about 70AD when they asked him about his coming and the end of the world. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Why would Jesus tell his disciples that he comes in the clouds at the sound of a trumpet and the angels gathered together the elect from one end of earth to the other end of the heaven the one shall be taken, and the other left. if he was talking about 70 AD.
Jesus said to the disciples flee into the mountains when you see the abomination of desolation because it sounds like that is where it is all going to begin, and if you weave Revelation into Matt24 you will see it a worldwide story of great tribulation
And Wow to the woman giving suck as well as being pregnant, it a lot to carry, especially in the winter as you would have to carry bedding as well, and hope it’s not on the Sabbath because the gates were shut on the Sabbath, and Jesus did not know the day or hour just the father.
Why would Jesus tell his disciples it will be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, if it was 70 AD. WW1 and WW2 was worse.
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peterT
Guest
In this case the 70 weeks are years.
Genesis 29:27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years
Genesis 29:28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
because it's not my thread and i've already discussed enough unrelated stuff.
do as you like
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RachelBibleStudent
Guest
i have seen this explanation before and i have two major objections...
first of all i object to the 'day year principle'...its only biblical support comes from scripture taken out of context...it is never set down as a rule for interpreting prophecy...and in fact when it is applied in other cases it inevitably results in false teaching...
with that said the equating of a day with a year -does- work for this prophecy only...but that is only because this particular prophecy is a special case...
my second objection is that there is no record...biblical or historical...of a decree to rebuild jerusalem in 457 BC when ezra was sent there... there -could- have been...since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...but without evidence i have no rational reason to believe that there was any such decree at that time...
the first biblically recorded decree to rebuild jerusalem was in 444 BC...and that presents problems because either the decree is too late to represent the beginning of the first week...or the ministry of jesus is too early to represent the middle of the seventieth week...
you have called the other theories 'gap theories'...but your interpretation seems to require a 'squish theory' to compress 490 years of prophecy into around 475 years of history...
i get the impression that you aren't very concerned about the chronology as long as you are satisfied with the theology...but as a historian i cannot accept a theological interpretation that does not work out chronologically...
the devil is in the details...
thats correct.
let me know when you work them (details) out to your satisfaction.
they will work within the 70 weeks.
you're missing something if you're not finding the solution - which isn't a GAP(s)
gaps are for other purposes...not correct interpetration of any prophecy and not for sound theology.
i frankly haven't devoted a ton of time to the details of the 70th week.
haven't felt the need.
perhaps i will one day soon.
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rachel -
did all these things refer to Jesus?
and did He accomplish them?
To finish the transgression Isaiah 53:5; Hebrews 10:12-14
To make an end of sins Hebrews 9:26
To make reconciliation for iniquity Rom. 5:10; Heb. 10:17
To bring in everlasting righteousness II Cor. 5:21
To seal up the vision and prophecy Matthew 5:17
To anoint the Most Holy Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38
The prophecy concerning the time measure of the 70 weeks or 490 years is completely fulfilled and is a matter of Biblical historical record.
end of controversy for me, really.
did all these things refer to Jesus?
and did He accomplish them?
To finish the transgression Isaiah 53:5; Hebrews 10:12-14
To make an end of sins Hebrews 9:26
To make reconciliation for iniquity Rom. 5:10; Heb. 10:17
To bring in everlasting righteousness II Cor. 5:21
To seal up the vision and prophecy Matthew 5:17
To anoint the Most Holy Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38
The prophecy concerning the time measure of the 70 weeks or 490 years is completely fulfilled and is a matter of Biblical historical record.
end of controversy for me, really.
Are you listening to what Zone is actually saying?
There is only one truth. There is no my truth,your truth,someone else's truth. This is only one truth and that's God's truth.
Everything else is relativism. Whatever truth I have MUST line up with His truth. On this there is nothing to argue about.
An opinion does not mean it's true or make it true,as much as one wants to think it does.
No problem,glad to help.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I have been for two years. Same old conspiracy theory crap. Same old lies about what I believe. and same old false condemnation of things she does not know or understand.
I agree. but there are also things I think which will not be KNOWN as sure until they happen.. I am sure the jews, who saw all the signs of Christ. thought the same way people today think of in seeing certain signs..that they explained them away symbolically. said other things, all to prove to themselves, Christ was not the messiah, because it did not fit their belief system.
But here is the difference.. Theirs cost them their salvation. Ours only cost us some arguments like we see today.. and one day we will ALL know which way God intended the truth to be, all we can do now is guess. and discuss. and if need be, agree to disagree..
this is not a salvation issue, like osme people make it out to be.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Thats why you symbolise everything, and make allegories.. If the literal does not fit your belief,, you explain it away in symbology and religiosity, the roman church has been doing this with Gods truth since the 300's AD.. do we expect it to change?
Ahh,but aren't you accusing her of the very same things that you say she is accusing you of? Do you yourself really understand it all? If you yourself do not understand it all can you be sure that she does not understand it if she has studied it far more then you have?
I agree. but there are also things I think which will not be KNOWN as sure until they happen.. I am sure the jews, who saw all the signs of Christ. thought the same way people today think of in seeing certain signs..that they explained them away symbolically. said other things, all to prove to themselves, Christ was not the messiah, because it did not fit their belief system.
But here is the difference.. Theirs cost them their salvation. Ours only cost us some arguments like we see today.. and one day we will ALL know which way God intended the truth to be, all we can do now is guess. and discuss. and if need be, agree to disagree..
this is not a salvation issue, like osme people make it out to be.
But the real question is,is it costing someone else their salvation? (I am not talking about yours) If so then it does become a salvation issue and that is the point.