WHERE ARE WE TODAY IN THE BIRTH PAINS???

[zone]

I will paste a link to a study of Daniel's 70 weeks in here also in hope that one takes their own initiative and study themselves.

Biblical Studies

more of the same:

Summary

In summary, the seventy weeks will see the complete removal of Israel's sins forever, the establishment of everlasting righteousness, the final fulfillment of all Old Testament prophecy and the consecration of the temple.

All this helps to establish the time-frame of the prophecy as well. Clearly, it involves the earthly life and ministry of Jesus; His sacrificial work is the atonement being spoken of (#3). But He has not yet "put an end" to the sins of Israel (#1, 2). He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality; the sins continue today. Nor have the many prophecies of the Old Testament been fulfilled (#5). Nor has the holy of holies been "anointed" (#6). These words seem to suggest a yet future fulfillment.

............................

people practicing Pharisaical Talmudic Judaism are in sin, ERGO:

Jesus hasn't really accomplished ANYTHING - "He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"


"He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality" < DENIAL OF THE VERY PERSON, AND REAL WORK OF CHRIST.

mind-numbing.
but paid for by Oxford.
brought to you by Scofield.
loved by Zionists
and cheered on by so-called-christians.
unspeakable.

 

[zone]

"The fact is, Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a future rebuilt temple, nothing about restored sacrifices, nothing about the Antichrist making a covenant with the Jews! There are over 280 references to ‘covenant’ in the scriptures and NOT ONE of them in any way introduces the idea of a covenant being made between the Jews and the Antichrist."
Ralph Woodrow

 

[cfultz3]

more of the same:

Summary

In summary, the seventy weeks will see the complete removal of Israel's sins forever, the establishment of everlasting righteousness, the final fulfillment of all Old Testament prophecy and the consecration of the temple.

All this helps to establish the time-frame of the prophecy as well. Clearly, it involves the earthly life and ministry of Jesus; His sacrificial work is the atonement being spoken of (#3). But He has not yet "put an end" to the sins of Israel (#1, 2). He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality; the sins continue today. Nor have the many prophecies of the Old Testament been fulfilled (#5). Nor has the holy of holies been "anointed" (#6). These words seem to suggest a yet future fulfillment.

............................

people practicing Pharisaical Talmudic Judaism are in sin, ERGO:

Jesus hasn't really accomplished ANYTHING - "He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"

Offering people a different prospective and telling them to go and study themselves and let them conclude what is a proper understanding. None of us have the complete truth.

It would be misleading to let people think it was said: Jesus hasn't really accomplished ANYTHING - "He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"

when it was said instead: But He has not yet "put an end" to the sins of Israel (#1, 2). He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality (Christ put an end to the accountability of Israel's sin, as He has done for us all under the new Covenant. But, it would seem Israel still sins, even as we Christians still do.)

People, do not take anyone's word, go and study Scripture yourself. And in all things, be like a good Berean.

 

[zone]

Offering people a different prospective and telling them to go and study themselves and let them conclude what is a proper understanding. None of us have the complete truth.

It would be misleading to let people think it was said: Jesus hasn't really accomplished ANYTHING - "He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"

when it was said instead: But He has not yet "put an end" to the sins of Israel (#1, 2). He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality (Christ put an end to the accountability of Israel's sin, as He has done for us all under the new Covenant. But, it would seem Israel still sins, even as we Christians still do.)

People, do not take anyone's word, go and study Scripture yourself. And in all things, be like a good Berean.

read the whole article. i did.

it teaches the same rubbish as all these others, all on the same foundation - some jews reject Christ - therefore, He didn't Finish ANYTHING.

what'd you add this for Chris?

"(Christ put an end to the accountability of Israel's sin, as He has done for us all under the new Covenant. But, it would seem Israel still sins, even as we Christians still do.)"

the article doesn't say that.
it says:

"He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"

 

[cfultz3]

read the whole article. i did.

it teaches the same rubbish as all these others, all on the same foundation - some jews reject Christ - therefore, He didn't Finish ANYTHING.

what'd you add this for Chris?

"(Christ put an end to the accountability of Israel's sin, as He has done for us all under the new Covenant. But, it would seem Israel still sins, even as we Christians still do.)"

the article doesn't say that.
it says:

"He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"

I posted a correction and you likewise, let people decide for themselves.

 

[zone]

I posted a correction and you likewise, let people decide for themselves.

of course people will decide for themselves: lots will stick to this stuff cuz it's all they know right now, or it's all they ever want to believe:

from your article:

"Daniel teaches us that the final seven years of this age will witness a world leader rising to power and eventually working great blasphemy in the temple in Jerusalem--an event which marks the "great tribulation" (Mt.24) and "the day of the Lord" (2 Thes.2). This assumes a political future for the nation of Israel as well as the reconstruction of her temple, an event not uncommon in the prophetic word (Ezekiel 40-43; 2 Thes.2:4; Rev. 11:1-2, etc.). At the culmination of the seventieth seven Jesus Christ will return to execute judgment upon the man of sin and his following (Dan.9:26-27; Mt.24:29ff; 2 Thes. 2:2-12; Rev.19:11-20:3). The nation of Israel will then turn to her Messiah in faith (Zech.12:10) so that her transgressions and sins will be "brought to an end." At last, every Old Testament prophecy will have come to fruition, and the temple itself will be consecrated."


everyone decides for themselves.

they may wish to ponder the implications of Christ not Fulfilling the 70th week.
it means they're not saved.
and it's BLASPHEMY

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Offering people a different prospective and telling them to go and study themselves and let them conclude what is a proper understanding. None of us have the complete truth.

It would be misleading to let people think it was said: Jesus hasn't really accomplished ANYTHING - "He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality"

when it was said instead: But He has not yet "put an end" to the sins of Israel (#1, 2). He has in principle, to be sure, but not in actuality (Christ put an end to the accountability of Israel's sin, as He has done for us all under the new Covenant. But, it would seem Israel still sins, even as we Christians still do.)

People, do not take anyone's word, go and study Scripture yourself. And in all things, be like a good Berean.

Jesus fulfilled everything, Not just in principle. but in reality. The payment for the eternal penalty of sin for ALL PEOPLE, jew or Gentile was paid in full 2000 years ago on the cross.

When gabriel speaks of the "end of sin" for daniels people. he is speaking of them stopping the sin that denial was confessing. Their repentance having come true.

It does not mean their sin is forgiven, because Christ paid for it.

it means they no longer play the harlot with false Gods. No longer think their laws and traditions save them. No longer think they are better than anyone else (pride of being a jew) no longer think gentiles are unclean, but they are saved also.

as scripture tells us in ez 37.. when this happens., Isreal will.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

 

[Abiding]

being wrong about eschatology is not blaspheme
At best you can call it stupid. Possible merely ignorance or misled.
God is looking at the heart. Truth without love is dreadful.
you can only insult people so many times and all your witness is gone.
Then IF what you teach is true, the truth will be trampled in the streets.
God understands this. And He is mercyful. And hasnt much respect for
those who show no mercy. Because it gives truth an ugly appearance
making it counterproductive even if its shared.

 

[cfultz3]

Jesus fulfilled everything, Not just in principle. but in reality. The payment for the eternal penalty of sin for ALL PEOPLE, jew or Gentile was paid in full 2000 years ago on the cross.

When gabriel speaks of the "end of sin" for daniels people. he is speaking of them stopping the sin that denial was confessing. Their repentance having come true.

It does not mean their sin is forgiven, because Christ paid for it.

it means they no longer play the harlot with false Gods. No longer think their laws and traditions save them. No longer think they are better than anyone else (pride of being a jew) no longer think gentiles are unclean, but they are saved also.

as scripture tells us in ez 37.. when this happens., Isreal will.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Did you read the context? Is what he is accused of really what he said?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did you read the context? Is what he is accused of really what he said?

I was just adding to what he said, sorry if ya misunderstood me !!

 

[cfultz3]

of course people will decide for themselves: lots will stick to this stuff cuz it's all they know right now, or it's all they ever want to believe:

from your article:

"Daniel teaches us that the final seven years of this age will witness a world leader rising to power and eventually working great blasphemy in the temple in Jerusalem--an event which marks the "great tribulation" (Mt.24) and "the day of the Lord" (2 Thes.2). This assumes a political future for the nation of Israel as well as the reconstruction of her temple, an event not uncommon in the prophetic word (Ezekiel 40-43; 2 Thes.2:4; Rev. 11:1-2, etc.). At the culmination of the seventieth seven Jesus Christ will return to execute judgment upon the man of sin and his following (Dan.9:26-27; Mt.24:29ff; 2 Thes. 2:2-12; Rev.19:11-20:3). The nation of Israel will then turn to her Messiah in faith (Zech.12:10) so that her transgressions and sins will be "brought to an end." At last, every Old Testament prophecy will have come to fruition, and the temple itself will be consecrated."


everyone decides for themselves.

they may wish to ponder the implications of Christ not Fulfilling the 70th week.

Just as you have decided upon what you believe. Likewise, allow others to decide what they will. It is not to you nor I who they will account to. Besides, is it not the administration of the Holy Spirit to convict?

 

[cfultz3]

I was just adding to what he said, sorry if ya misunderstood me !!

I guess I assumed (funny how that works)

Sorry about that, EG

 

[Abiding]

Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness to all men.

Philippians 2:3,14 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves...

James 1:19,20 Why, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath...

Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love;

2 Tim2:24And THE SERVANT of the Lord MUST NOT STRIVE ; but be GENTLE to ​all men, apt to teach, patient,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I guess I assumed (funny how that works)

Sorry about that, EG

its ok.. things go nuts sometimes!!

 

[Anonimous]

A bit off subject on this but realized something and would like some thoughts.


Just wanted to ask you what you think about II Thes 2:9.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (NKJV)

(originally I thought the word 'after' could actually be translated 'according to' or 'like as to'.) That would fit with the other translations.


The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, (NIV)

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, (NASB)

Here is my question and confusion. In the NKJV, also KJV in v.9 it says 'even him'. I have heard people say this 'him' is Jesus. It is used to show that Jesus will not return until after the antichrist or son of perdition is revealed. (personally I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture...anymore).

But, if you look at the other translations it seems as if the whole meaning of the verse is changed. Maybe it is a sentence structure thingy. Am I making sense? Feel free to re-post. Maybe someone else could enlighten me on this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A bit off subject on this but realized something and would like some thoughts.


Just wanted to ask you what you think about II Thes 2:9.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (NKJV)

(originally I thought the word 'after' could actually be translated 'according to' or 'like as to'.) That would fit with the other translations.


The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, (NIV)

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, (NASB)

Here is my question and confusion. In the NKJV, also KJV in v.9 it says 'even him'. I have heard people say this 'him' is Jesus. It is used to show that Jesus will not return until after the antichrist or son of perdition is revealed. (personally I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture...anymore).

But, if you look at the other translations it seems as if the whole meaning of the verse is changed. Maybe it is a sentence structure thingy. Am I making sense? Feel free to re-post. Maybe someone else could enlighten me on this.

I believe "him" is not jesus, but the one who comes in the power of satan, He is the lawless one.

Never hear him described as jesus.. Would like to hear why they think it is.

 

[Anonimous]

I believe "him" is not jesus, but the one who comes in the power of satan, He is the lawless one.

Never hear him described as jesus.. Would like to hear why they think it is.

I think it they were using this to say that Jesus would not return until AFTER the man of lawlessness is revealed. Reading it in context I think we are on the same page. I'll have to re-read their comments again to make sure. Maybe I just misunderstood. I think there are enough other verses to support a non pre-trib arrival.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it they were using this to say that Jesus would not return until AFTER the man of lawlessness is revealed. Reading it in context I think we are on the same page. I'll have to re-read their comments again to make sure. Maybe I just misunderstood. I think there are enough other verses to support a non pre-trib arrival.

I agree with you. Just remember, they would say Jesus does not arrive pre-trib.. He just takes people up. but he does not come.. You would need more than that to show they are wrong.. they already have that covered..lol

I personally am undecided, but leaning against it.

 

[Anonimous]

I agree with you. Just remember, they would say Jesus does not arrive pre-trib.. He just takes people up. but he does not come.. You would need more than that to show they are wrong.. they already have that covered..lol

I personally am undecided, but leaning against it.

This has not been an easy transition for me. I mean believing in a pre-trib for 25+ years...even before being saved. I had to start all over again. I sort of stopped listening to people and began studying on my own...and praying. Believe me...a pre-trib rapture would be nice! But, I'm just not convinced of it anymore. The "why" of it would would bore you...and maybe not believed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This has not been an easy transition for me. I mean believing in a pre-trib for 25+ years...even before being saved. I had to start all over again. I sort of stopped listening to people and began studying on my own...and praying. Believe me...a pre-trib rapture would be nice! But, I'm just not convinced of it anymore. The "why" of it would would bore you...and maybe not believed.

lol, I am with ya.. I was a stern pre-triber most of my life. It was not until lately I changed my thinking and am not sure anymore.

I will just say this, All sided have their good points and their bad points. I think non of us will know until it happens (or does not happen) lol