Daniel is out of chronological order.

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Ellis - your writings/work in blue


A. ch.2-3…...The Seven Churches…The Church
B. ch.6……….The Seven Seals……….World Judged
C. ch.7:4-8..The 144,000…………….Old Testament

C. ch.7:9-14…..The Great Multitude….New Testament
B. ch.8-9………..The Seven Trumpets…World Judged
A. ch.11………….The Two Witnesses……The Church



A. ch.12…..Woman with 12 Stars……….Israel
B. ch.13…..Leopard-Lion-Bear Beast….Satanic Kingdom
B ch.14…..144,000 & The Gospel……..The Saved Within It
C. ch.15…..Song of Moses and Lamb…Victory for Redeemed

C. ch.16…..Bowls of Wrath……………..Wrath for the Wicked
B. ch.17…..Seven-Headed Beast…….Satanic Kingdoms
B. ch.18…..Babylon………………………….Satanic System
B ch.19…..King of Kings…………………Destruction of Wicked
A. ch.20…..The Thousand Years……..The Church


this is 4 then 5...not 4 and 4 or 5 and 5....so what happened to your step ladder?


The Two Witnesses are the Church and the Old-Wineskin-Saved-through-Blinding-Jews are both
witnesses to the God of heaven”.

“At the end of the Two Witnesses the Church and the Jews will lose their spiritual power.”


wasn't that in 1948?

how did the Two Witnesses of God lose their spiritual power in 1948?



A. ch.12…..Woman with 12 Stars……….Israel
B. ch.13…..Leopard-Lion-Bear Beast….Satanic Kingdom
B ch.14…..144,000 & The Gospel……..The Saved Within It
C. ch.15…..Song of Moses and Lamb…Victory for Redeemed

C. ch.16…..Bowls of Wrath……………..Wrath for the Wicked
B. ch.17…..Seven-Headed Beast…….Satanic Kingdoms
B. ch.18…..Babylon………………………….Satanic System
B ch.19…..King of Kings…………………Destruction of Wicked
A. ch.20…..The Thousand Years……..The Church



so SATAN rules over the Holy Land throughout history via seven (7) Satanic Kingdoms?
But throughout all that God is preserving His Two Witnesses the Jews and the Church?
straighten out any misunderstanding ellis.
before we go on.

are these your Chiasms?

anything you else you need to post before explaining why you believe

Re: Daniel is out of chronological order.

and what you mean by it?
you mean the events prophesied were placed out of their prophetic order?

or Daniel recapitulates like EVERY OTHER PROPHET'S WRITING?

 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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is that why ppl can't seem to grasp how all 70 weeks (fulfilled) are written on paper.....in 2 dimensional written characters called letters which make up words which express ideas...and how the Most Important Event in the History of the World concerning Jesus Christ and the New Covenant are expressed in a single passage - Daniel 9?

just can't read it and see it?

gotta have giant gaps in there to support the Parallel False Religion of Talmudic Judaism's plan to usurp the church, and carve out a carnal kingdom - instigating a Clash of Civilizations (causing christians to war against muslims until both are consumed)?
ya...that's it.

just repeat something long enough and it is accepted as fact.

NOT FULFILLED.

NOT ABOUT JESUS....it's about a country called israel.

and nothing can change it.
regardless of what the Bible actually says.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
Like people has been telling you, ignore it and move on. Take it from people who has been here awhile, it won't stop as long as you respond to it.
Yes, you are right. I'm obviously old fashoned, but I don't think a Christian forum should allow a Christian member to be msrepresented or lied about. In my day, we believed that Christians should be honorable. Zone has been claiming I teach salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus and that is absolutely untrue, plus a lot of other distortions. I will put her on ignore.
 
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Therapon

Guest
i read elsewhere in your own writings you said you did not read or write hebrew.
What part of the word "smattering" don't you understand?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Yes, you are right. I'm obviously old fashoned, but I don't think a Christian forum should allow a Christian member to be msrepresented or lied about. In my day, we believed that Christians should be honorable. Zone has been claiming I teach salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus and that is absolutely untrue, plus a lot of other distortions. I will put her on ignore.
you can put me on ignore.

you SHAMELESSLY claim jews are saved by NOT acknowledging Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah.

any future messiah, and semblance of anything messianic is enough.

"God found a way" to "save His people", "Old Testament Old Wineskin Jews"...a NEW soteriology (how people are saved).

and it doesn't involve the confessing with their mouths and believing in their hearts JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH of Scripture is THE WAY.

they're saved by NOT knowing His Name. if they did they'd explode, so Jesus preserved them in their unbelief.

everybody knows this is what you say.

and you want us to stand shoulder to shoulder with our Brothers, The Pharisees who scorn, reject and blaspheme Jesus of Nazareth but 'believe in' somebody else.

stand with them against the big bad mooslims and their Abomination the Dome of the Rock.

you SHAMELESSLY claim jews are saved even as they reject and scorn the Lord who bought them, Jesus of Nazareth THE ONLY Messiah.

that's antisemitic, antichristian, and antichrist....so you're blowing smoke when you call yourself a christian.

no Christian would EVER make this claim.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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What part of the word "smattering" don't you understand?
i'll get your own words...you said "I DO NOT READ HEBREW".

period.

just more of your magic tricks.
the Illusionist.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
Therapon, why not discuss your work with those questioning it?
Why else are you here?
You are right, brother. I shouldn't allow myself to be offended by ungodly attitudes about which I can do nothing. Have to remember to keep a loving and forgiving spirit, and that's not always easy for me. <wry smile>
 
Oct 14, 2012
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Well, Daniel is the only book in the Bible where chapters are deliberately placed out of chronological order. Chapters 7 and 8 were written before chapter 5, and chapter 9 was written before chapter 6.

What I'm getting at is this: in 12:4 God commanded Daniel to "Seal and conceal these words until the time of the end," then in 12:9, God told Daniel, "These words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end."

Now 12:4 is a command, so Daniel has to do something between 12:4 and 12:9 to seal the book. However, Daniel couldn't rewrite or in any way change what the Kodesh Ruach (the Holy Spirit) had already inspired him to write, but he must have done something. And what do we find? Some of Daniel's chapters are rearranged out of chronological order! That isn't just a careless scribal error, it is deliberate, but what does it mean?
Good find Therapon. I shall have to think on this one.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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God told Daniel, "These words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end."

the end of the Old Covenant.
the end of captivity.
the end of the transgression.

the time when JESUS of Nazareth fulfilled ALL that was written in the Law & The Prophets < Daniel included!

Daniel 9 included!

not some 2000 gap "the end".

eh.....
 
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1still_waters

Guest
Hi Zone.
Hi Therapon.
*waves*

I haven't followed the entire back and forth between you two.
But here is what I'm guessing is going on.


Zone is trying to show the implications of what Therapon is teaching.
Therapon isn't directly saying the stuff that Zone is saying he is saying.

In Zone's view, the stuff Therapon is teaching has certain implications.
Therapon may not understand those implications.
Due to not understanding the implications, Therapon feels Zone is misrepresenting what he is actually saying.

So I want to provide a chance to clear up any misunderstandings.

Zone says this about Therapon's teachings.

"God found a way" to "save His people", "Old Testament Old Wineskin Jews"...a NEW soteriology (how people are saved).

and it doesn't involve the confessing with their mouths and believing in their hearts JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH of Scripture is THE WAY.

they're saved by NOT knowing His Name. if they did they'd explode, so Jesus preserved them in their unbelief.
Therapon.
*waves*

Do you believe the content in the quote bubble above is correct teaching?
Is it true?
Is part of it true?
Is part of it untrue?
Is all of it untrue?

If part is true and part is untrue, can you please explain which parts are true or untrue.

I think by answering this, we may be able to address the on going back and forth between you two.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Are you suggesting that Jews of the Christian era are not elect , i.e. saved, unless they become freinds of the gospel? That's not what that verse says in Greek or in English. Look art the tense of the verb, "they are (present tense) enemies of the Gospel, but elect.The the next verse clinches it . . .

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," in Greek, ametamelatos, which means irrevocable.

So if the Jews were ever called of God, they still are, even if they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. How so? Well look ar Romans 11:8 . . .

"According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" (the Gospel). And Romans 4:15 is the mechanism by which they can still be saved . . .

"for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So if God sends His chosen people to hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel, then God is unjust!
..............................
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I'll try, brother. First off, nobody from Adam on down is saved without the shed blood of Jesus, nobody. If God the Father had not seen the death of His Son when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, Creation would have ended right then, in a thunderclap. But if knowledge of that fact is required, then we are not going to see very many Old Testament saints in heaven.

Now let me give you a hypothetical scenario: While Jesus was on earth, there were Jews spread beyond the known world, in South Africa, China, Russia, England and elsewhere. They were reading "Oh how love I thy law, it is my meditation day and night" and praying to the G-d of their fathers. Those Jews didn't know that Jesus was even on the planet so they worshiped JHVH as best they knew how from Torah and the Writings. They were saved by the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I don't think any Bible- believing conservative theologian on earth would disagree with that.

But unknown to those diaspora Jews, the Lord Jesus went to the Cross for them, is resurrected and now sits at the right hand of Authority on high. Separated by thousands of miles from Jerusalem, they knew nothing about it.

Now here’s the question: Would those diaspora Jews who couldn't get their doctrine updated, instantly become lost the moment they came into the Christian era? If we say yes, then salvation depends on having the correct doctrinal knowledge, rather than on having a right heart towards God. If we say no, which I believe to be the correct biblical position, then Jews could be saved after the Cross without knowing Jesus as their Messiah. Point being, if a Jew could be saved for one millisecond into the Christian era without a knowledge of Jesus, then a Jew in that same spiritual condition could be saved 2000 years later. Since it is a scriptural given that God blinded the Jews to the Gospel, then like it or not, that condition does exist


So a better question would be, WHY did God blind them, rather than did it happen, because Romans 11:8 says so, but not so as those Jews would be lost, Romans 11:11.
................................
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Jew is one inwardly not outwardly.....ducks out ....
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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Well, according to Romans 2, that is true. Oh, I can give you lots of Scripture, but I also want you to think, not just regurgitate the traditional Pablum so beloved by the masses. Here is just one scriptural example. Afrter you have decided you don't want to believe it because it's not in keeping with generally accepted doctrine, we'll go on to another.

The following parable appears in all three synoptic Gospels, (in Mat 9, Mark 2 and Luke 5), where Jesus tells the Jews what the future holds for them and the Gentile Church. Many don't want to accept the Lord's parable at face value, nevertheless, this is what He said:

Luke 5:33-39, KJV "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink? And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber (the coming Church) fast, while the bridegroom (Jesus) is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them (after the resurrection), and then shall they fast in those days. And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment (the New Testament Gospel) upon an old (The Levitical code); if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine (of the Gospel) into old bottles (of the Old Testament Jews); else the new wine (of the Gospel) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (Old Testament Jews) bottles shall perish. But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."

Like I said, you won't want to believe it, but that's what Jesus said anyway: "But new wine (of the Gospel) must be put into new bottles; and both (The Jewish People and the Church) are preserved."




note from zone:


And no man putteth new wine (The New Covenant) into old bottles (The Old Covenant); else the new wine (The New Covenant) will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the (The Old Covenant) bottles shall perish.

"But new wine (The New Covenant) must be put into new bottles; and both (the New Wine and the New Bottles) are preserved."


this parable NEVER said Jesus preserved Old Testament Hard Wine Skin Jews by NOT pouring the Gospel into them!!
it said New Covenant believers are preserved.

The Old Covenant was passing away!


Therapon is teaching Dual Covenant, even though he denies it.
 
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Therapon

Guest
Daniel 5:30 “In that night Belshazzar the Chaldean King was slain.”
Daniel 7:1 “In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon”
Daniel 8:1 “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar.”

Those are the scriptural givens. Daniel 7 and 8 were obviously written before chapter 5, so Daniel is unarguably out of chronological order. Now look at this . . .

Daniel 6:1
“It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom a hundred and twenty satraps.”
Daniel 9:1 “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes.”

Daniel was “daily in the king’s court,” second ruler in the land, obviously a master of court protocol, so he would never have started writing about a king before telling the reader who that king was. In Daniel 9, Darius is introduced. In Daniel 6, the readers already know who Darius is, so Daniel 9 was written before Daniel 6.

In Daniel 12:4, God tells Daniel to “seal and conceal the words of this book.” in Daniel 12:9, we read, “these words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end.” Now Daniel could not rewrite what the Holy Spirit had inspired, but he had to do something to obey the command of 12:4. So it appears that Daniel put his visions out of chronological order. Here is their original chronological order . . .

1. Introduction, ch.1, in Hebrew.
2. The great image, ch.2, in Chaldee.
3. the fiery furnace, ch.3 in Chaldee.
4. Nebuchadnezzar goes insane, ch.4, in Chaldee
5. The four Beasts (now ch.7) in Chaldee.
6. The Two Beasts (now ch.8) in Chaldee.
7, Belshazzar dies., ch.5, in Chaldee.
8. The 70 weeks, ch.9, in Hebrew.
9. Daniel in the lion’s den, ch. 6, in Chaldee.
10. Two Empires, ch 10-12 in Hebrew.

That is from irrefutable scriptural evidence! When Daniel put his chapters out of order, as we now see in the Bible, Daniel accomplished two things:

First: he put the Hebrew chapters separate from the Chaldee chapters, clearly showing that Daniel indeed had two audiences: (1) the Gentile nations who would control the holy land into the distant future (2) the future of the Jewish people during that same. So Daniel is bifidic and his prophecies to Gentiles and Jews are primarily about same “the time of the Gentiles.”

Second: it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that Daniel actually does have 2 chiasms, the first a three-part in Chaldee to the Gentiles, second a two-part in Hebrew to the Jews. Neither would have been formed if Daniel had not been put out of order!

A ch.2, The Great Image 4 Gentile Empires
B ch.3, The Fiery Furnace God's People in Tribulation
C ch.4, Nebuchadnezzar Insane Gentile Rulers Judged
C ch.5, Belshazzar Killed Gentile Rulers Judged
B ch.6, The Lions Den God's People in Tribulation
A ch.7,The Four Beasts 4 Gentile Empires

The four empires in the great image are the same as the four empires of the four beasts, foretelling who would control the holy land during “the time of the Gentiles.” The fiery furnace and the lion’s den are both about God’s chosen people in tribulation during the “time of the Gentiles.” Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar being judged are still future, symbolic of God’s final judgment on those who desecrated his Temple Mount and made His people suffer.

And I think I’ll start a new thread with this, titled “Daniel’s 1st Chiasm.” If It does nothing else, it will keep Zone busy. <grin>
 
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1still_waters

Guest
Zone.
Hi.
*waves*

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what parts are from you, and what parts are from therapon in your posts.

Could you possibly put his name over his parts then your name over your parts so I can tell who is exactly saying what?

Thankies.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Zone.
Hi.
*waves*

I'm really having a hard time figuring out what parts are from you, and what parts are from therapon in your posts.

Could you possibly put his name over his parts then your name over your parts so I can tell who is exactly saying what?

Thankies.
i'm just starting to post his own quotes from other threads.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Therapon.
Hi again.
*waves*

Can you do me a favor please.
Can you simply answer with a yes or no.

Do you believe the stuff in the quote bubble below is correct?

God found a way" to "save His people", "Old Testament Old Wineskin Jews"...a NEW soteriology (how people are saved).

and it doesn't involve the confessing with their mouths and believing in their hearts JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH of Scripture is THE WAY.

they're saved by NOT knowing His Name. if they did they'd explode, so Jesus preserved them in their unbelief.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
i'm just starting to post his own quotes from other threads.
Ok I can't tell if the bold and colored parts are you inserting your thoughts, or you just emphasizing his thoughts.

Which is it?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Connecting The Dots . . .

1. The 10 tribes of Israel were taken captive by Shalmaneser the Assyrian in 725-722 B. C. and dispersed into the Caucasus Mountains region.

Deuteronomy 4:27 “And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.”

Amos 9:8-9 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom (Israel), and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations (so the ten tribes were dispersed among the Gentiles), like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.” (But none of them will be lost)

2. Just analyzed documents from the former USSR indicates that in the following centuries, a large unidentified body of light-skinned blue-eyed people migrated from South of the Caucuses into Kingdom of Khazaria.

3. During the Islamic expansion of the 8th century, a Moslem army under Abdel Rahman tried to invade Europe through a pass in the Caucasus, but Khazarian armies defeated him. Were it not for the bulwark of Khazaria, Christian Europe could have fallen to Islam from the East.

4. Not wanting religious wars to divide his country, the King of the Khazars ordered three missionaries to appear before his court: a Christian monk, a Jewish priest and a Moslem Imam.

5. After carefully listening to the arguments of each, the King of the Khazars chose Judaism to be the state religion!

6. Later, the people in Khazaria clinging to Judaism emigrated to Europe, where they became known as Ashkenazi Jews.

Leviticus 26:33 “And I will . . . draw out a sword after you.”

7. Then came Hitler and the Holocaust, in which the Nazis in their death camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Buchenwald, Treblinka, and in over 1000 ghettos, tried but failed to exterminate the Ashkenazi Jews.

Deuteronomy 4:30-31 “When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.”

8. After the Holocaust, what was left of the Ashkenazi Jews fled Europe and immigrated to the holy land.

Jeremiah 29:14 “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.”

9. In 1948 A.D., the new sovereign nation of Israel was established by what were primarily Ashkenazi Jews. Then in 1967, by those same ten “lost” tribes, Jerusalem was finally freed of Gentile control for the first time in 2573 years!

HIS PREMISE.................